Maryland vs Indiana - Game Thread, Fri., 12/1 @ 7 BTN

[IU - Kaulie]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Here's my thing on the Cupps, Gunn, Leal stuff. 

Yes, Cupps and Leal are going to give up some points due to lack of size and/or athleticism. They just are. Cupps will add size/bulk as he develops and will be fine, but yes right now his strength is an issue. 

Neither really contribute much offensively, though Cupps does provide a reliable ballhandler that can give Galloway/XJ a break. But, they also don't really take anything off the table offensively. 

With all of that said, I'll take the above and I think most coaches would too, over Gunn right now. Gunn has the length and athleticism, yet constantly gets out of position and beat defensively. 

I'll take the guys that are mostly in good position but get beat because of athleticism over the the guy that has the tools but is causing our defense stress because he's out of position and flying by shooters, going for pump fakes that allow penetration, etc. 

I'll take the guys that might not be adding much offensively vs the guy taking things away offensively. I'll take Cupps 0-for-1 in 20 minutes while providing extra ball handling over Gunn going 1-for-4 in 12 minutes with three bad shots. 

Gunn and Cupps both have upside, but a coach is always going to pick the guy he can trust more. 

This is so spot on.

I will take it one step further that Leal looked good on offense.  When he was bringing up the ball he was really pushing it.  He also had a couple nifty passes. The 3 he took didn’t go down but it looked really good with him putting it up.  A lot better than anything Gunn is hoisting up.

All of your takes on Gunn are 100% correct right now.  I like him but this is just where we are right now.

On an unrelated note, I wish (beg) CMW would find some more minutes for Kaleb Banks somewhere.

I think he can play a couple different spots.  He looked comfortable even bringing the ball up the court but I wouldn’t want him to do that against pressure but this is a kid that needs to play and I think he really helps us with just his movement and activity level.  There is a reason he is always around the ball making plays.  I see him being able to do a little bit of everything including the ability to hit the 3 and score ‘junk’ points.  He should still be getting more minutes.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, Ngw7183 said:

As a coach, I am still surprised you can’t see how limited he is athletically as well. Yes, strength is an issue but he is not quick at all. You can train some speed but quickness is kind of what it is. 

also, look at his assist and turnover rate, he may be another ball handler but he is a poor one at the moment. So he doesn’t score, doesn’t assist and turns it over. This is why Woody is pulling him more and more. He will for sure improve but it is really bad right now. Seems as though half the fans see that and half don’t. 

This isn’t to say CJ over him but CJ sure has way more upside and he is no Jordan Geronimo since we are throwing that comparison at him. CJ can catch a ball and not trip walking. He also had a solid HS career. He will get it.

Real issue is we need X back really bad. Him not being in that 2nd half was reason for all the turnovers. We need someone to just handle the pressure and calm things. That pressure will be higher going forward. Really hope we can squeak through the next 2 games without him but will be really tough to do. 

There are reasons Cupps is getting more time than Gunn consistently.

It's not necessarily because of what Cupps is doing, I'll grant you that, but right now Gunn is a hot mess on both ends. 

Any coach would take the guy he can trust over the guy he can't. Right now, Gunn can't be trusted consistently out there on either end. 

Honestly, it's a bigger indictment against Gunn that he can't overtake Cupps right now, because its not like Cupps is doing that much out there. 

[BGleas]

There have also been players much less athletic than Cupps that have been really good high major players. 

His issue right now is strength. He needs to continue to develop in terms of body maturity and add strength and he'll be fine. 

But, we do need to see Cupps add something offensively. We need to see him bring something to the table. Create, hit some shots, etc.  It's not enough to just get the ball up the court and add nothing else. 

[Golfman25]

6 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

Not that anything we say here matters or what fans think matters but….

for those saying CJ shouldn’t see the floor and Leal/Cupps need his minutes, CJ (based on stats that I know some don’t like) actually had a better game than both. The more Leal and Cupps play, the worse their efficiency stats get. 

CJ can also defend  (3 steals even with a couple missed switches) when Cupps and Leal can’t stay in front of guys. With X out, I would probably take more Leal with Trey running offense rather than more Cupps.  Once again shows how important X is and how we have zero guard depth.

