Mike Woodson and His Coaching Staff

[DChoosier]

1 minute ago, Demo said:

Don’t get me wrong, the guy failed and you absolutely move on. Just found it interesting how differently he was perceived by that fanbase, and not merely as a coach but as a guy and member of the community. He seemed to be really connected there  and was in no way connected here. Curious.

Yes, I understood what you posted and agree that it is, as you say, curious. And in Fred Glass’s defense many pundits across the country considered the three “hot” young coaches to be Archie, Mack and Holtman and Fred signed Archie. 

[cthomas]

2 hours ago, DChoosier said:

Yes, I understood what you posted and agree that it is, as you say, curious. And in Fred Glass’s defense many pundits across the country considered the three “hot” young coaches to be Archie, Mack and Holtman and Fred signed Archie. 

I don't think he ever recovered from the horrible start he had. His defensive scheme was broken from the beginning here. The worse things got, the more detached he became. I thought it was a good hire at the time, but I was clearly wrong. I think we have the right guy now.

[HoosierHoopster]

2 hours ago, Demo said:

Don’t get me wrong, the guy failed and you absolutely move on. Just found it interesting how differently he was perceived by that fanbase, and not merely as a coach but as a guy and member of the community. He seemed to be really connected there  and was in no way connected here. Curious.

It is curious but it doesn’t really surprise me. Archie is not and never was a bad guy, it’s just that that program and IU are very different animals and for whatever reason he was a fish out of water here. The whole pack line thing - failure here. The demeanor - just not a fit for IU. Then the Covid year that robbed him of a tourney showing. His approach and style just didn’t fit at IU. I wish him well

[Josh]

13 hours ago, DChoosier said:

And Joe Hillman….

Hillman: I called Fred (Glass), we talked a few times, I told him, “This is an absolutely horrible hire.” He said he was sorry to hear me say that. I told him, “I’ll support you and the program, but I think it’s the wrong guy.” Archie never bought into one thing that Indiana was all about. Crean tried, to his credit. Archie, nope.

Am I Joe Hillman?  I definitely told Glass the same thing.  Ehhh but I never got a response.  Guess not.

[lillurk]

There’s something really strange about taking a job at a place like IU and then acting like you don’t care about the legacy.

[Pudman]

Gotta love Coach Woodson. I am about to play at Ultimate Frisbee Nationals in Denver with an IU Alumni team, and he did a sweet and genuine Cameo for the team. I wish he was our Coach this weekend!

Edited July 15, 2022 by Pudman

[Demo]

Of course he’s right. 

 

[Southside]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:27 PM, lillurk said:

There’s something really strange about taking a job at a place like IU and then acting like you don’t care about the legacy.

I'm assuming you're talking about Archie (and I agree).

But I also often wonder how much the BOT and decision makers since Knight, actually cared about the BB legacy. For a very long time it just felt like they gave zero Fs lol. 

Feels different now the way they hired Woody, and let him fill out his staff. I love it. 

On Archie though... Never thought he was a bad guy. Just thought he was perhaps the wrong guy. Perhaps we thought we were getting in on the ground floor and getting a version of his brother lol. Perhaps it was just a lazy pick when we struck out on some bigger names. 

[Honkyman]

10 hours ago, Southside said:

On Archie

Archie was arguably the best coach available if IU was intent on going the traditional route of hiring a young coach who appeared to be on the way up. Archie had a very good reputation when IU hired him and it seemed like a very good hire. But, as it turned out, he was too aloof for IU. He didn't seem to connect well with the IU community or even his players. He recruited Indiana's top two players--Romeo Langford and Trayce Jackson Davis--in successive years. But his inability to land other top players hurt performance as did his coaching style. Once Indiana started losing more than the fan base was willing to accept, he wasn't going to survive. 

[pumpfake]

1 hour ago, Honkyman said:

Archie was arguably the best coach available if IU was intent on going the traditional route of hiring a young coach who appeared to be on the way up. Archie had a very good reputation when IU hired him and it seemed like a very good hire. But, as it turned out, he was too aloof for IU. He didn't seem to connect well with the IU community or even his players. He recruited Indiana's top two players--Romeo Langford and Trayce Jackson Davis--in successive years. But his inability to land other top players hurt performance as did his coaching style. Once Indiana started losing more than the fan base was willing to accept, he wasn't going to survive. 

