Style of Play

[hoosierbgh]

17 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Absolutely, after XJ was done for the season he became a lot of things that he never was consistently. Just like the "last coach's players" line it's easy and convenient.

I don't think that is at all accurate. It was much more of a tendency to minimize X's value as the season went along, especially as IU started winning without him. The truth is he consistently brought on ball pressure and the quickness the rest of the team lacked every game. That alone was significant. He was also the main threat to get to the basket. Beyond that, simply having another player that was capable of running the team and scoring 10-15 points a night would have helped fill in the gaps when JHS had an off game. 

[Honkyman]

12 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I only care about our NIL going toward Ws. 

What makes you think that the NIL money Leal is receiving--largely from local real estate and banking firms--aren't earmarked for Leal because those firms see a long range relationship with Leal, the local star/high school Mr. Basketball? If that is the case--and it would seem to be because why else would the last guy on the bench receive that NIL---then that money is not necessarily available to other IU athletes.

[Chris007]

10 hours ago, DChoosier said:

You mentioned Malik coming back so I wonder who you are referencing in regards to wanting a lot more NIL money.  Among Bates, Gunn, Banks, Duncomb, Leal, Geronimo…who the hell  thinks they are in position to get a huge payday?

I’m curious to hear which names you have heard are looking for a big raise. Kind of interesting/perplexing.

One of these guys wants big money for himself and for his family if what I'm hearing is correct.

[Alford Bailey]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

One of these guys wants big money for himself and for his family if what I'm hearing is correct.

Surely not the guy who went 0-13 in the tourney 

[MikeRoberts]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

One of these guys wants big money for himself and for his family if what I'm hearing is correct.

We all do, but NIl has provided a market value that can be tested. Player says I need $200k and the market determines whether he gets it. Either from the existing university, a new one or neither.

I had a ton of hope for Geronimo and Bates to be awesome this year and they were mostly just ok.

Leal, Banks, Gunn and Duncomb really only played in garbage time.

I like the ide of kids coming in and staying 4 years but there are other options now should they not pan out. Curious if we get a defection or commitment first

[bigrod]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

One of these guys wants big money for himself and for his family if what I'm hearing is correct.

I think that kind of gives it away. I get it, but you have to produce if you want to get paid. Well, I mean that's how it used to work ;)

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

One of these guys wants big money for himself and for his family if what I'm hearing is correct.

Anybody not named Reneau asking for a big pay day is delusional.

[Chris007]

6 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

We all do, but NIl has provided a market value that can be tested. Player says I need $200k and the market determines whether he gets it. Either from the existing university, a new one or neither.

I had a ton of hope for Geronimo and Bates to be awesome this year and they were mostly just ok.

Leal, Banks, Gunn and Duncomb really only played in garbage time.

I like the ide of kids coming in and staying 4 years but there are other options now should they not pan out. Curious if we get a defection or commitment first

Yes, I totally agree with that. It's just funny when a player thinks they are worth a lot more than what market value has shown. But not only want big money for yourself but also ask for money for other family members as well. 

I think a defection first. I think guys in the portal will want to visit here before announcing. 

[HoosierAloha]

2 hours ago, hoosierbgh said:

I don't think that is at all accurate. It was much more of a tendency to minimize X's value as the season went along, especially as IU started winning without him. The truth is he consistently brought on ball pressure and the quickness the rest of the team lacked every game. That alone was significant. He was also the main threat to get to the basket. Beyond that, simply having another player that was capable of running the team and scoring 10-15 points a night would have helped fill in the gaps when JHS had an off game. 

Thank you for providing another example of my previous point.
He could pressure the ball, sometimes that resulted in good defense or picking up back to back fouls.
He could get to the basket, sometimes that results in an assist or turning it over (~1.2/1 ATO ratio against teams with a pulse). Other times he would shoot us out of a game (~38 FG% against teams with a pulse).
He could give us 10-15 points, sometimes even 20+, sometimes (almost just as often) he had some forgettable games (8 against Rutgers on 11 shots, 4 against Nebraska on 8 shots)

He, like many others on this flawed team, were consistently inconsistent.

