They “Retired” Coach Woodson Thread

[IUCrazy2]

7 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

I will also add one more post on the May debate.

When/if any change happens (even next year), the only way it is May is they couldn’t get another big gun and then somehow convince the people who matter this is the best they can get. No matter how you slice it, this is going to be an expensive  and ugly divorce. That means big donors footing the bill.  This time more than ever, there will be a huge set of restrictions and expectations on that money. 

You can believe in May as much as you want. Plenty of the concerns have been debated. Other P5 programs that might or might not be interested, are not IU and don’t have the history of 4 fired coaches, fan expectations, 9th place avg finish in big ten for 10 years, etc. The only way you avoid another year 3/4 fan meltdown, if it doesn’t go well,  is to have a coach that has proven over and over again he knows how to win. Then fans can’t lose it, pick apart everything etc and would have to allow for it to grow. 

I cannot see any booster being okay with anything but a sure thing and proven winner. Don’t kid yourself, this is where the Pearl “info” is coming from. Trilly even stated that but was blown over. That is the type of guy that is going to need to be locked up before they would move and pay it. 

That list is short and only a select few would have the resume AND be willing to take it. Believe it or not, the confidence/arrogance of all coaches does not trump their valid concerns with this program. Why leave a good thing for a mess with crazy expectations. Just win you say?  Plenty of other schools give you 95% to 100% of what IU does without all the extra drama. 

Pearl would probably do it because it was his dream, he probably would love to be THE guy who finally got it done and if it fails, well, he doesn’t have to worry about his next career stop because he is retired then. 

Cronin - next best or the best choice. Proven winner but the pearl clutching over yelling at players, making “excuses” etc would have to stop. That guy is a maniac. He would win. He would take it to get back to Midwest and have NIL as he is done at UCLA because of NiL. His number 1 issue with his current job. 

Not a ton more options that are real. Probably 1 or 2 that could be.  If it is a May, TJ, Shrews, etc. those are not sure things and something that can be achieved cheaper and later. IU won’t pay this without donors. They should but won’t. They won’t even pay for proper facilities without support even with the gravy factory form TV revenue. 
 

No, I do think he will be fired nor should he be for many reasons but this post is already a novel. If they can lock up a sure thing, that would be my number 1 concern with making this change now. Can’t, I see major issues with it.

Your commitment to going down with the ship is commendable captain.  I will remember your bravery (obstinance?) from the rescue ship.  And if that rescue boat proves to be rickety, well, I guess we deal with that as it comes.  What I do know is that you are on the Titanic playing the violin.

[Chris007]

I noticed someone asked Osterman to put out a puff piece saying he expects Woodson to be back. That dude has never been able to read a room. Rabby on the other hand printed a piece yesterday that laid out a bunch of facts that stated how bad it is right now. 

[Chris007]

27 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Your commitment to going down with the ship is commendable captain.  I will remember your bravery (obstinance?) from the rescue ship.  And if that rescue boat proves to be rickety, well, I guess we deal with that as it comes.  What I do know is that you are on the Titanic playing the violin.

Haha, I thought the same thing. No one is ever going to question his loyalty. 

[JSHoosier]

4 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Haha, I thought the same thing. No one is ever going to question his loyalty. 

Running for president of the Coach Woodson Fan Club. Not many people left at this point.

[AH1971]

9 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

Running for president of the Coach Woodson Fan Club. Not many people left at this point.

Almost an uncontested election at this point

[Dave from Dayton]

1 hour ago, JSHoosier said:

Running for president of the Coach Woodson Fan Club. Not many people left at this point.

By not having an experienced, smart, capable Big Ten level point guard on the team, to me, seems the single biggest impediment to IU competing a lot better.  To compete at the highest levels, there are other things.  We all know what they are.  (Shooters, playmakers, discipline, improvement, yada yada...)

By Coach Woodson's and his recruiting staff's wiffing on getting a really decent PG (and shooters & etc.), this season is punked.  

And the pitchforks and torches are out because the staff didn't bring home that bacon.  So let's all throw them under the bus.  Right?

So those that think that Dolson can wave the magic wand and pull in a great head coach candidate that will pull multiple rabbits out of the hat for IU...  I say, yeah right.  

How many years have IU's ADs tried?  Hmmm....since about 2000.   So, g'bye Woody and staff.  Hello coach turnover conveyor belt.  Turn the page.  New chapter in IU tosses old coach and gets a new one.

Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss.  Ware leaves.  Reneau leaves.  Mgbako leaves.  IU doesn't have a good PG for 2 seasons.  MAC castoffs come to IU and pretend to be B1G contenders.   Can't recruit.  Down the tubes in '24, '25.. '26.

Toss coach under the buss.  Meet the new boss.  Samo...

Sure, Woody is struggling.  The starting five is flawed.  The bench is flawed.  Without shooters and playmakers, what the heck did people think was going to happen this season?  Is this all on Woody.  Oh, yes.  But is it?

Is it because his recruiting philosophy was wrong?  Or is it because he is an inept college coach and can't develop or put them in positions to take advantage of their skills?  Or both?  Or maybe there's something more wrong at IU.

I wish I knew.  Definitely the recruiting failed.  I don't think many coaches could do much more with this team.  Others disagree.  So should Woody get another year? Is that the right question? 

If I were Dolson or Woody at the beginning of this season...we would be working on the recruiting angle.  Getting a recruiting plan in place with the right staff to ensure a better product on the court. If Dolson didn't ensure that.  Then the Trustees should know that by now.  Churning coaches is not the solution.  Having a plan and implementing it properly is the job of the Trustees, the AD, the Coach and staff, and the Administration at the top.  

To me...that is the failure right now.  But go ahead and throw Woody under the bus.  It looks like he is the most...ah...expendable? And someone has to go.  Not the AD.  Not the Trustees.  Heaven knows who the heck is really responsible.   

 Really?  Again?  Let's hire the flavor of the month.  Dusty May or Anthony Grant or some older, established and certified winner...  The new Sampson or Archie or Crean?

Keep churning. Keep your expectations really high.  Drama Queens.

Help is on the way.

Great.

Fine.

Ugh.

 

 

 

[8bucks]

8 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

I will also add one more post on the May debate.

When/if any change happens (even next year), the only way it is May is they couldn’t get another big gun and then somehow convince the people who matter this is the best they can get. No matter how you slice it, this is going to be an expensive  and ugly divorce. That means big donors footing the bill.  This time more than ever, there will be a huge set of restrictions and expectations on that money. 

You can believe in May as much as you want. Plenty of the concerns have been debated. Other P5 programs that might or might not be interested, are not IU and don’t have the history of 4 fired coaches, fan expectations, 9th place avg finish in big ten for 10 years, etc. The only way you avoid another year 3/4 fan meltdown, if it doesn’t go well,  is to have a coach that has proven over and over again he knows how to win. Then fans can’t lose it, pick apart everything etc and would have to allow for it to grow. 

I cannot see any booster being okay with anything but a sure thing and proven winner. Don’t kid yourself, this is where the Pearl “info” is coming from. Trilly even stated that but was blown over. That is the type of guy that is going to need to be locked up before they would move and pay it. 

That list is short and only a select few would have the resume AND be willing to take it. Believe it or not, the confidence/arrogance of all coaches does not trump their valid concerns with this program. Why leave a good thing for a mess with crazy expectations. Just win you say?  Plenty of other schools give you 95% to 100% of what IU does without all the extra drama. 

Pearl would probably do it because it was his dream, he probably would love to be THE guy who finally got it done and if it fails, well, he doesn’t have to worry about his next career stop because he is retired then. 

Cronin - next best or the best choice. Proven winner but the pearl clutching over yelling at players, making “excuses” etc would have to stop. That guy is a maniac. He would win. He would take it to get back to Midwest and have NIL as he is done at UCLA because of NiL. His number 1 issue with his current job. 

Not a ton more options that are real. Probably 1 or 2 that could be.  If it is a May, TJ, Shrews, etc. those are not sure things and something that can be achieved cheaper and later. IU won’t pay this without donors. They should but won’t. They won’t even pay for proper facilities without support even with the gravy factory form TV revenue. 
 

No, I do think he will be fired nor should he be for many reasons but this post is already a novel. If they can lock up a sure thing, that would be my number 1 concern with making this change now. Can’t, I see major issues with it.

It seems some only read your last paragraph and have missed several good points.  We are looking for some big $s to come in and pay a large buyout and those same people should be asking what are we going to do differently this time to ensure we get it right.  Perhaps, if the wheels fall off completely the rest of the year they might feel a change is necessary regardless but if I were being asked once again to put up big money for a buyout I would want more certainty that we get it right.  For Dusty to fall into this tier he would have to have an incredible run in the NCAAT which is an almost unfair expectation but is probably necessary for him to pass up some older, more established coaches who have proven over time they can build a top 20 team year after year.

