Thad Matta to Butler

[Chris007 43,910]

1 minute ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

Whatever does it for you, man. Don’t shoot the messenger. The fact is the last couple of weeks, starting with the St Mary’s abomination, have been a dumpster fire for us. Having players follow a departing coach (maybe following two departing coaches?) doesn’t help the image. And if either or both of them go there and play materially better, you better believe every big ten coach is going to be pointing that out on the recruiting trail.  

When you go to a lesser team playing lesser competition shouldn’t you play better?

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,298]

When you go to a lesser team playing lesser competition shouldn’t you play better?

This is a good argument. I think Lander was overrated but he’s far better than given credit for. Phinisee was always close. Misses were close. Everything was close. I’d be surprised if they didn’t play well at a Butler. They aren’t bad. They aren’t top 10-15 good. Although I could see Rob being bPG for a top 15 team just fine, just not starter.


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[Dontshootthemessenger 19]

10 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

When you go to a lesser team playing lesser competition shouldn’t you play better?

Butler’s strength of schedule was 22 spots higher than IU’s this season in KenPom’s metrics. The new Big East has been roughly equal with the Big Ten since its inception.  Current Big East members account for 4 of the last 9 NCAA titles.
 

This is a silly argument. If they play better, it’s either because they randomly got better after the move or they got better because they had better coaching. It will not be related to the level of their competition.  It will look bad. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dontshootthemessenger

[str8baller 5,214]

11 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

Do you really not see how the calculus is different when you’re 34 and have made little money versus 54 and have made a ton of money?

Absolutely. At 34 you’re hungry, full of vigor and primed for success. At 54 having been out of the game for 5 years you’re looking for a transition into retirement. Let’s not act like the guy wasn’t gently showed the door at O$U. 
 

I like Butler and Matta. But this is Butler teaching after having failed; it’s not an IU issue.  there’s a lot of nervous  people on here I wouldn’t let carry the eggs home from the grocery. 
 

To wit….

11 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

Whatever does it for you, man. Don’t shoot the messenger. The fact is the last couple of weeks, starting with the St Mary’s abomination, have been a dumpster fire for us. Having players follow a departing coach (maybe following two departing coaches?) doesn’t help the image. And if either or both of them go there and play materially better, you better believe every big ten coach is going to be pointing that out on the recruiting trail.  

lmao…who cares? All kinds of nonsense  gets spread on the recruiting trail. IU’s not losing recruits because Phinisee goes to play pg at a .500 BE program. 

[Dontshootthemessenger 19]

5 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Absolutely. At 34 you’re hungry, full of vigor and primed for success. At 54 having been out of the game for 5 years you’re looking for a transition into retirement. Let’s not act like the guy wasn’t gently showed the door at O$U. 
 

I like Butler and Matta. But this is Butler teaching after having failed; it’s not an IU issue.  there’s a lot of nervous  people on here I wouldn’t let carry the eggs home from the grocery. 
 

To wit….

lmao…who cares? All kinds of nonsense  gets spread on the recruiting trail. IU’s not losing recruits because Phinisee goes to play pg at a .500 BE program. 

You’re not paying attention. I’m obviously not arguing they’re going to lose recruits because he transferred. I’m arguing that it will be a potent argument if someone can legitimately say “remember when IU got 5 star PG like you - that Kristian Lander - he was awful at IU and didn’t develop at all in two years there. He left and went elsewhere and was a whole lot better. Must be an IU problem.” That’s a powerful argument if it looks legitimate from the outside. 
 

(to be clear: I don’t think it’s an IU problem with Lander. I think he’s just bad. But I worry about what it looks like and the implications of that if he does get significantly better elsewhere.) 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dontshootthemessenger

[Stuhoo 80,505]

14 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

You’re not paying attention. I’m obviously not arguing they’re going to lose recruits because he transferred. I’m arguing that it will be a potent argument if someone can legitimately say “remember when IU got 5 star PG like you - that Kristian Lander - he was awful at IU and didn’t develop at all in two years there. He left and went elsewhere and was a whole lot better. Must be an IU problem.” That’s a powerful argument if it looks legitimate from the outside. 
 

