BGleas

Yeah, Madar was a 2020 Celtics draft pick. Dude was drafted 6 years ago and played in the 2021 Vegas Summer League!?!? Bilas is the worst. He's literally trying to destroy the same system that made his adult life what it is.

Dude was a Celtics draft pick and Vegas Summer League darling for two years like 3-4 years ago.

Complete apples to oranges comparison here, so almost even irrelevant numbers, but Harris' numbers last year at Duke would have ranked him on IU: 1st in DRtg 3rd in ORtg

With you on what could have been done with Harris' money if you're saying Dorn is kept as our 9th-10th guy (which would be 4th or 5th guard). Just not as a starter or 6th man playing 20+ mpg.

Again, I agree with you on the vast majority of this conversation, just not Dorn. He was bad at basically everything except spot-up shooting (which he was really only average at). Can't imagine Dorn starting and/or playing 20+ mpg on a good or even upper-middle of the pack Big Ten Team. Maybe he proves me wrong at Miami, but the ACC isn't the Big Ten.

Sorry for pushing this, more just having a slow, relaxing weekend so figured it would be fun to chat on this. With that said, I'd argue that Dorn is so bad that having him playing 20+ minutes per game would significantly lower our ceiling next season. We had 9 rotation guys last season and he ranked 6th or worse per 100 possessions in nearly every category except for 3pt shooting and turnovers (mainly because he doesn't handle at all). He was our worst defender and second worst rebounder (slightly better than Enright). I don't see how one of our worst players last season would help next year's team as a starter (or 6th man) playing 20+ minutes. Like I said, fully agree with being skeptical of Harris and wondering what else we could have done with that money. I'm with you there. Just can't understand advocating for Dorn as part of that.

What other things does he provide? He was 6th out of 9 rotation players in offensive rating, 8 out of 9 in rebounding per 100 possessions and 9th in defensive rating. He does almost nothing beyond streaky spot-up shooting (34% outside of that 3 game stretch). He's an awful defender.

Again, I'm with you on your Harris stance, but we're never going to agree on Dorn. He was bad last season. Honestly, I would have taken Jasai Miles back in that spot before Dorn. At least Miles can defend and rebound his position, and then the staff could have had him making 300-500 spot-up 3s a day in the off-season to try and get him serviceable as a shooter. Much easier to improve a players shooting.

No, he's an awful defender. Like, really bad. He provides one thing and one thing only, streaky spot-up shooting. You're only focusing on points and 3pt shooting percentage. Dorn killed us defensively. Not saying he's the only reason, but it's not a coincidence that our defense went down the drain the back half of the season when our worst defender started getting more minutes. There's more to the game than just spot-up shooting. I get it's not fair to remove his 3-4 game heater, but outside of that he was very average at the one thing he's supposed to provide.

I'm not really backing Harris in some big way here, I have no idea if he'll make a leap with more playing time at IU. He could be really good, he could be really bad. It's a risk the staff is taking. My thing in this discussion is that we know Dorn is bad. Yeah, he had a few games where he got hot from 3 and no disputing his shooting was key to those big wins. But, he was basically terrible at everything else, and outside that hot shooting streak he was basically average at best at his one skill. He's a terrible defender (9th in defensive rating out of our 9 rotation guys) and a very limited offensive player. I have no issue with questioning whether we should have tried to spend Harris' NIL money elsewhere. Can completely buy that line of thinking. But the idea we should have kept Dorn instead, and especially as a starter. I can't get onboard with that. Dorn was bad last season.

Out of the 9 rotation guys (it was really 8 but let's count both Sisley and Miles) Dorn was 6th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating. He was bad last season and is not a Big Ten level starter on a good team, let alone a bad one. I'm not saying I know what Harris will be, but Dorn was the last returner I wanted us to bring back.

Yeah, I'm with you on what maybe else could have been done with that money. Split between two other guys, etc.? Just not with you on Dorn. Dorn was pretty bad last year. We don't know what Harris will be, completely agree there, but I can't imagine him being worse than Dorn outside of that 3-4 game heater.

