Soon to RETIRE Coach Woodson Thread

[JSHoosier 20,914]

1 minute ago, HoosierX said:

Ok, I'm not sure how that relates to my ultimate point though. How does someone prove they want to play at IU vs. getting paid? If they want to play at IU but insist on getting paid fair value, what difference is there really? If that person wouldn't take 5% less to play at IU, does that mean they only care about money?

My post was more about saying the nuance is lost in modern ball. Not really modern considering how long it's happened. There's probably not a way to quantify it, probably won't hear a player took less to go to IU.

[NashvilleHoosier 3,742]

6 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:

So, do you really want to open than can of worms? :D

I don't think this is what the NCAA had in mind when they dreamed up the NIL thing. That said, we have to play if we want any chance of being competitive. But where Indiana is right now is exactly what's wrong with NIL in general, and "paying players" specifically. Because Woodson was either unable or unwilling to recruit HS players as has been done since Dr Naismith hung the peach baskets from the balconies. So now he's scrambling to "buy" a team, and no clue how that will turn out, as it's still pretty early in the cycle. And there's the caveat that it will be a "new" team, and Woodson will be the coach to somehow make it all work. It just creates a whole new excuse if this fails, and if it somehow succeeds, then it will very well become his M.O. going forward.

Personally, buying a team of mercenaries kind of turns my stomach. I understand that UCLA started that (with Wooden and Sam Gilbert), and the Kentuckys, Dukes, Kansases and North Carolinas have never looked back. One could argue that at least it's a fairly level playing field, but it truly does just feel wrong.

Depends what can you’re talking about. The can that is the current NCAA landscape was blown open long ago so no comment by me or anyone else here opens that further. If we’re talking about our fans opinion of NIL, yes, 100%, crack it open. I doubt you’ll get much disagreement on anything you said, including from me. It’s well said. But the most important thing you said is “we have to play if we want any chance.” If you read your full post, I think you do a pretty good job on the argument of why we have to do it. Basically…it kinda stinks, but it’s also been happening forever and now it’s legal and in the open. So, let’s play the damn game as best we can. I’ll go back to my previous comment…if it only makes us competitive, Woody is still toast. But let’s at least play the game to try to be competitive, or even better than that. Worst case scenario we prove to the next coach that we’re serious about NIL. 

[go iu bb 7,098]

16 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:

So, do you really want to open than can of worms? :D

I don't think this is what the NCAA had in mind when they dreamed up the NIL thing. That said, we have to play if we want any chance of being competitive. But where Indiana is right now is exactly what's wrong with NIL in general, and "paying players" specifically. Because Woodson was either unable or unwilling to recruit HS players as has been done since Dr Naismith hung the peach baskets from the balconies. So now he's scrambling to "buy" a team, and no clue how that will turn out, as it's still pretty early in the cycle. And there's the caveat that it will be a "new" team, and Woodson will be the coach to somehow make it all work. It just creates a whole new excuse if this fails, and if it somehow succeeds, then it will very well become his M.O. going forward.

Personally, buying a team of mercenaries kind of turns my stomach. I understand that UCLA started that (with Wooden and Sam Gilbert), and the Kentuckys, Dukes, Kansases and North Carolinas have never looked back. One could argue that at least it's a fairly level playing field, but it truly does just feel wrong.

The "NIL thing" isn't something that the NCAA dreamed up. It was forced on them by trying to hold on to the "amateur" model too long and hard then losing in court. They didn't have a choice and have been powerless to stop it. If they had had to foresight to actually dream it up, it might not have gotten to what it has.

[AZ Hoosier 8,497]

4 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Depends what can you’re talking about. The can that is the current NCAA landscape was blown open long ago so no comment by me or anyone else here opens that further. If we’re talking about our fans opinion of NIL, yes, 100%, crack it open. I doubt you’ll get much disagreement on anything you said, including from me. It’s well said. But the most important thing you said is “we have to play if we want any chance.” If you read your full post, I think you do a pretty good job on the argument of why we have to do it. Basically…it kinda stinks, but it’s also been happening forever and now it’s legal and in the open. So, let’s play the damn game as best we can. I’ll go back to my previous comment…if it only makes us competitive, Woody is still toast. But let’s at least play the game to try to be competitive, or even better than that. Worst case scenario we prove to the next coach that we’re serious about NIL. 

I can't disagree with anything you said.

[DChoosier 9,035]

27 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:

That backcourt limitation was fully and squarely on the architect of that roster - one Michael Dean Woodson. He left an open scholarship and a dearth of serviceable personnel at the guard position. You can't give him credit for the all-star front court and excuse the crappy backcourt. It's his job. He claimed that he did his job, but the proof in in the playing.