[ISP]

16 hours ago, Hoosier2014 said:

Maybe the selection committee can do us a solid and put Auburn and FAU as a round of 32 matchup. Winner gets the IU job and sweet 16 appearance.

This sounds so familiar... when Dayton and Wichita State played in the round of 32. I remember thinking "man, these teams play such great ball, I'd be happy to have either of these 2 coaches. 

But yes, I'd still take May or Pearl in a heartbeat. 

[kottke]

4 minutes ago, ISP said:

This sounds so familiar... when Dayton and Wichita State played in the round of 32. I remember thinking "man, these teams play such great ball, I'd be happy to have either of these 2 coaches. 

But yes, I'd still take May or Pearl in a heartbeat. 

I remember that also. It was Gregg Marshall vs Archie...winner get's the IU job lol. I think that might have also been the game where Marshall's wife was a weeeeeee bit intoxicated and making an a** of herself.

[Chris007]

4 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

It seems some only read your last paragraph and have missed several good points.  We are looking for some big $s to come in and pay a large buyout and those same people should be asking what are we going to do differently this time to ensure we get it right.  Perhaps, if the wheels fall off completely the rest of the year they might feel a change is necessary regardless but if I were being asked once again to put up big money for a buyout I would want more certainty that we get it right.  For Dusty to fall into this tier he would have to have an incredible run in the NCAAT which is an almost unfair expectation but is probably necessary for him to pass up some older, more established coaches who have proven over time they can build a top 20 team year after year.

For me, this is about the future. As many have said we're about to start a total rebuild. Woodson hasn't ever done that. After seeing how he has handled the roster the first three years do we trust him with rebuilding the roster? He has lost the majority of the fans (hence the booing) to have confidence in him getting the job done at his age. We're going to lose players to the portal, with no confidence in him bringing in players, the 25 class is crucial but who wants to come play for a lame duck coach? NIL money will drop from fans. If he is brought back the first loss next season the boos will be back. This stat stood out to me. The last 10 losses have been by double digits. We're not even playing games close right now. I feel like it is do or die for the program. 

I think word has gotten out this wasn't Scott's first choice as coach, so he will be able to correct this mistake now. Woody had the right people backing him, but he made too many mistakes. 

[jbeaman9]

Just now, Chris007 said:

For me, this is about the future. As many have said we're about to start a total rebuild. Woodson hasn't ever done that. After seeing how he has handled the roster the first three years do we trust him with rebuilding the roster? He has lost the majority of the fans (hence the booing) to have confidence in him getting the job done at his age. We're going to lose players to the portal, with no confidence in him bringing in players, the 25 class is crucial but who wants to come play for a lame duck coach? NIL money will drop from fans. If he is brought back the first loss next season the boos will be back. This stat stood out to me. The last 10 losses have been by double digits. We're not even playing games close right now. I feel like it is do or die for the program. 

I think word has gotten out this wasn't Scott's first choice as coach, so he will be able to correct this mistake now. Woody had the right people backing him, but he made too many mistakes. 

I know this is an impossible ask, based on the vibes around where are you and those people you have connections to, what are the hypothetical odds a move is made after the season?

[johnsoniu]

5 minutes ago, kottke said:

I think that might have also been the game where Marshall's wife was a weeeeeee bit intoxicated and making an a** of herself.

There were more than a few of those games, it was kind of her thing his last few years there lol

[JSHoosier]

8 minutes ago, Dave from Dayton said:

By not having an experienced, smart, capable Big Ten level point guard on the team, to me, seems the single biggest impediment to IU competing a lot better.  To compete at the highest levels, there are other things.  We all know what they are.  (Shooters, playmakers, discipline, improvement, yada yada...)

By Coach Woodson's and his recruiting staff's wiffing on getting a really decent PG, this season is punked.  

And the pitchforks and torches are out because the staff didn't bring home that bacon.  So let's all throw them under the bus.  Right?

So those that think that Dolson can wave the magic wand and pull in a great head coach candidate that will pull multiple rabbits out of the hat for IU...  I say, yeah right.  