I get CJ is frustrating but the ability is there. Other guys don’t have the ability he does. Not saying shooter either but ability to be a great defender and efficient scorer by driving. Very similar to Trey honestly. He needs to make it easier on himself as someone else said. He makes the easy play, hard. Liked trying to tomahawk a dunk rather than just lay it up or dunk it with 2 hands. But the other 2 can’t score at all. I think Woodson sees it too and why they are so hard on him. They know he could be so much more. The others give what they have but they can only do so much. 

How do CJ’s stats change if you count his crappy shots as turnovers?

[Golfman25]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I’ll be in the other room sobbing. 

No that’s Jared Hulls from Kokomo.  Give him that last scholarship.  

[IU - Kaulie]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

There have also been players much less athletic than Cupps that have been really good high major players. 

His issue right now is strength. He needs to continue to develop in terms of body maturity and add strength and he'll be fine. 

But, we do need to see Cupps add something offensively. We need to see him bring something to the table. Create, hit some shots, etc.  It's not enough to just get the ball up the court and add nothing else. 

I think Cupps will get there.  I think next year he will be a different player.  He just has to play right now because we have such limited options.

Gunn could still get there too and reach his potential but it’s a big question right now if he realizes that potential.  I hope he figures it out.

[JSHoosier]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I’ll be in the other room sobbing. 

I remember him hitting a left handed 3 against, I think, MSU. He shot better with his off hand than some of our players do with their dominant hand.

[BGleas]

Just now, IU - Kaulie said:

I think Cupps will get there.  I think next year he will be a different player.  He just has to play right now because we have such limited options.

Gunn could still get there too and reach his potential but it’s a big question right now if he realizes that potential.  I hope he figures it out.

Yeah, Cupps work to hard and is too smart to not figure it out, the question is just to what level. 

I've just never seen the Gunn thing. He has some tools. Really good length and athleticism for his position, etc., but he's not a particularly smart player and is a really bad shooter who shoots alot. 

Maybe his shot develops, but for a shooter he has an incredible amount of improving to do. 

[Hornsby]

Yeah, Cupps work to hard and is too smart to not figure it out, the question is just to what level. 
I've just never seen the Gunn thing. He has some tools. Really good length and athleticism for his position, etc., but he's not a particularly smart player and is a really bad shooter who shoots alot. 
Maybe his shot develops, but for a shooter he has an incredible amount of improving to do. 

Gunn was supposed to have improved alot this summer was the rumor. That did not happen. I don't see him ever being a rotation player at this level his shooting is awful.

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

They don’t play close to the same role. Come on. CJ is a 2 who is really a wing. Cupps is a PG.  if CJ could play that role at all, he would play more than Cupps even with his issues. We have way more of the 2/3 guys than we do PG.  I bet if X was playing, Cupps min would be way down and CJ the same fwiw. 

you keep saying “trust” but he has a lower turnover rate and higher defensive rating than Cupps. Trust him for what? To not score and turn it over? Get blown by on D? if you say defensive positioning, Cupps was caught out of position lots last night. 

It isn’t trust, he doesn’t have any options. Cupps is more of a ball handler so by default it’s him but each game his play gets worse. Woody is searching. 

Leal has same issues as Cupps but at least some experience. Leal hasn’t played for a reason. Woody 100% doesn’t want to play him but has pulled Cupps a few times now for him and vice versa. 

I will say something I thought I never would, I would take Braden Smith (yes, freshman version) over Cupps. Cupps is Rob Phinisee.  Limited but a guy easy to route for. 

CJ needs work, yes. More upside, yes. Better chance he contributes way more than Cupps or Leal but mid season, yes. Can he be a ball handler with X down, nope. Not his strength. His strength is defending, rebounding and scoring (not shooting) but slashing. He is showing some real explosiveness. 

hopefully survive the next 2 games and X can stay healthy rest of the year. 

We have a total of 4 healthy backcourt guys (Galloway, Cupps, Gunn and Leal) and one of those guys barely has played in his career. Yet, Gunn is still struggling to get playing time. 

I completely understand stats and analytics, but once again they are not the end all be all. They are a part of a larger story. 

It is crystal clear that Mike Woodon trusts Gabe Cupps incredibly more than he does CJ Gunn, at least right now. It's obvious. 

Cupps isn't even doing anything out there and Gunn still can't get more minutes. That says a whole lot about how Gunn is playing. 

Cupps is a much smarter player. Is rarely out of position, etc. Gunn is out of position all of the time, goes for unnecessary shot fakes around the perimeter causing the entire defense to scramble, and takes terrible shots. 