I can't dispute this.  I also suspect that it's possible that CAM really wasn't overly enthusiastic about IU but it was too good of an opportunity to turn down.  The result wasn't good for either side.

[Dave from Dayton]

Wife and I graduated from IU in Business the year IU basketball went undefeated.  Moved to Madison WI and then to Dayton OH.  Cheered IU every step of the way.  Still do.

Archie Miler did a great job at Dayton.  Team sport emphasis, offense was active.  Defense worked.  Recruiting was sound and improved.  Point guards were very good.  Assists and extra effort were staples.  Definitely, Archie Miller was a button-down-type.  A little like Wooden (The Wizard) but without the questionable recruiting open purse help.  Probably a little like Dakich but without the mouth. 

I went to quite a few U of Dayton games over here.  But I am not an insider.  I do love basketball at the college level.  Well, actually, I loved it more a while ago.  I was pleasantly surprised when Archie was picked for IU.  But I had hoped for a more seasoned coach with recruiting success at major university in a power conference.  I was realistic though.  I thought IU was still at a slight coach hiring disadvantage because of our churning coaches and faulty decision making by the administration.  And lack of a clear strategy to get IU basketball back at the level of being competing at the top the B10 yearly had been all too obvious.

Not really sure what caused the losses at IU during Archie's tenure.  I speculate that there were multiple problems.  Recruiting really truly never clicked.  IU suffered from a lack of a point guard, poor team play, lower efficiencies, low basketball IQ, bad shooters, lack of effort, recruiting didn't fit the schemes, lack of buy-in by players, injuries, disruptions in the locker room, players that didn't like each other, & etc.

At Dayton, Archie had a really short bench.  But his players totally bought in and never quit.  I thought Archie was more flexible at UD but it may have been the players all had relatively high basketball IQs.  They just refused to lose.

Glass seemed to give the coach too many restrictions on recruiting.  The purse was not opened, like it has been for Woodson, relative to excellent recruiters and additional experience at the AAD level like Thad Matta.  Archie may not have been able to clear out the malcontents from the team because of edicts from Glass on Student-Athlete Bill of Rights or some such. And the renewed focus on mainly Indiana High School players was somewhat limiting.  How did all that help the coach recruit tall, long, motivated ballers?  You mean that Josh Newkirk was IU's PG in Archie's first year?  Why did Archie not bring his 4* recruited PG with him?  Ask Glass.  Then Phin had one good year as a freshman.  ugh...  And poor shooting and injuries and early outs in the B10 tourney and side looks from players at each other...jeez.

But Archie Miller, head coach, did not step up.  Why, indeed?  Some people cannot adapt.  Some people work harder but not necessarily smarter.  Who but the administration could have helped shovel out that mess in the Augean Stables?

I think that the IU administration did not put Coach Miller in a position that was enabling.  I blame IU...at the top.  They should have gotten a seasoned coach that would have demanded more or helped Archie succeed rather than set him up for failure.

Just look at what Coach Woody knew what to do and the administration did too.  That is what they learned from Archie and Glass.

 

 

 

 

[IUHoosierJoe]

3 hours ago, Honkyman said:

Archie was arguably the best coach available if IU was intent on going the traditional route of hiring a young coach who appeared to be on the way up. Archie had a very good reputation when IU hired him and it seemed like a very good hire. But, as it turned out, he was too aloof for IU. He didn't seem to connect well with the IU community or even his players. He recruited Indiana's top two players--Romeo Langford and Trayce Jackson Davis--in successive years. But his inability to land other top players hurt performance as did his coaching style. Once Indiana started losing more than the fan base was willing to accept, he wasn't going to survive. 

While I supported Archie until midway through his final year, I never thought he was the best coach available when he was hired.  Chris Beard and Brad Underwood in particular had better track records and probably would have taken the job back then.  And I know people around here don't like Underwood, but I think he is going to have Illinois contending for a long time.  Really glad we have Woodson, though.

[Uspshoosier]

40 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

While I supported Archie until midway through his final year, I never thought he was the best coach available when he was hired.  Chris Beard and Brad Underwood in particular had better track records and probably would have taken the job back then.  And I know people around here don't like Underwood, but I think he is going to have Illinois contending for a long time.  Really glad we have Woodson, though.

