Poll: Archie Miller

[Hoosier Guy]

I still think it’s a good hire. Results have to happen this season though. Saturday was absolutely pathetic. Those guys weren’t ready to play. That’s on Archie. It’s those games that are concerning. Those shouldn’t keep happening. Still have faith he is the guy

[WayneFleekHoosier]

I have faith because I’m convinced he can coach. I don’t think he’s the ultimate strategist but I think his overarching principles can and should work.

I’ve also been worried from the beginning because he is figuring it all out while at Indiana and having to face top competition on a game by game basis from December to March.

So I’m in the middle somewhere but I’m rooting very hard for the guy and Indiana!


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[Stuhoo]

18 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I’ve also been worried from the beginning because he is figuring it all out while at Indiana and having to face top competition on a game by game basis from December to March.
 

 

A point not yet made, and pretty insightful IMO.

 

[TheWatShot]

May not be the best comparison, but I look at what Teri Moren has done with the women's program and hope we may see something similar here. Moren had a decent, but not spectacular, record at Indiana State. Her first season here went very poorly. We had like 4-5 players transfer when it ended. Her second season was better, but we took a step back over the next two. Some people actually wanted her fired for missing the tournament when Tyra Buss was a senior (because you know, missing the tourney at a program that's only been there 3 times ever is a fireable offense). Look at what's happened since. 

 

I'm not saying we'll start hanging banners by Archie's sixth season, but the women's program endured a long, slow climb to respectability because Moren had to drastically change the culture of the program. It's entirely hers now, and it's achieving success like we've never seen. Imagine if we'd cut her loose in 2018, declined the WNIT bid, and started over. We'd probably suck, and no one would care. 

 

I know this isn't the best comparison, given the lack of success historically on the women's side and a lot fewer fans who are fed up with losing, but it's why I'm willing to wait this out. 

 

 

[Old Friend]

7 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I’ve also been worried from the beginning because he is figuring it all out while at Indiana and having to face top competition on a game by game basis from December to March.

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I don't think this is a worry, necessarily.  I have thought similarly, and my example is his pivot in recruiting.  He's not going to win at Indiana with Jake Forrester.  That kind of long, lean athlete who's limited in skill and not very strong can do okay at Dayton.  He cannot at Indiana.  He started focusing on kids who can shoot and all 3 commits next season can do that.  His first class really only included Anderson as a shooter, and Franklin, while he "can shoot," does other things well before that.

Indiana is a unique place.  Almost any coach we hired would have to figure it out.  Davis never did and should never have been given the job.  Crean never did and was a pretty standard hire who ended up being the wrong one.  Sampson was a wretched hire to begin with.  This is a problem that's now a generation old, and any coach is going to have growing pains.  I know some are just fine with a revolving door until we "win now," and I just can't get on board with that at Indiana.  I think Archie Miller is by far the best hire Indiana's made since they punted Knight, and I'm willing to let it play out for another year or two before I raise the red flag.

[WayneFleekHoosier]

I don't think this is a worry, necessarily.  I have thought similarly, and my example is his pivot in recruiting.  He's not going to win at Indiana with Jake Forrester.  That kind of long, lean athlete who's limited in skill and not very strong can do okay at Dayton.  He cannot at Indiana.  He started focusing on kids who can shoot and all 3 commits next season can do that.  His first class really only included Anderson as a shooter, and Franklin, while he "can shoot," does other things well before that.
Indiana is a unique place.  Almost any coach we hired would have to figure it out.  Davis never did and should never have been given the job.  Crean never did and was a pretty standard hire who ended up being the wrong one.  Sampson was a wretched hire to begin with.  This is a problem that's now a generation old, and any coach is going to have growing pains.  I know some are just fine with a revolving door until we "win now," and I just can't get on board with that at Indiana.  I think Archie Miller is by far the best hire Indiana's made since they punted Knight, and I'm willing to let it play out for another year or two before I raise the red flag.

Yeah pretty much. I’m giving him next year if this year is a bust then I’m done. It seems he should succeed and hasn’t. Seems like he tries landing big fish first and then misses. (Hello Crean). He gets quality kids for sure. The question remains can he win with those type? His brother can’t.