It's my bad. I started the convo on asking what Dorn's numbers were if you take out that 3-4 game heater he had. Completely agree that its totally unfair to Dorn to do that. But yeah, I just think he's so limited. Would have been fine keeping as a 8th-10th guy in the rotation for experience and culture and some situational stuff, but my opinion is that he is not a starter on a good Big Ten team. I don't know that Harris is either, but I'd take my chances with his upside given how well thought of he was.

I know this isn't necessarily fair to Dorn, but I wonder what those shooting numbers are if you take out his 3-game heater? I also wonder what Harris can bring beyond. I'm not trying to hate on Dorn, but he did very little beyond streaky shooting. If Harris can defend better, has some handling or creating he can provide, etc., he could upgrade in other areas. I don't know if he can do those things, but from what I saw from Dorn he can't.

It's interesting how we all see things differently. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and HH or I am right. Who knows until it plays out. I agree with you that I was hoping we'd be able to add more proven pieces to the bench. I'm nervous we're going to have to rely on so many unproven pieces and and to varying degrees rely on 3 freshmen off the bench. We need another big and I also think another ball handler. I was hoping we'd be able to push Karvala and Manhertz down the depth chart with the last 2 additions. With all of that said, Nick Dorn is where we disagree. He was the returning player I wanted back least (outside of the two international guys from last year). I don't know what Harris will be, but I don't see how it can be worse than Dorn. Outside of his 3-game hot shooting streak, he was pretty awful. He's a terrible defender, doesn't handle or create offensively, really does very little outside very streaky spot-up shooting. Again, I have no idea what Harris will be, and can agree that I wonder what else we could have done with that NIL investment, but I don't see how Harris can be much worse than Dorn. Harris' ceiling is much higher IMO. Maybe Dorn will prove me wrong at Miami, but I wasn't too high on him last season.

You could also make an argument that the real success will be in the middle 3-4 or so guys. We probably know roughly what we're getting out of Burton, Sherrill and Yugi, but the difference between 5-8 in conference vs top 3-4 in conference is probably how well Mustaf, Harris and Lindsay or maybe Sisley perform.

Yeah, I think we're largely saying the same thing. That's also why Zeisloft was my comparison. A guy averaging 6ppg at the mid to low-major level isn't going to cost a lot, but has a specific skill (shooting in this case) that you can utilize in spots. That way it's not a waste of a spot even if the guy isn't getting a ton of time. Anyways outside of a backup big, anyone we add at this point is going to most likely not get a ton of time. So, I think you look for specific skills you can utilize situationally in those players.

Thank you! Can't believe I couldn't remember his name. He was so important that season.

That's kind of why I specifically picked Zeisloft as the example. Remember, Crean took a lot of heat for that pickup. Zeisloft averaged like 6ppg at the mid-major level. He wasn't a guy you had to promise a ton of minutes too, but then he ended up earning them. With that said, I agree. One more serviceable big, and then you're looking to supplement any other additions IMO with a specific specialist (ie. Zeisloft type). Going back to that same year (2016). The Michigan big that transfered in and was huge in the Big Ten title run. Again, if I remember correctly, he had pretty much fallen out of the rotation for Beilein the year before, and was not a really sought after transfer, but then played a big role for IU.

Would love to see a Nick Zeisloft type added with one of those spots.

Probably couldn't get him specifically, but a guy like Terrence Hill from VCU. Just a bucket-getting guard off the bench that can also take some ball handling duties in spurts.

Also think we need a combo guard off the bench that can score alongside Burton, but also handle the ball when Burton is out.

Obviously Michigan was led by their "Big 4" of Yaxel, Johnson, Mara and Cadeau. But what I felt took them from good to great was the other 4 main guys around them. McKinney, Cason, Burnett and Gayle, Jr. Those were legit power conference role players. Replace those guys with Enright, Dorn, Miles and Bailey and Michigan isn't winning a title. All that to say, of Sherrill commits we have at least 3 (Burton, Sherrill and the Turkish big) of our lead guys. Question on how good we'll be is whether we can add another "lead" guy and then our role players are Mustafa, Harris and fill in a couple more (maybe Moody)? Can we get one more "guy", or are we starting both Mustafa and Harris. Can we push Harris to a shooter off the bench role? Great start, lots to still figure out.

Sounds like they may have some more in the bank to burn...

But the donor has no ROI. I guess there's a lot of rich people out there, but it can't go on forever when there is no chance of a monetary return on the investment.