Archie didn’t end up working out but at the time of IU hiring him he had a way better track record then the 2 coaches you mentioned.  Archie had multiple ncaa appearances and an elite 8 under his belt while coaching Dayton.   A-10 school but still showed an ability to build a program to consistently make the tourney in a conference that has had success.  It would of been hard for IU to go with coaches that only had only coached Little Rock(although he did beat Purdue) and SF Austin respectively before they would if gotten the IU job.   While those 2 probably ended up being better coaches then Archie at the time IU hired him he was arguably the best choice and the hottest young coach at the time of hire.    Underwood has still never coached past the round of 32 and Beards run with Texas tech happened after Archie was already coach.   

[Honkyman]

1 hour ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

Chris Beard and Brad Underwood in particular had better track records and probably would have taken the job back then. 

There is no evidence either Beard or Underwood would have taken the IU job. They both went where the fit was right at that time.

[Uspshoosier]

7 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

There is no evidence either Beard or Underwood would have taken the IU job. They both went where the fit was right at that time.

Underwood just chasing money.  After leaving SF Austin (pretty sure they had to vacate wins his last 2 years) he went to Oklahoma St for 1 year.   Lost in the first round and bounced for more money at Illinois( pretty sure one of his assistants got in trouble that year as well).   I see a pattern with him that probably wouldn’t set well with IUs way of doing things 

[Josh]

37 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Archie at the time IU hired him was arguably the best choice and the hottest young coach at the time of hire. 

I'm glad you put the word "arguably" in there!

[Honkyman]

21 minutes ago, Josh said:

I'm glad you put the word "arguably" in there!

There were some that made that argument. I wasn't one of them.

[lillurk]

43 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Underwood just chasing money.  After leaving SF Austin (pretty sure they had to vacate wins his last 2 years) he went to Oklahoma St for 1 year.   Lost in the first round and bounced for more money at Illinois( pretty sure one of his assistants got in trouble that year as well).   I see a pattern with him that probably wouldn’t set well with IUs way of doing things 

Yeah not a great culture fit, perhaps. In Underwood’s defense, the OK St. contract was a real short-term “prove it” situation, with no long-term security or buyout, he had a good Y1, they didn’t pay up, and Illinois did. Given that Illinois is a much better job than OK St. even $/security aside, I find it hard to fault him there.

[lillurk]

5 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

There were some that made that argument. I wasn't one of them.

Personally I was disappointed but willing to wait and see. In hindsight Woodson would’ve been interesting even then and was interested, per Woj’s contemporaneous reporting.

My “realistic” 2017 pick at the time would’ve been Holtmann…maybe it’s true he would not have taken the job under any circumstance, as has been widely rumored. I don’t get the impression IU actually made him say no. In the years since I’ve cooled on him a little — good coach, pretty good IU culture fit, may not have the upside.

I know the Donovan/Albers/horse farm thing is a punchline, but Donovan is who I really wanted, and like Holtmann I don’t know that IU really made the big godfather offer there.

I’m happy where we’re at now, though of course it would’ve been nice if 2017-2021 had been better.

[8bucks]

On 7/13/2022 at 9:07 PM, Demo said:

I went Flyin’ to the Hoop last January, which is a truly great high school event in Dayton. While there I spoke to maybe half a dozen people who, when they found out I followed IU, absolutely GUSHED over Miller. They loved the dude. Made absolutely heartfelt arguments that his issues had to be related to lack of administration.or fan support. When I tried to explain to them that, no, the guy just never connected with the base and didn’t appear to make a wholehearted effort and appeared to lose the team multiple times and just failed straight from the jump, the more receptive folks were simply flabbergasted and a couple told me straight up that they didn’t believe me. One told me that if Miller couldn’t succeed IU was destined to permanent irrelevance. They weren’t nasty, it’s just how highly they think of the guy. It was eye-opening.

My company was a corporate sponsor during the latter Crean and the Archie years and that gave us some “special” access to some things. There was this private practice they did for some sponsors Archie’s first yr and before we had a chance to meet him our rep spent a few minutes letting us know what to expect about him and his personality. While being warned about a lack of personality our rep thought he was just a basketball geek and that would make up for it. 
 

I met him a few times and he always seemed awkward.  Once he was there with Yeagley and a softball coach. Now Yeagley is a huge name here but you would have thought he would have recognized he was the freakin IU basketball coach and showed some enthusiasm. The softball coach was far more engaging. 
 

none of that would have mattered if he could win. Sadly he could not.