[Stuhoo]

29 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I think that kind of gives it away. I get it, but you have to produce if you want to get paid. Well, I mean that's how it used to work ;)

Oh...that's most definitely still how it works. Wealthy people contributing to NIL did not get wealthy by being stupid (for the most part lol).

[JSHoosier]

With Bates having a kid I could see him maybe wanting some more in NIL, no clue if that's who it is, but his play didn't really warrant it.

[Stuhoo]

3 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

With Bates having a kid I could see him maybe wanting some more in NIL, no clue if that's who it is, but his play didn't really warrant it.

With Bates I could see a healthy Jakai Newton swatting his sh_t in practice.

[Rico]

12 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

With Bates having a kid I could see him maybe wanting some more in NIL, no clue if that's who it is, but his play didn't really warrant it.

Bates better start thinking about life after basketball with that kid in mind.

[hoosierbgh]

21 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Thank you for providing another example of my previous point.
He could pressure the ball, sometimes that resulted in good defense or picking up back to back fouls.
He could get to the basket, sometimes that results in an assist or turning it over (~1.2/1 ATO ratio against teams with a pulse). Other times he would shoot us out of a game (~38 FG% against teams with a pulse).
He could give us 10-15 points, sometimes even 20+, sometimes (almost just as often) he had some forgettable games (8 against Rutgers on 11 shots, 4 against Nebraska on 8 shots)

He, like many others on this flawed team, were consistently inconsistent.

Actually, you proved my point. You're really shorting a guy that consistently brought energy and effort every game, rather ironically considering the constant harping on it in every game thread. Was it perfect or consistent? Of course not. I'm not sure why anyone would expect flawless teams or players at the college level. As great as TJD was, and I'm not sure many of us will see anything like his performance again in our lifetimes, he was far from flawless. 

X isn't on the same level as TJD and yet, he was often the only one or the only other one besides TJD trying to make something happen in many games in the 21-22 season. When everyone else shutdown and played scared he was the one, often the only one, trying to make something happen. I don't recall him starting out looking for shots or forcing the issue in those games, only after others failed to step up did he assert himself. Then, this year pre-injury he took a step back into less of a focal point and more of facilitator role and we criticize him for not scoring enough. As for fouling, I don't recall him jumping into and fouling 3 point shooters like Tamar, Miller, Race, and JHS did on a depressing number of occasions. Nor do I recall his man blowing by him on nearly every possession or leisurely running the offense without noticeable impediment. This IU team would have been better with a healthy X, mistakes and all. 

We say we want players with some dog in them, that hate to lose more than they love to win. We say we want shooters that aren't afraid to shoot. Then we can't wait to tear down those players when they make mistakes or miss shots or get called for fouls. We say we want "modern basketball" and then we cling to old notions. 

 

 

[Scotty R]

2 hours ago, Chris007 said:

Yes, I totally agree with that. It's just funny when a player thinks they are worth a lot more than what market value has shown. But not only want big money for yourself but also ask for money for other family members as well. 

I think a defection first. I think guys in the portal will want to visit here before announcing. 

Things like this is why I hated all of the NIL in the first place. Knew it was going to be more than players making money on their name, Image or likeness.

[str8baller]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:14 AM, HoosierAloha said:

That's interesting and convenient. There are plenty of good to great teams with a 5 that can't/won't shoot from outside. Actually, TJD would be amazing in plenty of those offenses getting easy buckets from PnR, handoffs/lobs from dribble drive, etc. It wasn't TJD that stopped us from implementing a modern offense.

He didn’t stop us. But he’s an AA and almost unstoppable in the post, so any coach would be brain dead not to play through him a lot. 
 

The bigger question to me was why we didn’t go small and had Race in all the time. I predicted it before the game and said that’s a huge mismatch that we have to win. We didn’t. 
 

