Team Chemistry Issues?

[HoosierDribbler]

13 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

All, had meant to post last night, but fell asleep on the couch....My biggest take away from the game, and what I saw from my seats, was the negative attitude and body language of Green, but specifically Justin. At one point in the first half, he was taken out after a short stint,  walked to the bench, didn't give any high fives, tossed a towel back at the manager in disgust and sat and sulked...Other times he was visibly pissed off that he was being subbed out, and not engaged in the game or with his teammates on the bench. At one point, we had a great stretch, in which the bench was cheering and excited, and he sat stone faced. It was so bad, my wife even commented that all she could do was watch him while on the bench...

Additionally, there was a stretch where Green tried to do a fancy layup on an alley oop that led to a turnover, and was immediately taken out. He ran to the bench, high fived the whole team and even tried to chest bump Hunter. You could tell it was in a mocking manner. In multiple other instances, he was arguing with the coaches, specifically Bruiser Flint.

Those two sat next to each other on the bench, and their body language compared to others, who didn't even get in the game mind you, was glaringly negative.

What keeps CAM from throttling them?  oh yeah, tv cameras. That behavior has to be causing major issues on the team.

[Old Friend]

30 minutes ago, IUrocker said:

Makes you wonder if Archie is hesitant and uncomfortable with getting rid of them knowing they aren’t his players, when you would hope to see it as happening the other way where he would have no problem with it because he didn’t invest in recruiting them so he’d flat out be willing to tell them hey, it’s unacceptable for you to act like this, you’re obviously unwilling to show you care, so be gone. Like I said, he must just be trying to bite his tongue until the end of the season. I get it in a way, but at the same time I don’t because it’s allowing them to keep on with the ridiculous antics. 

Right now?  Archie looks hesitant and uncomfortable.  All the time.   I think there is far more to this than any of us can possibly know.

[323SGrant]

All, had meant to post last night, but fell asleep on the couch....My biggest take away from the game, and what I saw from my seats, was the negative attitude and body language of Green, but specifically Justin. At one point in the first half, he was taken out after a short stint,  walked to the bench, didn't give any high fives, tossed a towel back at the manager in disgust and sat and sulked...Other times he was visibly pissed off that he was being subbed out, and not engaged in the game or with his teammates on the bench. At one point, we had a great stretch, in which the bench was cheering and excited, and he sat stone faced. It was so bad, my wife even commented that all she could do was watch him while on the bench...
Additionally, there was a stretch where Green tried to do a fancy layup on an alley oop that led to a turnover, and was immediately taken out. He ran to the bench, high fived the whole team and even tried to chest bump Hunter. You could tell it was in a mocking manner. In multiple other instances, he was arguing with the coaches, specifically Bruiser Flint.
Those two sat next to each other on the bench, and their body language compared to others, who didn't even get in the game mind you, was glaringly negative.

I feel bad for the guys on the team with good attitudes dealing with these issues. I know it’s hard losing all these games, but you have to work through it.


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[mamasa]

The IU fans that were seated in my area seriously groaned every time Green did anything.  Every time Smith started to shoot, there was a collective sigh.  The Purdue fans were happy when Green came in though....

[Stromboli]

There's a fairly well known Harvard study about the net detriment caused by productive employees that are toxic.  So even though Green or Smith may produce from time to time, the negativity weighs down the entire team.  

 

I'm pretty pro-player in all situations.  But at this point, we are a losing program.  Justin "Low-Light Reel" Smith doesn't play for the team.  Devonte showed promise, but has never been good.  I have heard people fault Juwan, saying he's just not a good leader.  I think he is a very good leader.  But what can you do with an attitude issue like what Green or Smith have?  Is it really Juwan's fault?  What if Archie is a top 15 coach, but he just HAPPENED to have two program-tanking attitudes to deal with on his initial two rosters.  Is it possible?  I think we're all hoping so.  Last night I heard a rumor that Green has been outwardly hateful towards Romeo for most of the season, doesn't even make attempts to hide it.  I've told before of the HH dunk contest, when Romeo won basically on his celebrity rather than dunks, and Justin Smith was downright ugly about it.  He has some resentment.  

