They “Retired” Coach Woodson Thread

[Unexpectedflash]

20 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Coach Hunter drinks the same Kool-Aid.  From last night as he filled in for Woody on the weekly radio show.

Kenya Hunter: "I just think just with the games we have at home remaining...hopefully that will help get us over the hump."

I’m tired of hearing about this hump

[AKHoosier]

So many things to like in that article about Dusty May.

Wow. Sign me up.

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

13 hours ago, Scotty R said:

Do we know if he could be out recruiting 

Certainly that is a possibility.  However, none of the major players who are pretty clued into our recruiting efforts - Rabjohns, Andershock, Schumann - have even hinted that he was on the road.  

[IUc2016]

12 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

I am pretty sure that Shrews to IU would all but guarantee Sisley and Mullins, and almost as certain that Dusty would do the same.

I think you missed the point where I said I feared what would happen if we didn't make a move this year. Sisley and Mullins are '25 recruits and will be deciding this summer/fall. If things continue and the bottom falls out and Woody continues to half-@$$ recruiting, they very well could commit and sign elsewhere. 

If IU hires either of those guys after next year Sisley and Mullins aren't going to ask out of their LOI two months before they go on campus somewhere else. That's some crimson colored thinking if you believe they would. 

[IUc2016]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

It would take 5 minutes of Dusty May from southern Indiana talking basketball with the Sisley family to get him on board at IU

Not if Trent is signed somewhere else. 

[IUc2016]

9 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

My part on Dusty is as much about saying Goodman is kiss of death as much as anything haha

I can get behind him but I don’t love him. This year hasn’t went well enough for me. Let’s see how he does down the stretch. 

Goodman has been the loudest critic of Woody from the beginning, rightfully so. So it goes both ways 

[Chris007]

3 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Not if Trent is signed somewhere else. 

Well, I'm trying to get some changes happening. No, but I understand what you are saying. I'm guessing if Sisley had to act today I think he would go to Purdue. I think a lot of these 25 Indiana kids don't want to come to play in this style. Also think Woody still thinks IU recruits itself in this state which it doesn't anymore. 

[IUc2016]

4 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Well, I'm trying to get some changes happening. No, but I understand what you are saying. I'm guessing if Sisley had to act today I think he would go to Purdue. I think a lot of these 25 Indiana kids don't want to come to play in this style. Also think Woody still thinks IU recruits itself in this state which it doesn't anymore. 

I think you are right. But who could blame him

[Trish]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

I was already on the May train but this just solidifies it. Maybe instead of getting Brad Stevens, we get the next Brad Stevens

I agree Chris. Woodson was never the Indiana guy, nor was Steve. But Dusty May just may be the Indiana guy to lead the program back. 
 

Get it done Dolson, ASAP!

[HoosierMatty]

If Dusty is the guy I don't want to wait. I worried about missing our window of opportunity. Not to mention we could lose out on some top in state recruits.

I know Dolson won't fire Woody this year but I hope he works overtime to convince him to walk away and retire. That's the only way this happens this year. 

[IUrocker]

I really do hope Dolson feels like he needs to make a move sooner than later to be able to get May if he thinks he needs to be the guy. I realize it’d be a dream destination and he’d come regardless, but let’s say Ohio State or Louisville or something opens up after this season and he gets offered the job. He wouldn’t want to turn that down would he? Then he could be fine with being at those schools for a little while with success while we sit and risk going through mediocre seasons with Woodson some more. 
 

Also, I saw someone mention it being a pretty bad look that Woodson wasn’t on the coaches show and had Hunter do it instead. I wonder if there really is something to that or just isn’t that big of a deal. I know Woodson had that comment a while back saying something like he doesn’t need to answer to the fans….so just could seem like an odd time to miss the show after losing by 20 to Purdue again. Like I said, I’m not saying that’s the reason he missed, but I understand the optics that could have to some people.

[GnarlyNormEllenberger]

12 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

This is why I believe -

Woody can and will turn it around. He made some mistakes and contrary to popular belief, he will make some changes to ensure a better result.

it is much easier for this program to allow Woody another year to get it right, have some recruiting continuity, better chance to retain some key pieces, win some games and go back to tourney. Then while this is happening, you work hard at locking in the right guy. Much healthier.

I do not believe the common troupe of “portal makes it easy to rebuild” - plenty of early examples showing that to not be true. Even the early return for few examples are starting to fall quick and won’t make tourney (St John, Ole Miss etc) 

For those saying we have to anyway, you don’t know that and is also easier to get some pieces when you have Malik, McNeely, most likely Queen etc to show guards. All those guys are gone if you move on and you don’t build better or faster than giving him a year to finish what he started.