???????
I’ll give you an A+ for twisting my post. I’m guessing you didn’t read my second sentence of the post which was……

“Woody didn’t get guards which turned out to be catastrophic”

In no way, shape or form was I excusing the backcourt but rather said Woody did not get guards.

[NashvilleHoosier 3,742]

24 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:

I can't disagree with anything you said.

Thank you for this. There may be no greater victory in 2024 than posting something on the internet and getting a response of “I can’t disagree with anything you said.” ;-)

[Trish 12,186]

It’s night and day basketball watching Alabama basketball vs Indiana basketball. 
 

 

[Bankshot 561]

6 hours ago, Hoosier DaDa said:

I feel like this thread needs a T-Shirt..  My idea is below but if someone out there can create a better one let see them.  Whoever comes up with the best one we can sell them and the profits can go to a slush fund to FIRE MIKE WOODSON! 

 

Was it back in the Crean era maybe that there was a saying or some shirts that said something like: “Welcome to Bloomington, a drinking town with a basketball problem”.

Seems like it may be relevant again, or still.

[iu eyedoc 2,519]

8 hours ago, DChoosier said:

No, it’s not lost on me.
Your post just happened to be one of a thousand referencing us paying guys. Is $$$ the only reason Tucker wants to play at IU? Maybe, but I don’t know that for sure. Many said that about Ware but he turned out seeming pretty dedicated to IU/winning,

Well, IU wasn't in the conversation a few days ago, but soon after the backers of the First Bank of Inside Out ball ponied up more to prop up the failing institution, he suddenly visits and commits in 2 days. It doesn't take a lot of guessing what his motivation is.

And there is nothing wrong with him getting all he can, but overpaying a  coveted recruit, overpaying the 4th to 6th man off the bench and overpaying  a fan favorite shitty 3 point shooting guard should be 6th man is far from a recipe for success.

 

As for Ware, he was a nice one season get and surely kept IU from being stone cold awful, but never did I sense any strong tie IU hoops.

And again that isn't an awful thing, but anyone thinking overpaying mercenary talent is some panacea  just look  a few hundred miles south. What you get is a cheap knockoff version of chronically underperforming UK basketball with a disinterested outdated Dollar Store coach.

[KNOBYDOX 198]

If Woodson gave all the players who stayed big ataboy raises and has to over pay his picks of new players.How far will the reported 6 million go and how many scholarships will he have to leave open when he runs out of money?

Edited March 29, 2024 by KNOBYDOX

[Papacap 691]

3 minutes ago, KNOBYDOX said:

If Woodson gave all the players who stayed big ataboy raises and has to over pay his picks of new players.How far will the reported 6 million go and how many scholarships will he have to leave open when he runs out of money?

This is exactly right. When you are giving more money to a player like Leal, who should be playing when IU is either up or down by 25, then you know every other player on the roster is getting a pay increase. Or they would have tested the portal. 

[Eagle’s Rug 345]

21 minutes ago, iu eyedoc said:

Well, IU wasn't in the conversation a few days ago, but soon after the backers of the First Bank of Inside Out ball ponied up more to prop up the failing institution, he suddenly visits and commits in 2 days. It doesn't take a lot of guessing what his motivation is.

And there is nothing wrong with him getting all he can, but overpaying a  coveted recruit, overpaying the 4th to 6th man off the bench and overpaying  a fan favorite shitty 3 point shooting guard should be 6th man is far from a recipe for success.

 

As for Ware, he was a nice one season get and surely kept IU from being stone cold awful, but never did I sense any strong tie IU hoops.

And again that isn't an awful thing, but anyone thinking overpaying mercenary talent is some panacea  just look  a few hundred miles south. What you get is a cheap knockoff version of chronically underperforming UK basketball with a disinterested outdated Dollar Store coach.

Another possible factor could be that his dad did not have him play AAU ball.  Woody doesn’t seem to care for that and just generally anything recruiting related.  Maybe that philosophy/attitude was common ground that turned into compatibility.

[DChoosier 9,035]

23 minutes ago, iu eyedoc said:

And again that isn't an awful thing, but anyone thinking overpaying mercenary talent is some panacea  just look  a few hundred miles south. What you get is a cheap knockoff version of chronically underperforming UK basketball with a disinterested outdated Dollar Store coach.

Maybe I missed some posts that feel overpaying mercenary talent is a panacea but I think’ you are debating a point no one is making.