 

Our class balance will be off.  If Archie's system takes 3 years to implement, does it reset every time we lose the upperclassmen?  

 

Those of us supporting Archie see the same things as the guys whining for him to get canned.  At this point, I'm hoping that the Smith/Green theory is true, and that the removal of those guys will cure the chemistry issues.  And otherwise, this 3pt shooting MUST be an anomaly.  Some of these stat-lines are laughable.  When I saw Cline hit two of those off-balance 3s last night, I was mostly just envious.  Everyone already knows, the loss of an effective perimeter game is worse than just the missed shots, it's the resultant defenses packing the lane.  

 

For now, I'm going with the Job theory.  God himself is testing Archie.  He cursed him with plagues of attitudes and poor shooting.  Struck him down with concussions and blood clots and stretched thumb ligaments and deep thigh bruises.  Caused droughts of confidence.  Even blessed him with a Romeo just to have the team smite his success.  

 

Archie didn't have one good season at Dayton.  He had many.  Do we really think Archie isn't as good as Mark Turgeon or Tim Miles or Franimal?  No way.  I graded out Archie as a C last year, and took some flak for it.  This year has been arguably worse.  And I'm still rocksteady in Archie's corner.  

 

 

[Stuhoo]

2 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

There's a fairly well known Harvard study about the net detriment caused by productive employees that are toxic.  So even though Green or Smith may produce from time to time, the negativity weighs down the entire team.  

 

I'm pretty pro-player in all situations.  But at this point, we are a losing program.  Justin "Low-Light Reel" Smith doesn't play for the team.  Devonte showed promise, but has never been good.  I have heard people fault Juwan, saying he's just not a good leader.  I think he is a very good leader.  But what can you do with an attitude issue like what Green or Smith have?  Is it really Juwan's fault?  What if Archie is a top 15 coach, but he just HAPPENED to have two program-tanking attitudes to deal with on his initial two rosters.  Is it possible?  I think we're all hoping so.  Last night I heard a rumor that Green has been outwardly hateful towards Romeo for most of the season, doesn't even make attempts to hide it.  I've told before of the HH dunk contest, when Romeo won basically on his celebrity rather than dunks, and Justin Smith was downright ugly about it.  He has some resentment.  

 

Our class balance will be off.  If Archie's system takes 3 years to implement, does it reset every time we lose the upperclassmen?  

 

Those of us supporting Archie see the same things as the guys whining for him to get canned.  At this point, I'm hoping that the Smith/Green theory is true, and that the removal of those guys will cure the chemistry issues.  And otherwise, this 3pt shooting MUST be an anomaly.  Some of these stat-lines are laughable.  When I saw Cline hit two of those off-balance 3s last night, I was mostly just envious.  Everyone already knows, the loss of an effective perimeter game is worse than just the missed shots, it's the resultant defenses packing the lane.  

 

For now, I'm going with the Job theory.  God himself is testing Archie.  He cursed him with plagues of attitudes and poor shooting.  Struck him down with concussions and blood clots and stretched thumb ligaments and deep thigh bruises.  Caused droughts of confidence.  Even blessed him with a Romeo just to have the team smite his success.  

 

Archie didn't have one good season at Dayton.  He had many.  Do we really think Archie isn't as good as Mark Turgeon or Tim Miles or Franimal?  No way.  I graded out Archie as a C last year, and took some flak for it.  This year has been arguably worse.  And I'm still rocksteady in Archie's corner.  

 

 

 

GREAT post.

 

[Chris007]

6 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

There's a fairly well known Harvard study about the net detriment caused by productive employees that are toxic.  So even though Green or Smith may produce from time to time, the negativity weighs down the entire team.  