Lastly, all those Dusty fans should officially be scared as hell that Goodman loves him so much and was selling him that hard. He loved Archie, loved Holtman, etc. just saying. Kiss of death.

The other guys know this could fail and it is bad move.

This is a fair viewpoint and it is entirely possible that you are spot-on. But I also think that some of your assertions don't have any more certainty than the ones it would appear you are debating against.

Your first couple of paragraphs assert with some confidence that Woody will definitely make some noticeable changes next year that will definitely get us back to the tournament. I mean... maybe? But I don't think one can blame another fan for being hesitant with this prediction. What would make the average fan believe that legitimate changes are coming? In his press conferences he has consistently pushed back against the notion of modern basketball tendencies such as increased 3FG proficiency, running a single post, spreading out the offense, etc. He has shown his strong desire to adhere to his nail-slot-rim defensive philosophies despite not appearing to have the personnel to run it effectively. Basically, he just says they need to keep working on the things they are doing. There are certainly some positive qualities I could use to describe Mike Woodson but innovative, adaptable and versatile do not come to mind.

RE: Recruiting. He's been able to get some talented players... there's no doubt. But his roster construction is probably the #1 reason why this year's team has struggled so much. He banked heavily on the health of Johnson and Newton, the continued emergence of Galloway and the readiness of Cupps... none of which have had anywhere near the level of success required for a team to win championships (which he repeatedly mentioned was why he came here to coach.) Instead, he continued to recruit both Walker and Sparks to buff a frontcourt that didn't really need buffing with Ware and Reneau in the fold. Did he feel like the frontcourt really needed depth but the backcourt did not? Mind you... we still have an open scholarship. That question leads me to mention how I struggle to believe Woodson is only playing a post-centric style because "he has to." I'd make the argument that he has most certainly prioritized the post during his tenure here and we're seeing the returns on that this season.

So if there are clear roster construction concerns (especially in the free agency period of college basketball) do we really have the confidence of him being able to retain/assemble a more complete roster next year (and the years to come?) Like you said (and I believe you are 100% accurate) the portal does not make it easy to rebuild. You can't just add the most talented pieces and make it work. We tried this year. Ware and Mgbako are wonderful talents. But the pieces don't fit. The chemistry isn't there. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to have legitimate concerns that even if we add Queen and a top-tier portal guard next year while retaining a fair amount of the roster (which is far from a guarantee... and is that even in the best interest of the program?) that we're going to be clearly better. A transfer PG-Galloway-McNeeley-Reneau-Queen lineup will still be very post-centric. If Mgbako returns even moreso. It's setting up to be the same style Woody has run since he has been here. Talented? Yes. Does it work? Far from a guarantee. Especially without an All-American TJD.

As far as the health of the program goes... a legitimate portion of the fanbase has already began to question Woodson. We have already heard boos rain down from Assembly Hall. I'm curious to see the temperature of the program this time next month. If we don't show some competitive fire (i.e win more than a game or two) here down the stretch then we're going to have a very toxic situation on our hands. Is it healthy for the program to carry that level of toxicity through the offseason? Can Woodson successfully recruit within that environment? Is it good for the program if Woodson enters next year on all of the "Hot Seat" lists next year? I'm afraid that any sort of success they would have next year would be torn down the first time they lose a game they should have won or play poorly.

The next three weeks or so is very important for this program. There's no reason why we can't win five or six of the last conference games , salvage an NIT bid and build some momentum into next year. I really hope that happens! Our schedule is more than manageable. But if we continue our current trajectory and only win another game or two... you're going to see a really toxic situation. It'll make the current "unrest" of the fanbase seem mild. We've seen this movie before.

[JimmerNoe]

I was already on the May train but this just solidifies it. Maybe instead of getting Brad Stevens, we get the next Brad Stevens

If you read this article and don’t think May would be a good fit you’re just being contrarian. I think the people who are trying to compare it to Archie are getting stuck on “work ethic” because everyone talked about how hard Archie worked.

May is a savant who is watching Euro League games at 4 in the morning on the recruiting trail to find a better way to use his bigs. How often do we b*tch and moan that our coaches aren’t adaptable to the modern game and don’t make adjustments?

Sign me up. This will be our second Brad Stevens miss if we don’t make it happen.


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[AZ Hoosier]

33 minutes ago, IUrocker said:

I really do hope Dolson feels like he needs to make a move sooner than later to be able to get May if he thinks he needs to be the guy. I realize it’d be a dream destination and he’d come regardless, but let’s say Ohio State or Louisville or something opens up after this season and he gets offered the job. He wouldn’t want to turn that down would he? Then he could be fine with being at those schools for a little while with success while we sit and risk going through mediocre seasons with Woodson some more. 
 