(to be clear: I don’t think it’s an IU problem with Lander. I think he’s just bad. But I worry about what it looks like and the implications of that if he does get significantly better elsewhere.) 

Lander’s failure didn’t prevent us from getting 5* pg/combo guard Jalen Hood-Schifino, nor did it prevent us from getting four star pg Gabe Cupps.

When Yas or Walsh recruit, I’m reasonably certain that explaining why Lander as an Archie recruit wasn’t good at IU, and whether other coaches are raising that point is very low among their worries.

[Dontshootthemessenger 19]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Lander’s failure didn’t prevent us from getting 5* pg/combo guard Jalen Hood-Schifino, nor did it prevent us from getting four star pg Gabe Cupps.

I’m discussing a scenario where he fails here and then succeeds elsewhere. I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, it could work against us. I think it’s pretty straightforward  to see how that could be the case. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,671]

1 minute ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

I’m discussing a scenario where he fails here and then succeeds elsewhere. I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, it could work against us. I think it’s pretty straightforward  to see how that could be the case. 

Like how Johnny Juzang went and became of collegiate star after being bad at UK... Hurt them Cats like crazy. 

[Stuhoo 80,505]

2 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

I’m discussing a scenario where he fails here and then succeeds elsewhere. I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, it could work against us. I think it’s pretty straightforward  to see how that could be the case. 

When Lander fixes his funky jump shot we can cross that bridge.

[RaceToTheTop 25,618]

20 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

Butler’s strength of schedule was 22 spots higher than IU’s this season in KenPom’s metrics. The new Big East has been roughly equal with the Big Ten since its inception.  Current Big East members account for 4 of the last 9 NCAA titles.
 

This is a silly argument. If they play better, it’s either because they randomly got better after the move or they got better because they had better coaching. It will not be related to the level of their competition.  It will look bad. 

Butler was 121 on Pom this year.  They have had losing seasons three of the last four years.  Going to Butler most definitely assured him more playing time than here.

 

[RaceToTheTop 25,618]

6 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

I’m discussing a scenario where he fails here and then succeeds elsewhere. I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, it could work against us. I think it’s pretty straightforward  to see how that could be the case. 

The transfer portal is full of players who didn’t succeed where they were and are moving on.  Hell, if Lander HAD succeeded at IU, he might still be here as the starting pg and JHS would have looked elsewhere.

[jk34 1,105]

15 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Lander’s failure didn’t prevent us from getting 5* pg/combo guard Jalen Hood-Schifino, nor did it prevent us from getting four star pg Gabe Cupps.

When Yas or Walsh recruit, I’m reasonably certain that explaining why Lander as an Archie recruit wasn’t good at IU, and whether other coaches are raising that point is very low among their worries.

Losing Matta and Fife, will have no impact on our program moving forward. For the simple reason, 2 of the 3 recruiters you mentioned above. Love Walsh's comment about getting kids on campus, and letting Woody close!

[RaceToTheTop 25,618]

1 hour ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

If you don’t think KL’s upside is worth one of 13 scholarships, or that Phin is worth having as a handler, even off the bench, I don’t know what to tell you. No one is suggesting you can win big with these guys as your featured players, but are they worth 1 of 13 scholarships, yes.   

So Thad is going to sell them on ‘you’re at least worth being at the end of the bench?’  

[MikeRoberts 6,998]

52 minutes ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

Whatever does it for you, man. Don’t shoot the messenger. The fact is the last couple of weeks, starting with the St Mary’s abomination, have been a dumpster fire for us. Having players follow a departing coach (maybe following two departing coaches?) doesn’t help the image. And if either or both of them go there and play materially better, you better believe every big ten coach is going to be pointing that out on the recruiting trail.  