 

I'm pretty pro-player in all situations.  But at this point, we are a losing program.  Justin "Low-Light Reel" Smith doesn't play for the team.  Devonte showed promise, but has never been good.  I have heard people fault Juwan, saying he's just not a good leader.  I think he is a very good leader.  But what can you do with an attitude issue like what Green or Smith have?  Is it really Juwan's fault?  What if Archie is a top 15 coach, but he just HAPPENED to have two program-tanking attitudes to deal with on his initial two rosters.  Is it possible?  I think we're all hoping so.  Last night I heard a rumor that Green has been outwardly hateful towards Romeo for most of the season, doesn't even make attempts to hide it.  I've told before of the HH dunk contest, when Romeo won basically on his celebrity rather than dunks, and Justin Smith was downright ugly about it.  He has some resentment.  

 

Our class balance will be off.  If Archie's system takes 3 years to implement, does it reset every time we lose the upperclassmen?  

 

Those of us supporting Archie see the same things as the guys whining for him to get canned.  At this point, I'm hoping that the Smith/Green theory is true, and that the removal of those guys will cure the chemistry issues.  And otherwise, this 3pt shooting MUST be an anomaly.  Some of these stat-lines are laughable.  When I saw Cline hit two of those off-balance 3s last night, I was mostly just envious.  Everyone already knows, the loss of an effective perimeter game is worse than just the missed shots, it's the resultant defenses packing the lane.  

 

For now, I'm going with the Job theory.  God himself is testing Archie.  He cursed him with plagues of attitudes and poor shooting.  Struck him down with concussions and blood clots and stretched thumb ligaments and deep thigh bruises.  Caused droughts of confidence.  Even blessed him with a Romeo just to have the team smite his success.  

 

Archie didn't have one good season at Dayton.  He had many.  Do we really think Archie isn't as good as Mark Turgeon or Tim Miles or Franimal?  No way.  I graded out Archie as a C last year, and took some flak for it.  This year has been arguably worse.  And I'm still rocksteady in Archie's corner.  

 

 

I think this and Hoosier Trav's post are the two best I've read in a while on here. I didn't want to quote both long posts together so I made two posts instead.

[JSHoosier]

If Smith and Green are that cancerous they need to be gone.  I worry about class balance with that much roster turnover so some grad transfers could help, just stay away from guys that didn't contribute much for the likes of St. Mary's.

[pumpfake]

2 hours ago, Chris007 said:

No, but had a close friend sitting right behind the bench tell me all about it this morning. I did see Green on TV get taken out early after a bad turnover and seemed to be jumping up down high fiving all of his teammates. I asked my friend about it, he said he was mocking the instructions of shaking everyone's hand when you come out. Also said they told him to sit between two coaches and he refused until Schilling grabbed him and put him in that seat. 

I don't know if the poster of this thread at HSN is your friend, but they reported the same behavior: thread on hsn

[Napleshoosier]

I’d sit Green and Smith for the rest of the year if this is going on. Hell, I wouldn’t let them dress!


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[yogisballin]

3 minutes ago, Napleshoosier said:

I’d sit Green and Smith for the rest of the year if this is going on. Hell, I wouldn’t let them dress!


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Run em outta here!!! You can't respect your elders then get out

[Hoosierfan0302]

This is what I saw fwiw.

Maybe I'm just seeing things but did anyone else see Green when he was subbed out. He was jumping around high fiving everyone on the sidelines. Schilling looked pissed, grabbed him & told him to sit by Ostrom & Flint. . Greens enthusiasm looked over the top & a little odd. Almost like he was trying to make a mockery of what Archie said about players encouraging each other even if there on the bench. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into something that's completely nothing.


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[Chris007]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan0302 said:

This is what I saw fwiw.