Funny thing about your post was Sampson was the only “winner” we’ve had.

Basketball is easy to win now compared to any other sport. Recruit the best/right 2 or 3 guys and win. But at Indiana it’s never that easy.

If we had 2 other guys on this team as talented as TJD we’d likely have a great season.

Theme lately. Media picks us 10th in B1G. Fans in an uproar. Season starts out, with some promise despite scheduling. Then the real season starts and we are pretty much the team everyone besides our fans expect us to be.

I’m ready to be Goliath, not David.



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[Old Friend]

5 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Yeah pretty much. I’m giving him next year if this year is a bust then I’m done. It seems he should succeed and hasn’t. Seems like he tries landing big fish first and then misses. (Hello Crean). He gets quality kids for sure. The question remains can he win with those type? His brother can’t.

Funny thing about your post was Sampson was the only “winner” we’ve had.

Basketball is easy to win now compared to any other sport. Recruit the best/right 2 or 3 guys and win. But at Indiana it’s never that easy.

If we had 2 other guys on this team as talented as TJD we’d likely have a great season.

Theme lately. Media picks us 10th in B1G. Fans in an uproar. Season starts out, with some promise despite scheduling. Then the real season starts and we are pretty much the team everyone besides our fans expect us to be.

I’m ready to be Goliath, not David.



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Help me understand, please.

1) What do you mean by "seems he should succeed and hasn't?"   That seems to ignore the reality of his first 2 seasons, the very obvious longer term strategy.  His 3rd season is only 30% complete and they're 8-1.  

2)  He tried landing big fish and misses?  Langford, Phinisee, Jackson-Davis, Hunter (who was Ohio's Mr. Basketball and #37 in the country), Leal who will be in the conversation for Mr. Basketball....  NO coach gets every kid they're after.   Miller has likely already landed his 3rd straight Indiana Mr. Basketball.  Langford had a different agenda than everyone else on last season's roster.  Why would we want more "big fish" like that?  Unless you want to become a program that recruits most of its roster that way.   Disagree with you, here.  What "big fish" has he missed?   It's certainly not yet an area of concern for me.

3)  Crean won 2 Big Ten titles.  Sampson also paid recruits and allowed them to do drugs in the locker room.  No thanks.  Crean couldn't sustain it, but that is not an accurate statement.

4)  How does anyone know at this point Indiana hasn't recruited the right kids to win?   What does "win" mean to you?   I firmly believe next season is the year to have expectations higher than "Make the NCAA tournament" (which I think is reasonable this season) and I will be happy to explain that if you want.

5)  I don't understand the "theme" comment.  The media knows nothing.  They don't watch games and they generally don't know sports very well.  Bob Kravitz used to get a vote for the Big Ten preseason rankings and that guy has less knowledge of sports and athletes than my dog.  Yes...I have met and talked with him.  He wouldn't be able to name 3 players at more than half the schools in the Big Ten.   What the media says means less than nothing.  And we're in the 2nd season with Miller's players playing for Indiana.  A season + 30% and there's a "theme?"  Disagree.  There's not even a pattern, yet.

6)  It's not a question of talent.  Basketball is a team game and you need players who can play as a unit and the pieces have to fit.  Indiana has plenty of talent.   What they need are leaders and kids playing in the right spots.  They have not had that much in Miller's tenure.  For that reason alone I'm willing to give him grace.

Unless you believe Davis and Hartman's injuries 2 seasons ago along with having to lean on Zach McRoberts is a reasonable season on which to judge Miller's acumen as a coach (I don't), I think it's awfully early to talk about themes and disappointments of not winning.  

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Help me understand, please.
I think it's awfully early to talk about themes and disappointments of not winning.  

I have comments for every section but not getting into each bullet point.

And I don’t. If this year goes like last year, recruiting is dead.

Then watch Michigan, Ohio State, Louisville leave us in the dust.

I know you like long discourse, so if you’d like i can try to post a specific reply tomorrow.


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[WayneFleekHoosier]

Side thought before bed. How about Archie and Staffs decision on grad transfers?

Fitzner was awful. Couldn’t rebound, couldn’t defend. And somehow couldn’t shoot. Played a bulk of minutes.