Mike Woodson has shown us with his playing time who he trusts more right now.

There is way more to evaluating these things than stats. Being in the right place at the time, understanding the schemes, understanding what's a good shot and what isn't, etc

 

[go iu bb]

2 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

You are right, we should probably bench him like so many wanted MM and Walker to be benched.

Right, because the situation with Gunn is totally the same as those two. Calling to for a sophomore who hasn't played well his whole career is totally the same as calling for a 5* freshman in his first few games or a 5th year player who has been dependable in the past to sit.

[Uspshoosier]

21 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Really good high major careers as a PG in the last 10/15 years? Trying to think of a PG who I would say was not athletic and had really good high major career

Luckily for college kids they don’t need the nba athleticism and measurables  to be a very good college basketball player.   Also lucky for them that they get 4 years to grow into being impactful players     Tyler Kolek was an unranked kid from Rhode Island that went to George Mason.  No high major wanted him because of his lack of athleticism and measureables.    Transfers to Marquette and with hard work and coaching turned into the Big East player of the year as a junior and now as a senior is viewed as  one the best point guards today.   Ryan A not going to try and spell for Nova became one heck of a college point guard.   Kihei Clark was a 3 star kid committed to UC Davis his senior year because no high major wanted him because he was too small to play high major ball.   Everyone wanted his teammate Akinjo.   He outshined his teammate at peach jam and decomits after Virginia offers him.    Kid saved Virginia as a freshman and turned out to have a very successful career.   There are honesty too many stories like these to count for college basketball.    This isn’t the NBA and for that I’m thankful because none of those kids had a chance to play at the level but none of that matters because they were studs in college when “experts” projected they wouldn’t be high major 

[Golfman25]

29 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

I don’t know, how do Cupps and Leals change since they can’t hit a shot to save their life either. It is also a liability when the other team knows you won’t shoot, you won’t drive and are just an extra body on offense. Even a missed shot and threat of a strong drive keeps D honest with CJ. Not so much with Cupps. 

Turnover rate however is turnover rate. 

You are right, we should probably bench him like so many wanted MM and Walker to be benched.

Look, you can either use critical thinking to truly evaluate stats, or you can just blah, blah, blah on.  Going down the court, putting up a quick off balance shot, that has zero chance of going in and is rebounded by the opponent is the equivalent of a turnover.  That is something CJ is guilty of and needs to be considered if you’re going to make an objective evaluation.  Stats aren’t perfect.  

[Uspshoosier]

2 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

But neither is playing well. It really is that simple.

For some reasons, about half the fans don’t want to believe the stats screaming at them and their trend.

Because they can it’s really that simple 

[HoosierHoopster]

Cupps is a thin Frosh who is learning to run (as pg) a high major college team, with an offense that is clearly still developing, and with a body that doesn’t yet have a year of college weight training and nutrition. What he brings to the table right now is floor vision and generally pretty solid decision making. He doesn’t make many mistakes. 

He’s not an immediate impact player like a Yogi, but he is looking like a guy who will grow into a strong college point. 

Hulls was really a 2 but I continue to see fair comparisons (no, not that they’re both white lol). Neither came in strong, particularly athletic, very fast, or big. Both came in looking like savvy on ball players, both good shooters, both made few mistakes early, both played immediately within the offensive flow — their early grasp of the speed of the college game ((so much faster than HS) was pretty apparent early on. 

Cupps absolutely should be getting decent minutes, as he is, he is growing into the college point role, you can see the promise in his game - my only complaint is why isn’t he shooting? The kid can shoot, get him looks and/or let him create some shots for himself along with Bako. He needs to contribute more to the offense and that includes assisting better, but I think that’s going to come.

edit- some discussion above of guys who developed well over time. How about Collin Hartman? Scrawny frosh, fans on HSN posting he should transfer (I never like that talk, some people actually wanted Wat to transfer), had offseason knee surgery, by his junior season he was a strong contributor. 
For that matter Yogi had this ridiculous tendency as a frosh to run straight into traffic leave his feet and only then realize he wasn’t sure who he was going to pass to - point guards in particular need time to develop 

[Hovadipo]

[J34]

With the Cupps and CJ(and backcourt in general)debate, I believe Woody is just wanting someone to not give away possessions on offense,  and play hard nosed smart defense.  With our ability to provide 50-60ppg from our frontcourt, we just need our backcourt to keep defenses honest. If we can get a statline like Trey had last night, consistently from any of our guards, this team could be dangerous. 