Maybe I'm just seeing things but did anyone else see Green when he was subbed out. He was jumping around high fiving everyone on the sidelines. Schilling looked pissed, grabbed him & told him to sit by Ostrom & Flint. . Greens enthusiasm looked over the top & a little odd. Almost like he was trying to make a mockery of what Archie said about players encouraging each other even if there on the bench. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into something that's completely nothing.


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No you have it exactly right except that Green was told to go sit by those two as soon as he came out and ignored them. That is when Schilling grabbed him and made him do it. 

[pumpfake]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan0302 said:

This is what I saw fwiw.

Maybe I'm just seeing things but did anyone else see Green when he was subbed out. He was jumping around high fiving everyone on the sidelines. Schilling looked pissed, grabbed him & told him to sit by Ostrom & Flint. . Greens enthusiasm looked over the top & a little odd. Almost like he was trying to make a mockery of what Archie said about players encouraging each other even if there on the bench. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into something that's completely nothing.


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I didn't see it, but from several others who did, their interpretation of what happened agrees with yours.

[HoosierAloha]

This is what I saw fwiw.

Maybe I'm just seeing things but did anyone else see Green when he was subbed out. He was jumping around high fiving everyone on the sidelines. Schilling looked pissed, grabbed him & told him to sit by Ostrom & Flint. . Greens enthusiasm looked over the top & a little odd. Almost like he was trying to make a mockery of what Archie said about players encouraging each other even if there on the bench. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into something that's completely nothing.


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My bro in law made a similar comment (he played college ball) about it being over the top. The failed chest bump with Hunter was awkward too.


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[Walking Boot of Doom]

No lie, I hope we never have to speak of Green nor Smith again. We're seeing it on TV, hearing confirmations of it from sources close to the action, and our record is showing that the team is infected. 

I think we all, and the coaching staff, has identified the source of the infection. I want them both gone today. As Chris mentioned, the right thing to do as a coach is to remove them at season end. 

Reading all of those posts really pisses me off as someone who manages teams. Those are the worst people on earth - those who choose to destroy and prevent progress.

Have we confirmed the individuals involved in the locker room fight? A gambler would put down some serious money on Green and Smith versus Romeo.

[yogisballin]

2 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

No lie, I hope we never have to speak of Green nor Smith again. We're seeing it on TV, hearing confirmations of it from sources close to the action, and our record is showing that the team is infected. 

I think we all, and the coaching staff, has identified the source of the infection. I want them both gone today. As Chris mentioned, the right thing to do as a coach is to remove them at season end. 

Reading all of those posts really pisses me off as someone who manages teams. Those are the worst people on earth - those who choose to destroy and prevent progress.

Have we confirmed the individuals involved in the locker room fight? A gambler would put down some serious money on Green and Smith versus Romeo.

48 minutes ago, HoosierTrav said:

When does someone remind Devonte Green that he’s not nearly as good as he thinks he is? Each recruiting service unanimously had him well outside the top 100. They miss a few here and there but not most of the time. Also, his ONLY high D1 offer was from Indiana at a time where slinging mud against the wall and seeing what sticks was full throttle. I pray I never have to see him in an Indiana uniform again. Let him live vicariously off his brothers accomplishments at home in New York.

I went to the roughly the 4:02 mark in the first half. DG makes a terrible decision in transition and it leads to a TO. You can read Archie's lips with something like this "Devonte, what are you trying to do? Settle down" then Archie looks off (to where DG couldn't see it) with just a look of disgust and I gather he's tired of it. Who wouldn't be? 

[Ranger78]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

No you have it exactly right except that Green was told to go sit by those two as soon as he came out and ignored them. That is when Schilling grabbed him and made him do it. 

If this is the case, he needs to go 'now'. I wouldn't wait, until the end of the year.

[Chris007]

Just now, Ranger78 said:

If this is the case, he needs to go 'now'. I wouldn't wait, until the end of the year.

I don't think your alone in that thinking

[Hoosier Guy]

I don’t care about roster turnover at this point. Archie needs to do what he needs to do in order to field his type of team. I’m behind whatever he does