What Can IUBB do to Revive Your Excitement/Confidence?

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Obviously I'm a critic of Archie. Have been since the beginning. I've held out some hope because I have to. But is this the peak of what Archie can give us? Is this just who we are under him? Is this Indiana basketball now? Is this what we want? To me, we look more like a "solid" program. One of those that always play hard, a tough out each night but never really enough to actually compete for a league title or a run in the NCAA tourney. Almost a gimmick. Where a 5 seed is an awesome season. Where beating Michigan State is the high and no shows happen too often. Sure we are great on defense but "only if we could hit some shots" is said far too often. Can we not build and "get old" but also be super talented like UNC and Kansas? Be great on offense and defense and look like a well oiled machine most of the time rather than just a game or two? 

So is it time to move on from Archie or just finally time to accept what we are?

[LamarCheeks]

Since you're a critic (obviously), my guess is you're trying to justify your narrative -- which is strewn relentlessly throughout this board. Since you've written over and and over and over and over again how you feel about Archie, my only question would be -- is this thread really even necessary? 

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Obviously I'm a critic of Archie. Have been since the beginning. I've held out some hope because I have to. But is this the peak of what Archie can give us? Is this just who we are under him? Is this Indiana basketball now? Is this what we want? To me, we look more like a "solid" program. One of those that always play hard, a tough out each night but never really enough to actually compete for a league title or a run in the NCAA tourney. Almost a gimmick. Where a 5 seed is an awesome season. Where beating Michigan State is the high and no shows happen too often. Sure we are great on defense but "only if we could hit some shots" is said far too often. Can we not build and "get old" but also be super talented like UNC and Kansas? Be great on offense and defense and look like a well oiled machine most of the time rather than just a game or two? 
So is it time to move on from Archie or just finally time to accept what we are?

I think we’ve pretty much accepted who we are long ago. Archie and staff are trying really hard make it work.

He’s competitive and he hates to lose, but he’s a good coach and not a great coach. He’s a good recruiter, not a great recruiter.

We seem destined to be a “good” team and not a great team. We aren’t building any dynasties, that’s for certain.

Illinois shows how to build a powerhouse rather quickly. We are TJD and some dudes. Illinois rolls 3 legit studs out there and boom.

All Archie needs to do is find a way to get 3 studs on the roster at a given time. LeBron has repeated this formula over and over. Archie’s trying to win games like Wisconsin, with older, tougher teams.

Idk, I’m just underwhelmed with his coaching and recruiting.

Call it 2020, call it whatever, but the crappy results continue to be less painful each year. I’ll watch every game we play this season and enjoy it regardless, but knowing we are a 20-40 type team at best with ceiling takes all the excitement away.




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[cappymo14]

 

We are TJD and some dudes. Illinois rolls 3 legit studs out there and boom.

 

All Archie needs to do is find a way to get 3 studs on the roster at a given time.

 

 

 

 

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I truly feel like this is the best description of the Indiana basketball program. This didn’t start with Archie though, it’s been going on for decades. One highly ranked recruit on a team of average Joe’s. Just enough to get us firmly stuck in mediocrity. I completely agree 100% on this. Hell, give me even 2 studs on the same club. 2 killers, a Race Thompson/Freddie McSwain type, and a 3 & D guy. Man we haven’t had that but 1 season in the last 20.

 

 

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[Hoosierfan2017]

Can’t say I really disagree with LCS here honestly. This season looks like a repeat of last season. We aren’t terrible, and we aren’t great. We might be good enough to get into the tournament and we might not. I never know which team will show up when the referee throws the ball up. Will they fight and compete? Or will they go through the motions and look like they don’t care? With no top talent coming in next year at this point, our next season will be even worse unless TJD comes back.

And the worst part is that I’m not even all that mad anymore. I’ve accepted our fate. Maybe iufb being good now has helped me there. With Crean, I thought that if we just fired him we’d be able to get back to the top of college basketball. Now, though, I think that even if we fire Archie the next guy won’t do any better. I don’t see a path to the upper echelon of college basketball for IU. It is what it is. 

[TheWatShot]

I've felt from the beginning he would get 5 years. If we're still struggling to make the tourney and finish in the top half of the league next season, then I think we move on. 

 

[HoosierAloha]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I think we’ve pretty much accepted who we are long ago. Archie and staff are trying really hard make it work.

He’s competitive and he hates to lose, but he’s a good coach and not a great coach. He’s a good recruiter, not a great recruiter.

We seem destined to be a “good” team and not a great team. We aren’t building any dynasties, that’s for certain.

Illinois shows how to build a powerhouse rather quickly. We are TJD and some dudes. Illinois rolls 3 legit studs out there and boom.

All Archie needs to do is find a way to get 3 studs on the roster at a given time. LeBron has repeated this formula over and over. Archie’s trying to win games like Wisconsin, with older, tougher teams.

Idk, I’m just underwhelmed with his coaching and recruiting.

Call it 2020, call it whatever, but the crappy results continue to be less painful each year. I’ll watch every game we play this season and enjoy it regardless, but knowing we are a 20-40 type team at best with ceiling takes all the excitement away.