I wish we could go back in a time machine and land a few high school players, and Liam would have stayed, but we can’t change what has happened up to now. And yes, that is Woody’s fault.
The facts today, which none of us like, are that the administration has decided to keep Woody and we only have only have a half roster. Unless we can find 6 Jimmy Chitwoods that prove their IU loyalty with huge Hoosier tattoos on their chest, and are willing to play for the love of IU rather than money, we have little choice other than paying (or perhaps overpaying in some cases) for guys.  It’s not a panacea, it’s a necessity  based on where we are today. And again, yes it’s Woody fault, not ideal, but what else can be done at this point (other then fire Woody which isn’t happening)?

[Stuhoo 83,428]

2 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

Maybe I missed some posts that feel overpaying mercenary talent is a panacea but I think’ you are debating a point no one is making.

I wish we could go back in a time machine and land a few high school players, and Liam would have stayed, but we can’t change what has happened up to now. And yes, that is Woody’s fault.
The facts today, which none of us like, are that the administration has decided to keep Woody and we only have only have a half roster. Unless we can find 6 Jimmy Chitwoods that prove their IU loyalty with huge Hoosier tattoos on their chest, and are willing to play for the love of IU rather than money, we have little choice other than paying (or perhaps overpaying in some cases) for guys.  It’s not a panacea, it’s a necessity  based on where we are today. And again, yes it’s Woody fault, not ideal, but what else can be done at this point (other then fire Woody which isn’t happening)?

 

After getting one out-of-state five star, all four of the guards we are prioritizing (Perkins, Walker, Hickman, and Conwell) and one of the bigs (Humrichous) are born and raised in Indiana. And they're all grown-ups, not 18 year olds. 

The game has now been "professionalized." With that fact, rather than scour the country for 100% mercenaries, we apparently are focusing in a real way on players that are more likely to play for IU because of their connection to their home state.

It's the age-old discussion about whether we should give bonus points to in-state kids; in this case we apparently believe we will get a better return on recruiting investment by doing so.

 

[iu eyedoc 2,519]

2 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

Maybe I missed some posts that feel overpaying mercenary talent is a panacea but I think’ you are debating a point no one is making.

I wish we could go back in a time machine and land a few high school players, and Liam would have stayed, but we can’t change what has happened up to now. And yes, that is Woody’s fault.
The facts today, which none of us like, are that the administration has decided to keep Woody and we only have only have a half roster. Unless we can find 6 Jimmy Chitwoods that prove their IU loyalty with huge Hoosier tattoos on their chest, and are willing to play for the love of IU rather than money, we have little choice other than paying (or perhaps overpaying in some cases) for guys.  It’s not a panacea, it’s a necessity  based on where we are today. And again, yes it’s Woody fault, not ideal, but what else can be done at this point (other then fire Woody which isn’t happening)?

I get it, but how does the powers that be not?  I don't expect undying IU loyalty, but sadly bringing in some 5* wing to play in Woodrow's 1986 offense doesn't move the needle for me. That the next season is nothing more than some sacrificial season to stroke Woodson's ego and that he will most assuredly check out ( even more than he is now) by midseason is just aggravating, well at least as much as I can muster anymore with relation to IU hoops.

[Demo 20,932]

55 minutes ago, iu eyedoc said:

Well, IU wasn't in the conversation a few days ago, but soon after the backers of the First Bank of Inside Out ball ponied up more to prop up the failing institution, he suddenly visits and commits in 2 days. It doesn't take a lot of guessing what his motivation is.

And there is nothing wrong with him getting all he can, but overpaying a  coveted recruit, overpaying the 4th to 6th man off the bench and overpaying  a fan favorite shitty 3 point shooting guard should be 6th man is far from a recipe for success.

 

As for Ware, he was a nice one season get and surely kept IU from being stone cold awful, but never did I sense any strong tie IU hoops.

And again that isn't an awful thing, but anyone thinking overpaying mercenary talent is some panacea  just look  a few hundred miles south. What you get is a cheap knockoff version of chronically underperforming UK basketball with a disinterested outdated Dollar Store coach.

Couple of things with this: 1) I assume the bold print is an MSU Insider or some such and their implication is that IU outbid them for Tucker. IU probably outbid someone, but it wasn't MSU, which is currently oversigned by 1, or KU, which if Furphy goes and McNeeley commits is on the number. They didn't have roster room. Funny, I would expect an insider to know that. 2) If you would, either link to the source for the NIL packages that Tucker, Galloway and Leal received or just summarize them because I've never seen those and I'd love to. 3) Ware has been nothing but highly complimentary, probably as gushy as a taciturn kid can get, about his IU experience. He was far less mercenary than I expected.

[OKHOOSIER 3,814]

38 minutes ago, iu eyedoc said:

Well, IU wasn't in the conversation a few days ago, but soon after the backers of the First Bank of Inside Out ball ponied up more to prop up the failing institution, he suddenly visits and commits in 2 days. It doesn't take a lot of guessing what his motivation is.