Brunk. Jury is still out. Clearly better than Fitzner. Not even Bielfeldt. Solid against mid majors. Athleticism likely to expose him. Let’s see what happens to these minutes.

Race as our next option, I guess. So very limited. Above average rebounder. Decent defender. Looks so lost on offense.

Anyway.. I just don’t like our roster like others.

I can’t wait to have them prove me wrong. Please prove me wrong.


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[WayneFleekHoosier]

Side thought before bed. How about Archie and Staffs decision on grad transfers?

Fitzner was awful. Couldn’t rebound, couldn’t defend. And somehow couldn’t shoot. Played a bulk of minutes.

Brunk. Jury is still out. Clearly better than Fitzner. Not even Bielfeldt. Solid against mid majors. Athleticism likely to expose him. Let’s see what happens to these minutes.

Race ( I know he isn’t grad transfer) as our next option, I guess. So very limited. Above average rebounder. Decent defender. Looks so lost on offense.

Anyway.. I just don’t like our roster like others.

I can’t wait to have them prove me wrong. Please prove me wrong.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Help me understand, please.
1) What do you mean by "seems he should succeed and hasn't?"   That seems to ignore the reality of his first 2 seasons, the very obvious longer term strategy.  His 3rd season is only 30% complete and they're 8-1.  
2)  He tried landing big fish and misses?  Langford, Phinisee, Jackson-Davis, Hunter (who was Ohio's Mr. Basketball and #37 in the country), Leal who will be in the conversation for Mr. Basketball....  NO coach gets every kid they're after.   Miller has likely already landed his 3rd straight Indiana Mr. Basketball.  Langford had a different agenda than everyone else on last season's roster.  Why would we want more "big fish" like that?  Unless you want to become a program that recruits most of its roster that way.   Disagree with you, here.  What "big fish" has he missed?   It's certainly not yet an area of concern for me.
3)  Crean won 2 Big Ten titles.  Sampson also paid recruits and allowed them to do drugs in the locker room.  No thanks.  Crean couldn't sustain it, but that is not an accurate statement.
4)  How does anyone know at this point Indiana hasn't recruited the right kids to win?   What does "win" mean to you?   I firmly believe next season is the year to have expectations higher than "Make the NCAA tournament" (which I think is reasonable this season) and I will be happy to explain that if you want.
5)  I don't understand the "theme" comment.  The media knows nothing.  They don't watch games and they generally don't know sports very well.  Bob Kravitz used to get a vote for the Big Ten preseason rankings and that guy has less knowledge of sports and athletes than my dog.  Yes...I have met and talked with him.  He wouldn't be able to name 3 players at more than half the schools in the Big Ten.   What the media says means less than nothing.  And we're in the 2nd season with Miller's players playing for Indiana.  A season + 30% and there's a "theme?"  Disagree.  There's not even a pattern, yet.
6)  It's not a question of talent.  Basketball is a team game and you need players who can play as a unit and the pieces have to fit.  Indiana has plenty of talent.   What they need are leaders and kids playing in the right spots.  They have not had that much in Miller's tenure.  For that reason alone I'm willing to give him grace.
Unless you believe Davis and Hartman's injuries 2 seasons ago along with having to lean on Zach McRoberts is a reasonable season on which to judge Miller's acumen as a coach (I don't), I think it's awfully early to talk about themes and disappointments of not winning.  

I’ll answer a little...

2. The only big fish you named were Langford and TJD. Phinisee wasn’t considered that by any means. He was ranked 135 in the 247composite. Hunter was #59. Leal is #97. You’re definition of big fish is incredibly skewed. Big fish are Langford and TJD. Burger boys. Top 30 guys.

4. As far as winning goes, we should win 25+ games a year and be Top 15 in the nation every year and Top 5 in the Big Ten every year. That’s winning.

5. What the media says is important and kids nowadays SEE IT EVERYWHERE. It’s not 1985 anymore. Facebook, Twitter, SnapChat, Instagram etc all exist. Media is everywhere and at the tips of their fingers. They see Duke and Kentucky. Even local media matters to have a good narrative with. And we are in the 3rd season with Archie’s players. Smith and Al are is. They’ve never been coached by anyone else in college.