How many years have IU's ADs tried?  Hmmm....since about 2000.   So, g'bye Woody and staff.  Hello coach turnover conveyor belt.  Turn the page.  New chapter in IU tosses old coach and gets a new one.

Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss.  Ware leaves.  Reneau leaves.  Mgbako leaves.  IU doesn't have a good PG for 2 seasons.  MAC castoffs come to IU and pretend to be B1G contenders.   Can't recruit.  Down the tubes in '24, '25.. '26.

Toss coach under the buss.  Meet the new boss.  Samo...

Sure, Woody is struggling.  The starting five is flawed.  The bench is flawed.  Without shooters and playmakers, what the heck did people think was going to happen this season?  Is this all on Woody.  Oh, yes.  But is it?

Is it because his recruiting philosophy was wrong?  Or is it because he is an inept college coach and can't develop or put them in positions to take advantage of their skills?  Or both?  Or maybe there's something more wrong at IU.

I wish I knew.  Definitely the recruiting failed.  I don't think many coaches could do much more with this team.  Others disagree.  So should Woody get another year? Is that the right question? 

If I were Dolson or Woody at the beginning of this season...we would be working on the recruiting angle.  Getting a recruiting plan in place with the right staff to ensure a better product on the court. If Dolson didn't ensure that.  Then the Trustees should know that by now.  Churning coaches is not the solution.  Having a plan and implementing it properly is the job of the Trustees, the AD, the Coach and staff, and the Administration at the top.  

To me...that is the failure right now.  But go ahead and throw Woody under the bus.  It looks like he is the most...ah...expendable? And someone has to go.  Not the AD.  Not the Trustees.  Heaven knows who the heck is really responsible.   

 Really?  Again?  

Help is on the way.

Great.

Fine.

Ugh.

 

 

 

Woodson never should've been hired, he was never a remotely good candidate.

There was a video posted earlier in this thread. Poor shooting, inefficient long 2s instead of 3s, struggling to guard the perimeter; yeah, his Knicks teams had those same problems. So it's systemic and he's shown zero ability to fix those issues.

Is it on Woodson and staff? Yes, it is. They had a chance to move toward perimeter oriented style and doubled down on playing through the post. Roster isn't great but enough talent to not get punked at home by shorthanded PSU and NW and a Nebraska team that's bad on the road. You don't need talent to play hard either and FTs are the easiest shot in the game.

We probably shouldn't talk about recruiting. There's 1 commit and it's not looking good for the likes of Sisley and Mullins in 2025. They went all in on 3 player for 24, and landed 1.

Giving a bad coach all the time in the world isn't a solution. He said he was hired to be a bridge and a rebuild is needed after 3 years because of how badly it's been handled, that alone should mean year 4 isn't deserved.

[Chris007]

1 minute ago, jbeaman9 said:

I know this is an impossible ask, based on the vibes around where are you and those people you have connections to, what are the hypothetical odds a move is made after the season?

Everything people are saying out loud is he will be back. I will say it has gone from he will get his 4th year, to he will get his 4th year if things don't go off the rails, to everything will be discussed after the season.

But there are whispers that everyone knows this isn't heading in the right direction. That a change needs made but you have to make the right next hire. I think Scott has a list. Can you get all the money lined up, can you make the fiances work? But I think you will lose money in the long run by keeping him. JMO

[Artie86]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

For me, this is about the future. As many have said we're about to start a total rebuild. Woodson hasn't ever done that. After seeing how he has handled the roster the first three years do we trust him with rebuilding the roster? He has lost the majority of the fans (hence the booing) to have confidence in him getting the job done at his age. We're going to lose players to the portal, with no confidence in him bringing in players, the 25 class is crucial but who wants to come play for a lame duck coach? NIL money will drop from fans. If he is brought back the first loss next season the boos will be back. This stat stood out to me. The last 10 losses have been by double digits. We're not even playing games close right now. I feel like it is do or die for the program. 

I think word has gotten out this wasn't Scott's first choice as coach, so he will be able to correct this mistake now. Woody had the right people backing him, but he made too many mistakes. 

..... I can't imagine that the "bus has not already been started"....

[ISP]

2 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Everything people are saying out loud is he will be back. I will say it has gone from he will get his 4th year, to he will get his 4th year if things don't go off the rails, to everything will be discussed after the season.