What? I will never shoot anyone, just the message, especially if it is stupid and makes no sense.

you are not an IU fan and that is ok, just don’t pretend to be. Matta can have our bench, especially ones that have made zero progress while here and wouldn’t be looked at for roles at IPFW had they not been highly ranked in high school.

Shoot the troll, not the messenger

 

[HoosierFan1994 4,745]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

When you go to a lesser team playing lesser competition shouldn’t you play better?

Field of 68 guys (highly recommend you guys listen to them. They are all college hoops junkies like us) said this. Talked about Al Durham. He was the third best player on a B1G team but could be the best player on a Big East team. You are going to see this happen a lot. 

[HoosierFan1994 4,745]

To me, the X news today and Rob leaving have been the two biggest downfalls of this offseason. Rob had a perfect role at IU for us but not for him. He just wants to play more. That being said, Thad leaving I don't think is a big deal. Goodman (I know most of you hate him but he is in the know) pretty much said Woodson didn't even listen to him at all this year. This has zero impact on wins and losses for next year. Part of me does believe the rumor that there was interest between Thad and IU to be the HC but either he wasn't ready or the university felt he wasn't there health wise. Idk... but good luck to him. He was awesome at Butler, Xavier, and Ohio State. But his last few years at Ohio State showed he wasn't there health wise. Look at how much of a grind college basketball coaching is. Musselman just ended his season and he is all in for the transfer portal. Can Thad be all in like he was for most of his time at OSU? 

[DChoosier 8,344]

3 hours ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

If you don’t think KL’s upside is worth one of 13 scholarships, or that Phin is worth having as a handler, even off the bench, I don’t know what to tell you. No one is suggesting you can win big with these guys as your featured players, but are they worth 1 of 13 scholarships, yes.   

Both of those guys seem like really good teammates and people, and I sincerely wish them well, but it won’t exactly rock the college basketball world if we lose a 4 year guard that shot 31% his senior year and a guy that couldn’t get off the bench (and saw little hope for playing time this upcoming season) to Butler. 

[DChoosier 8,344]

2 hours ago, Dontshootthemessenger said:

I’m discussing a scenario where he fails here and then succeeds elsewhere. I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, it could work against us. I think it’s pretty straightforward  to see how that could be the case. 

Duke, UNC, UK and Kansas have all had the same scenario but have somehow survived. Lander leaving, even if he goes on to have a good career, will have zero bearing on IU’s future with recruits.

[GnarlyTimGarl 1,433]

In my opinion, Matta's inclusion to the IU program was weird from the start. He was mentioned as an addition to the program the very same day Woodson was hired which gave the general public a reasonable expectation that he would be an active member of the program from the public's perspective. But yet we hardly ever heard anything about his contributions to the program throughout his year at IU. Was there ever even an interview issued for public consumption? Does anyone really know what he actually did? I know he was in administration but that is very vague. And again, his hire was mentioned the SAME DAY as Woodson's hire. I doubt that was a coincidence.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the inclusion of Matta (and even Fife later on) was a tactical move by the Athletic Department to pacify some of the fanbase/media who had concerns about bringing in an older NBA guy/alum as head coach who didn't have any college coaching experience. Perhaps they thought adding the Big Ten pedigrees of Matta and Fife would lessen the skepticism of a Woodson hire. If that is true then I am left disappointed. If Woodson was/is your guy... he's your guy. Let him build the program HIS way and stay out of the way. Don't force marriages on him. If the athletic department felt that he needed specialized help like a Matta (or Fife) to make the Woodson era work then I don't believe they should have picked Woodson in the first place.

But I could be way off base. I don't care. Let's just win games.

[triple 410]

6 minutes ago, GnarlyTimGarl said:

In my opinion, Matta's inclusion to the IU program was weird from the start.

I agree.  You hire a head coach to run the program, including making decisions about the staff.  It's quite possible that Woody felt like he had one hand tied behind is back last year.