And there is nothing wrong with him getting all he can, but overpaying a  coveted recruit, overpaying the 4th to 6th man off the bench and overpaying  a fan favorite shitty 3 point shooting guard should be 6th man is far from a recipe for success.

 

As for Ware, he was a nice one season get and surely kept IU from being stone cold awful, but never did I sense any strong tie IU hoops.

And again that isn't an awful thing, but anyone thinking overpaying mercenary talent is some panacea  just look  a few hundred miles south. What you get is a cheap knockoff version of chronically underperforming UK basketball with a disinterested outdated Dollar Store coach.

Well said, and I will add Tucker just simply does not move the needle on the fire Woody train. We trade an objectively MUCH better 5-star who filled a need for one who really doesn’t fill a need other than a body that was obviously holding out for more cash. This is nothing like MR, JHS or MM and those recruiting situation. Were they all “short?” Sure I guess, but MM and MR were late de-commits. People call the JHS one short but he was committed for a full year before he enrolled in the school. 
 

Without Ware this team was sub .500, with some horrific early losses, and Woody would probably be fired. Full stop. Army, FGCU and Morehead are losses without Ware. 
 

What I will be watching for next is the center. I suspect Woody lands another high level starting center (we’ve showed their development and commitment to pounding the ball inside). If (when) that happens the reality of the situation will be clear— MR and MM are entrenched as 4/3 despite being out of position and history repeats itself. Then, to have any chance of sniffing the upper half of the conference we HAVE to land a dynamic PG/CG that can create and score off the bounce and shoot the 3. Woodys offense does not work without it. We’ve seen it. At its best with JHS creating his own shot, or good X slashing. And we know what the ceiling is. Sorry for the long winded regurgitation of your thoughts. 
 

Fire the guy better at recruiting in March than having his team playing basketball games in March. 

[DChoosier 9,035]

4 minutes ago, Demo said:

Couple of things with this: 1) I assume the bold print is an MSU Insider or some such and their implication is that IU outbid them for Tucker. IU probably outbid someone, but it wasn't MSU, which is currently oversigned by 1, or KU, which if Furphy goes and McNeeley commits is on the number. They didn't have roster room. Funny, I would expect an insider to know that. 2) If you would, either link to the source for the NIL packages that Tucker, Galloway and Leal received or just summarize them because I've never seen those and I'd love to. 3) Ware has been nothing but highly complimentary, probably as gushy as a taciturn kid can get, about his IU experience. He was far less mercenary than I expected.

100% about Ware. Many posters (I’m not saying eyedoc) and commentators thought “entitled”5* Ware would shut it down for the NBA draft when he was injured and our season was seemingly over. Instead he came back, initially was clearly in pain and played his butt off while leading us to the best stretch of the season (admittedly too little too late).  I’m not sure what else he could have done to prove his connection to teammates/IU.  

On a side note, amidst a really crappy season it was kind of nice to watch him go from a 6 point a game disappointment to potential first rounder as he seems like a really nice, introverted kid.

[Chris007 48,935]

20 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

After getting one out-of-state five star, all four of the guards we are prioritizing (Perkins, Walker, Hickman, and Conwell) and one of the bigs (Humrichous) are born and raised in Indiana. And they're all grown-ups, not 18 year olds. 

The game has now been "professionalized." With that fact, rather than scour the country for 100% mercenaries, we apparently are focusing in a real way on players that are more likely to play for IU because of their connection to their home state.

It's the age-old discussion about whether we should give bonus points to in-state kids; in this case we apparently believe we will get a better return on recruiting investment by doing so.

 

We're going to need to pull out all the stops to get Hickman. He has 2-3 teams ahead of us because of our offense right now. He is taking our visit this weekend to come home and see family, probably to find out how much we are willing to pay but Nebraska and Cincy are both in front of us along with Kansas. 

That's one of the problems when you have to announce you have a bunch of money to spend to save your coach. Every prospect puts IU on their list to try to get more money. But you have to play the hand you're dealt. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,301]

It is the age old discussion. For me, it’s important to have some Indiana guys, as we’re supposed to be the State school, and Indiana in some years will have great talent. 
But some of my all time favorite IU players are from all over. Vic, maybe my all time favorite, OG, Hell I Thomas, etc.

I want the best players who WANT to play at IU. Ware is a great example, Portal, didn’t grow up a Hoosier wanting to play for IU, but couldn’t have represented us better on the court. Great kid, great player, like many other former IU players from outside IN, and I’m looking forward to seeing how he develops and grows as an NBA player