But there are whispers that everyone knows this isn't heading in the right direction. That a change needs made but you have to make the right next hire. I think Scott has a list. Can you get all the money lined up, can you make the fiances work? But I think you will lose money in the long run by keeping him. JMO

It seems like the likelihood of replacement increases by about +5% with each loss, +5% with each double digit loss, and 3% with each horrid post game presser. 

With that said, if you are Dolson - I don't see how you don't make the move knowing that Pearl is backdoor lobbying for the job. You have to set the "feelings" aside with Woody being an IU saint and make the move because it's a clear path to improving the program. 

[NashvilleHoosier]

10 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

For me, this is about the future. As many have said we're about to start a total rebuild. Woodson hasn't ever done that. After seeing how he has handled the roster the first three years do we trust him with rebuilding the roster? He has lost the majority of the fans (hence the booing) to have confidence in him getting the job done at his age. We're going to lose players to the portal, with no confidence in him bringing in players, the 25 class is crucial but who wants to come play for a lame duck coach? NIL money will drop from fans. If he is brought back the first loss next season the boos will be back. This stat stood out to me. The last 10 losses have been by double digits. We're not even playing games close right now. I feel like it is do or die for the program. 

I think word has gotten out this wasn't Scott's first choice as coach, so he will be able to correct this mistake now. Woody had the right people backing him, but he made too many mistakes. 

Oh we're playing close games. On the flip side, 9 of our 14 wins have been by less than 10 points. Most of the time we're either barely winning or getting blown out. Wasn't there a stat somewhere a few weeks back showing that we were one of the luckiest teams in college hoops based on record/results so far? We're going to end up with a losing record and be fairly lucky that it wasn't worse. Now, I get college hoops is crazy. Many teams have unexpected losses and wins closer than they would have expected, and wins they never expected to get. Our entire resume this season is full of unimpressive wins and embarrassing losses.

[lillurk]

A couple thoughts in the clear light of morning:

1. I don’t doubt IU/Dolson are interested in Pearl. I don’t doubt Pearl is interested sincerely — not of the mind that he’s just lobbying for a raise. But I remain skeptical both sides will ultimately pull the trigger (this is an opinion, no one needs to tell me I’m wrong).

2. Seems like lots of the Pearl-over-May opinion is rooted in an idea that Pearl is already one of the best coaches going and May might get there one day. I think they’re both among the best guys going (and there’s much more to May’s resume than the detractors keep saying).

3. As @RaceToTheTop pointed out, there’s all this hand-wringing about “how would May level up?” But he’s 7-2 — ALL ROAD AND NEUTRAL — against P5 teams in the past two seasons. Even if you throw in the F4 loss to a team as good as most P5 squads, that’s 7-3…70%. You take that. And he would absolutely, positively have more talent at IU than at FAU from day 1.

[Stuhoo]

1 minute ago, lillurk said:

A couple thoughts in the clear light of morning:

1. I don’t doubt IU/Dolson are interested in Pearl. I don’t doubt Pearl is interested sincerely — not of the mind that he’s just lobbying for a raise. But I remain skeptical both sides will ultimately pull the trigger (this is an opinion, no one needs to tell me I’m wrong).

2. Seems like lots of the Pearl-over-May opinion is rooted in an idea that Pearl is already one of the best coaches going and May might get there one day. I think they’re both among the best guys going (and there’s much more to May’s resume than the detractors keep saying).

3. As @RaceToTheTop pointed out, there’s all this hand-wringing about “how would May level up?” But he’s 7-2 — ALL ROAD AND NEUTRAL — against P5 teams in the past two seasons. Even if you throw in the F4 loss to a team as good as most P5 squads, that’s 7-3…70%. You take that. And he would absolutely, positively have more talent at IU than at FAU from day 1.

I bolded the point that is notably fantastic. That, and the retention of his top eight players from last year with no NIL and a 2,900 seat arena?

Dusty May seems special to me.

[RaceToTheTop]

12 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

Always luck involved  teams advancing in the tourney.  Always.   Butler doesn’t make a Final 4 if Pitt doesn’t get called for a foul off a missed FT 94 ft away that gave Butler FTs to win it.  Still one of the craziest endings ever.   Like you said I’d definitely happens more then people realize 

Yes, which is why if you are looking at up and comers you should probably look at the regular season and not the tournament.  Going to need luck to advance far with a team that is less talented than P5 teams.  In those terms, May has succeeded so far.  No guarantees but he does check that box.