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Just like having three legit studs on a team a coach needs to do several things well, at the same time.

We've seen stretches of great recruiting and great offense but the defense was garbage and the recruiting was hit or miss.  I feel like now we're in a similar stretch but the opposite.  We've had some studs that didn't stay and we're great at defense.

A coach can have many attributes that he extends to his teams; tough, smart, experienced, offense, defense, shooters, length, athleticism, etc.  To win big you need to have a 1) a system that wins 2) recruit players that fit the system and 3) player development.

I'm honestly not sure Archie has a system that can win at a high level, he has recruited more towards his system, but has lacked overall player development.  IF he's going to right the ship I believe he needs to tweak his system, recruit the players that fit that tweak, and needs to get way better player development.  The player development might be something he can bring in an assistant to help or maybe one of the newer assistants was brought in to do this.

 

[HoosierAloha]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Can’t say I really disagree with LCS here honestly. This season looks like a repeat of last season. We aren’t terrible, and we aren’t great. We might be good enough to get into the tournament and we might not. I never know which team will show up when the referee throws the ball up. Will they fight and compete? Or will they go through the motions and look like they don’t care? With no top talent coming in next year at this point, our next season will be even worse unless TJD comes back.

And the worst part is that I’m not even all that mad anymore. I’ve accepted our fate. Maybe iufb being good now has helped me there. With Crean, I thought that if we just fired him we’d be able to get back to the top of college basketball. Now, though, I think that even if we fire Archie the next guy won’t do any better. It is what it is. 

Starts above Archie...

[Magnanimous]

We would’ve won the national championship last year if the tournament had been played. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

52 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Starts above Archie...

Unfortunate but true. I think that’s a big reason why I’m indifferent at this point. I don’t dislike Archie. I think he’s an above average coach. I want him to be successful here. But, he has his hands tied by the people above him. If he was allowed to go out and do what some of these other coaches are allowed to do, I think he’d be able to do just as well as them. For whatever reason our school doesn’t want that.

[rcbowla]

In year 3 he was expected to make the tournament. He was likely going to do that as what an 8-10 seed depending on how B1G tourney played out? By year 4 you should expect an improvement from year 3 so like 5-6 seed should seem reasonable. I do not see a 5-6 seed team here with my eyeballs. If he should have equal or lesser results then I don't see a path to success for Archie. Next year is going to be brutal so I say within the next 2 seasons he's either exceeding expectations or he'll be let go. Bring in the next coach and probably achieve similar results in that we can't seem to out together the entire package of recruiting, offense, defense and player development. Seem to always have just one or two of these necessary cornerstones to a successful program. Counter example is the football team. Achieving best recruiting results ever at IU, solid offense, good defense and pretty exceptional player development......that has translated to success. And that success has come with being at a disadvantage in so many ways in football where as the basketball program has advantages similar to Michigan and Ohio State in football yet here we are.

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[Banksyrules]

I’m in the know when it comes to ACC athletics.  Off the record I know that there is a lot of cheating going on in order to get highly touted recruits. Is IU just playing in a world were everyone is not playing by the same rules? We have the fan base and facilities, just makes me wonder.  

[darB s'tI]

Do we have to start with an opinion? If so, I haven't liked a coach other than Archie since Knight. I know how Davis got the job and he was bad from day 1. There was never an ounce of respect to or from him until the day he was removed. Bad hire. Sampson could coach but was Calipari level dirty. Bad hire. Crean was bad from the very start and got very lucky with Oladipo. Bad hire....wait, this bad hiring is a trend? Archie can coach; he's Tony Bennett - except to be the coach at IU right now is a massive uphill hike. No one wants the job; too much pressure, years of mediocrity and a critical fan base that expects you to come in and reverse a 20 year trend at the drop of a hat. I don't believe in naming kids, but there were some REALLY rotten eggs over the last few years which Archie could not remove due to the situation Crean left him. The guys he inherited weren't willing to play the way he coached, and also didn't care to try. Some never should have been given a scholarship to begin with. All that said, I actually like what I see out of Archie and also think Cliff Marshall has presented a lot of our shooting issues with turning the kids into mini-body-builders (it's a problem). Archie has recruited very well; people are SO critical when we miss on a Trey Kaufman type, but look at what/who he has brought in. Imagine if TJD had gone to Purdue. Or Lander to UK. Or Romeo to Louisville. Nope, they all came to Bloomington, plus more. Hunter, Galloway, Leal, Rob...he is getting the guys he wants; the simply don't always pan out until they're a JR or SR. We played FSU, on the road and largely outsized, to a squeaker in overtime. Some poor and selfish decisions were made near in OT, which if you were watching, did not thrill Archie. Those "hero ball" quick offensive sets cost us the game, but they're going to correct themselves. We're way, way better than we were last year. We're disciplined, and that's powerful. Last year we were not. And 2 losses to 2 really good teams doesn't mean jack right now. Duke has 2 losses with nothing but 5 stars. UK, 1-3 with all future NBA players. Purdue, 2 bad losses. UVA - not a great start. Also, just my opinion, but IL is a live-and-die by the tempo of the game team. They'll take their lumps... Archie deserves more credit than many give him. There's no one that wants this job, so if we give him the guillotine, who exactly is coming to Bloomington to save the day? "Billy Donovan", right?