PS- Kaleb Banks needs to play somewhere, he's this close to putting it together! 

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Ngw7183 said:

I have zero issues admitting that. In fact, pretty sure I have acknowledged this in every post about him. My only argument is he and Cupps are about equal and one has more upside. But neither is playing well. It really is that simple.

For some reasons, about half the fans don’t want to believe the stats screaming at them and their trend.

At end of the day, we don’t have X for a couple more so they both need to contribute way more than they have or this will be a couple of loses. 

I don’t see anybody not believing the stats. What I see are people, like myself, putting stats in proper context.  

[BGleas]

14 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

I am well aware there is more than stats. I bring up stats as something factual rather than just “my opinion” or “to my eyes.”  This is similar to my argument when I said MM was on JHS timeline to my eyes and the stats. You didn’t agree as your eyes said the stats were wrong. 

We see how that has been going since and in fact, he is more contributory to the team at this point than JHS was. I fully expect that to continue to my eyes and the stats. 

The stats back up what I see with Cupps who is out of position a lot too, he can’t guard quick big ten guards and does zero on offense. No assist, not points, nothing. He doesn’t really direct offense either. 

You have your opinion on what Woody sees and I have mine. Woody is losing trust and you could see it. Cupps was a quick yank, in Harvard for Leal’s first minutes and twice yesterday after poor play. Woody doesn’t see them as equal roles. He sees Leal, Trey and Cupps as the only ball handler/pg type guys we have. When X is back and going, I expect to see Cupps minutes drop a lot and CJ to stay around 15. Again, Woody sees them as different roles. 

I could happily debate this all day but know some get tired of the back and forth. I hope Cupps can prove me way wrong next 2 games because we need way more from him to get to road wins. 

We're just never going to agree in these topics and that's ok. Leal is not taking Cupps minutes, he's taking Gunn's. I don't even see how that is a debatable point? 

Harvard was the first game Leal played in and Gunn had his minutes drop to only 3 and didn't play at all in the 2nd half. On this team Gunn is in the guard rotation and can't get minutes ahead of Cupps and has been losing some minutes to Leal. 

It's just factual. 

On the JHS/MM thing. MM playing better is just that, he's playing better. Most of us expected him to begin to play better. His defense has improved to a somewhat serviceable point, he's getting himself more involved by rebounding, especially on the offensive side, and Woodson is finally running more sets for him. 

That's all true, but it doesn't make some early season comparison to JHS last year accurate or true. We both agree their games are completely different, but their early season contributions were also vastly different. 

[BGleas]

14 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

It doesn’t matter what class they are. That isn’t the point. My point was to @BGleasand him saying the data is wrong. He said same thing on MM. 

We have a lot of strong opinions on here. Mine included. Those strong opinions lead for many to say Walker (senior) shouldn’t see a minute the rest of year and MM needed benched and they couldn’t see the talent at all. Those opinions were quickly extinguished in a few games. My point there is the stats and my eye test for what good it is, showed people were over reacting and they were fine, turns out they were. Data does matter but seems most here don’t like it. It does help remove bias. 

CJ may be a soph but he has very little game minutes. We have people ready to give up on him completely because of how he is playing but Cupps they think is playing well. Even Leal. We even have those who thought Leal and Cupps “played good but MM was just ok” - All the data and my eye test says Cupps was least productive player we had last night. 

People can say it is more than stats and data which there is some truth to. But at some point when the data it screaming at you, you have to listen.  You combine that with player attributes and our best option to get another productive guard this year is CJ. 

Ultimately this falls on the staff and I have been a huge supporter of them. I know they tried in the portal but they had to find another effective guard. We really have 2. One is injured and the other finally started playing better. That is rough. 

Woah, slow down there. I never said the data was wrong. 

I understand the data and analytics. But the data and analytics are not the end all be all. For the hundredth time, they are only one part of a larger story. 

You have to be able to critically think the game beyond the data. Why is the data showing me what it's showing me?

Why are guys inefficient? What's making them inefficient? 

With two inefficient guys, is one high usage and inefficient vs another that is low usage?

Are one guys bad defensive stats because he's largely gambling and out of position which causes everyone else to have to scramble and stresses our defense unnecessarily at times and is the other largely because of size? I can deal with the latter but not the former. 

The why is just as important as the numbers, and Woodson most likely using the data and what he sees and know, which is how it should be.