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[HoosierHoops1]

6 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

 And we are in the 3rd season with Archie’s players. Smith and Al are is. They’ve never been coached by anyone else in college.


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"Who they've been coached by", doesn't matter as much as, "style they were recruited to play"

 

We are in the 2nd season with his recruits and year 1, had his 2nd highest rated recruit miss the entire year, and his point guard, recruited to play his style (which many consider to be our best on ball defender) missed much of last year  (or was recovering from a concussion) and half this year so far.

 

I think Rob P was what we missed against UW.

[jk34]

7 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I’ll answer a little...

2. The only big fish you named were Langford and TJD. Phinisee wasn’t considered that by any means. He was ranked 135 in the 247composite. Hunter was #59. Leal is #97. You’re definition of big fish is incredibly skewed. Big fish are Langford and TJD. Burger boys. Top 30 guys.

4. As far as winning goes, we should win 25+ games a year and be Top 15 in the nation every year and Top 5 in the Big Ten every year. That’s winning.

5. What the media says is important and kids nowadays SEE IT EVERYWHERE. It’s not 1985 anymore. Facebook, Twitter, SnapChat, Instagram etc all exist. Media is everywhere and at the tips of their fingers. They see Duke and Kentucky. Even local media matters to have a good narrative with. And we are in the 3rd season with Archie’s players. Smith and Al are is. They’ve never been coached by anyone else in college.


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Didn't you just say in another thread that the media gushes over every hire. Discounting what they say. Here you say what the media says is important. 

[Honkyman]

Rob Phinisee played in 32 of 35 games last season. I'm not sure how this narrative developed that he "missed much of last year." I think where it comes from is that overall he wasn't as good a player after the concussion than before. But that's not because he was still recovering from the concussion.  Rob along with almost everyone else on the team did not play as well in conference as they did in non-conference last season. I agree he has been missed this year as he is the only true point guard. But the expectations of how the team will do when he returns may be a bit unrealistic. Rob is a good point guard and may be among the best in the Big 10 next season or the season after.  I don't think this season we can count on him being in the same category as Yogi Farrell or Isiah Thomas, though.

[Walking Boot of Doom]

Didn't you just say in another thread that the media gushes over every hire. Discounting what they say. Here you say what the media says is important. 

Don’t dig up other things people have posted and hold it against them that’s not fair

[kreigh8]

Just now, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Don’t dig up other things people have posted and hold it against that’s not fair

Agreed, but isn't that why this thread was dug up in the first place?

[Walking Boot of Doom]

Agreed, but isn't that why this thread was dug up in the first place?

Well, I was being sarcastic. I think all is fair game. If what you said in the past was wrong, you admit you were wrong and move on.

I was wrong about Crean many times in the past (probably more a case of wishful thinking than true belief, but who knows...) and I think those freaking out over this one game will eventually come to see they’re wrong about Archie.

[Josh]

24 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Well, I was being sarcastic. I think all is fair game. If what you said in the past was wrong, you admit you were wrong and move on.

I was wrong about Crean many times in the past (probably more a case of wishful thinking than true belief, but who knows...) and I think those freaking out over this one game will eventually come to see they’re wrong about Archie.
 

I think this goes further than one game, don't you?

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Didn't you just say in another thread that the media gushes over every hire. Discounting what they say. Here you say what the media says is important. 

They do hush about every hire. That doesn’t mean what the media puts out doesn’t get to recruits. You can have both happen simultaneously.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

"Who they've been coached by", doesn't matter as much as, "style they were recruited to play"
 
We are in the 2nd season with his recruits and year 1, had his 2nd highest rated recruit miss the entire year, and his point guard, recruited to play his style (which many consider to be our best on ball defender) missed much of last year  (or was recovering from a concussion) and half this year so far.
 
I think Rob P was what we missed against UW.

What style is Archie’s? Both can play defense right? Are you saying Archie isn’t a good enough coach to mold players after 3 years? It’s not like either had ever been coached into bad habits. They’ve only learned from Archie. They are his recruits. They are his guys. Plain and simple.


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