[Uspshoosier]

Answer is still the same as it was the last 2 Years you have made a thread similar 2 this one.   it depends on each individual as to whether the writing is on the wall for him as coach.   For some the writing was on the wall the minute he was hired, for others the writing began forming on the wall after a couple years and for others the answer is still no.    Look forward to nexts years version of this thread.    I might just copy and paste this one for next year 

[triple]

2 hours ago, IU-DL said:

Duke has 2 losses with nothing but 5 stars. UK, 1-3 with all future NBA players. Purdue, 2 bad losses. UVA - not a great start. 

I'm really torn on Miller.  The progress is there even though it's very gradual in the making.  And this could end up being a surprisingly good season.  But the difference I see between us and the teams you mention here is that we are a single injury (knock wood that won't happen with TJD) away from ending the year near the bottom of our conference.  And the comment above about weight lifting...that's my biggest gripe.  Much more time shooting over the summer, less lifting.  We'd be so much better!

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

This reminds me of your favorite 45 rpm that you played so much it developed a (skip) developed a (skip) developed a (skip)......

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Answer is still the same as it was the last 2 Years you have made a thread similar 2 this one.   it depends on each individual as to whether the writing is on the wall for him as coach.   For some the writing was on the wall the minute he was hired, for others the writing began forming on the wall after a couple years and for others the answer is still no.    Look forward to nexts years version of this thread.    I might just copy and paste this one for next year 

And THIS is your answer. The fact we all anticipate this debate AGAIN next year means we aren’t a top level team. Simple as that. Winning quiets critics, and Archie hasn’t done it, isn’t doing it, and doesn’t project to do it.

As a fan as it pertains to this discussion it boils down to expectations. The reactions directly relate to expectations. Then it becomes, what expectations are reasonable for Archie in year 4-5?

I want to be an elite, type team. Top 4 in conference. Consistently top 25. It appears me and others have unrealistic expectations for Indiana Basketball.


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[Hoosier Guy]

5 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

And THIS is your answer. The fact we all anticipate this debate AGAIN next year means we aren’t a top level team. Simple as that. Winning quiets critics, and Archie hasn’t done it, isn’t doing it, and doesn’t project to do it.

As a fan as it pertains to this discussion it boils down to expectations. The reactions directly relate to expectations. Then it becomes, what expectations are reasonable for Archie in year 4-5?

I want to be an elite, type team. Top 4 in conference. Consistently top 25. It appears me and others have unrealistic expectations for Indiana Basketball.


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This is exactly where Indiana should be. I’ll take it a step further and say I expect to compete for conference championships and national championships each year as well. There’s no reason this program can’t get back to that

[Str8Hoosiers]

15 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

And THIS is your answer. The fact we all anticipate this debate AGAIN next year means we aren’t a top level team. Simple as that. Winning quiets critics, and Archie hasn’t done it, isn’t doing it, and doesn’t project to do it.

As a fan as it pertains to this discussion it boils down to expectations. The reactions directly relate to expectations. Then it becomes, what expectations are reasonable for Archie in year 4-5?

I want to be an elite, type team. Top 4 in conference. Consistently top 25. It appears me and others have unrealistic expectations for Indiana Basketball.


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8 minutes ago, Hoosier Guy said:

This is exactly where Indiana should be. I’ll take it a step further and say I expect to compete for conference championships and national championships each year as well. There’s no reason this program can’t get back to that

And this is to USPS's point... so many different states of mind tat everybody has their own answer.

Elite for 1 guy is Top 4 in Conference and consistently in Top 25

Elite for 1 guy is Conference Champion & National Championships

And to me it sounds (sorry if I am off here) that both agree Archie is not the guy, or the writing is on the wall, or whatever....

But to me this is a very big distinction... if you want to be Elite for the 1st scenario I believe Archie is there... knocking on the door and not going away.... if you want to be what the 2nd person says is elite then we obviously have a long way to go. I personally think we are heading in the right direction, I like the SLOW process, I don't want to be a 1 year explosion and then disappear again. Archie is recruiting the right guys, they are getting better every year both individually and as a team... the writing is on the wall for a contract extension!

[Uspshoosier]

26 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

And THIS is your answer. The fact we all anticipate this debate AGAIN next year means we aren’t a top level team. Simple as that. Winning quiets critics, and Archie hasn’t done it, isn’t doing it, and doesn’t project to do it.

As a fan as it pertains to this discussion it boils down to expectations. The reactions directly relate to expectations. Then it becomes, what expectations are reasonable for Archie in year 4-5?

I want to be an elite, type team. Top 4 in conference. Consistently top 25. It appears me and others have unrealistic expectations for Indiana Basketball.


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My answer has more to do with the predictability of the poster starting a predictable thread after a loss