Also, I saw someone mention it being a pretty bad look that Woodson wasn’t on the coaches show and had Hunter do it instead. I wonder if there really is something to that or just isn’t that big of a deal. I know Woodson had that comment a while back saying something like he doesn’t need to answer to the fans….so just could seem like an odd time to miss the show after losing by 20 to Purdue again. Like I said, I’m not saying that’s the reason he missed, but I understand the optics that could have to some people.

Maybe something to it, maybe not... but at this point, it give the appearance of Woodson having checked out...

[realTomCrean]

4 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

May can be the biggest basketball savant to ever live and still not succeed. The IU job is way more and way harder than just coaching X and Os. If it takes him 4 years to really get going which is very possible, he will have had the pressure turned up to 11 by then and could crack.

In a lot of areas in life, the smartest guy doesn’t succeed. 

If it takes him 4 years, yes, he'd be chastised. Teams can literally bring in 8-10 news guys a year now and if that doesn't work year 1, teams can do it all again year 3. I believe if May, who I sincerely hope is hired in the next 60 days, had a lackluster first year the minimum expectation for year 2 is the tournament and every year beyond that is competing nationally. It just comes with the job, if coaches don't want expectations and fan pressure, they should go to a place that doesn't value and have history of being successful - it's a part of the IU job just as it is w/ UK, Louisville, Duke, UNC, Kansas. IU will provide a coach w/ top notch facilities, astronomical pay, NIL funds that are hard to match, and brand recognition. IU and fans make a coaches life easy to recruit and vehemently support a winner. Win or be replaced. 

"It's Indiana, It's Indiana"

[JimmerNoe]

May can be the biggest basketball savant to ever live and still not succeed. The IU job is way more and way harder than just coaching X and Os. If it takes him 4 years to really get going which is very possible, he will have had the pressure turned up to 11 by then and could crack.
In a lot of areas in life, the smartest guy doesn’t succeed. 

The smartest guy usually makes sure he has everything in place to give him the best chance to succeed. Nothing is guaranteed.

Also I know the pressure you’re talking about is different, but after last years run FAU has been under the national spotlight with everyone in the country watching to see if they were a fluke. Quite a bit of pressure and more attention than IU has had on them from a national perspective in a while. Dealt with some injuries and some hiccups with bigger competition but overall looks to be sustaining. More pressure-proven than most if you ask me, despite the lower stakes at a school like FAU.


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[realTomCrean]

I want Woodson to have success and even I have made the argument that he's made the tourney 2x after a half-decade dry spell, but when you see it faltering it's time to pull the plug. It's not getting to the tourney, though that is important, it's the play style, the character of the players, the recruiting, and possibility of coaching style leading admin/fans to be hopeful they can win a "B1G championship or National Championship" as Woodson says. It's clear as day that this style of ball isn't going to bring in top end talent and will not produce results that end up in championships. All future indicators point to this being a crash and burn ending for Woody and IU, save some face while there is still a possibility to do so. That's why I want IU to move on before Woodson's entire IU image is tainted. Don't let the dog slowly bleed, put it out of his misery quickly. 

And if they do separate after this year, T's & P's to Coach Woodson for a great "bridge" contract to return IU from the dumpster fire it has been since 2016. We would look back fondly on Woodson and his contribution if it ends this year, next year the image will be different. 

[JimmerNoe]

I would argue he is barely hanging on this year. If he went to a final four at IU and then returned that roster, only to turn around and lose to all the teams he has this year, yeah, he would be in hot water. I also fully expect them to flame out early in the tourney this year. Then what will guys say? Give him a pass? 

I disagree, if he took IU to a final four and then lost a handful of rough games en route to the tourney we would all still be giddy that we went to a final four and didn’t fall off a cliff back to oblivion. I think most would agree but I’m sure you won’t.


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[Trish]

I can only imagine Indiana being in the Final Four. Dusty has been there, Woodson has gotten blown out by 30 to St.Mary's. I can't imagine Woodson getting to the Elite Eight as a 9 seed. Dusty May has done that. 

 

 

[IUc2016]

7 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

I would argue he is barely hanging on this year. If he went to a final four at IU and then returned that roster, only to turn around and lose to all the teams he has this year, yeah, he would be in hot water. I also fully expect them to flame out early in the tourney this year. Then what will guys say? Give him a pass? 

You can argue that, but nobody would take you serious. 

Wins against Arizona, Butler,  VaTech (BY 34), Texas A&M. Won their early season MTE. Currently 19-5 and 9-2 in conference with a much stronger schedule than last year. 

But go ahead, argue away.