Some of it is personnel, I suppose. We really didn’t have another starter quality perimeter player. 

[str8baller]

On 3/20/2023 at 10:12 AM, Stuhoo said:

I think this is an important thread topic.

During the post-game presser last night, Woody gave a 'tell' about the future of IUBB, and I am a big fan of credible 'tells'. When asked about and reflecting on Trayce, Woody went off on a tangent and said that he had to change style of play for Trayce because in all his years of coaching he'd never built a team around post touches by his best player.

So now Trayce is gone. And Woody will be able to build his teams around the style of play that he prefers; three point shooting and spreading the defense out to allow for drivers.,

So get ready, because I suspect that's what is coming, and soon.

Well, we shall see.  
 

Our offense wasn’t really the problem though. Our perimeter defense was as bad as I’ve ever seen and I’m including the Tom Crean years. TJD covered up a lot of mistakes, but I’m literally perplexed on how we went from last year’s D to whatever crap we had this year.  We had no chance all year against teams like Miami and I wrote that here as soon as the selection show ended.   

 

I like Woody. He talks about most of the problems we all see, so I tend to think he “gets it.” But I’m very confused as to why we made no progress in that regard. Same with the rebounding.  
 

I honestly wonder if there won’t be a little addition by subtraction going on. The beginning of the year it looked like we might have some locker room issues, then it seemed to get straightened out. The fact that we have a coach of Woodsons experience that couldn’t make progress on some really fundamental flaws makes me wonder if he didn’t have a couple guys he couldn’t get to buy-in. I’m just guessing tho…

[Alford Bailey]

6 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Well, we shall see.  
 

Our offense wasn’t really the problem though. Our perimeter defense was as bad as I’ve ever seen and I’m including the Tom Crean years. TJD covered up a lot of mistakes, but I’m literally perplexed on how we went from last year’s D to whatever crap we had this year.  We had no chance all year against teams like Miami and I wrote that here as soon as the selection show ended.   

 

I like Woody. He talks about most of the problems we all see, so I tend to think he “gets it.” But I’m very confused as to why we made no progress in that regard. Same with the rebounding.  
 

I honestly wonder if there won’t be a little addition by subtraction going on. The beginning of the year it looked like we might have some locker room issues, then it seemed to get straightened out. The fact that we have a coach of Woodsons experience that couldn’t make progress on some really fundamental flaws makes me wonder if he didn’t have a couple guys he couldn’t get to buy-in. I’m just guessing tho…

Agree with the last paragraph. First time in a long time I rarely question the coaching.  Players weren’t getting it done and usually admitted it afterwards.

[Stuhoo]

33 minutes ago, str8baller said:

The fact that we have a coach of Woodsons experience that couldn’t make progress on some really fundamental flaws makes me wonder if he didn’t have a couple guys he couldn’t get to buy-in. I’m just guessing tho…

Sometimes talented guys buy in but the game just never clicks for them.

[Herotime]

1 hour ago, str8baller said:

Well, we shall see.  
 

Our offense wasn’t really the problem though. Our perimeter defense was as bad as I’ve ever seen and I’m including the Tom Crean years. TJD covered up a lot of mistakes, but I’m literally perplexed on how we went from last year’s D to whatever crap we had this year.  We had no chance all year against teams like Miami and I wrote that here as soon as the selection show ended.   

 

I like Woody. He talks about most of the problems we all see, so I tend to think he “gets it.” But I’m very confused as to why we made no progress in that regard. Same with the rebounding.  
 

I honestly wonder if there won’t be a little addition by subtraction going on. The beginning of the year it looked like we might have some locker room issues, then it seemed to get straightened out. The fact that we have a coach of Woodsons experience that couldn’t make progress on some really fundamental flaws makes me wonder if he didn’t have a couple guys he couldn’t get to buy-in. I’m just guessing tho…

Gotta believe missing XJ had a good deal to do with the drop in defensive intensity. He’s a dawg.