BGleas

Yeah, it's weird to have PG on my team after all these years. He did surprise me in the playoffs last season vs Boston as he really accepted his role and excelled in it during that series. Optimistic about that. Interesting, soft isn't a word I would use with Tatum. It will probably change post-Achilles, but he's always been an anti-load management guy. He's a team-first super-star. Scored 46 on the road in Game 6 in 2022 down 3-2 to the defending champ Bucks when Giannis was at his peak. Most points in a Game 7 all-time. Led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists during their championship run. Played center defensively in that Finals. Super strong rebounder for his position, etc., etc. I will give you that his efficiency has seemed to drop in the playoffs the last few years and it feels like it drops sometimes even more in crunch time. Definitely acknowledge that. In defense of that though, if you really watch the Celtics, defenses completely gameplan to stop Tatum. The Pacers and Mavs in the 2024 run were shading 2-3 guys at Tatum. In the 2022 Finals (admittedly not his best performance) the Warriors said their gameplan was to stop Tatum and they basically left Brown open. A lot gets made of Brown winning the Finals MVP, but I'm a firm believer Tatum should have gotten it. I will admit with Tatum that he has superstar playoff games, but not necessarily superstar playoff moments. He'll have that 46 point Game 6 on the road againt Giannis where you win by 12 (not sure what we actually won that game by) or the 51 point Game 7 against Philly where you win by double-digits. He's not as great in the playoff moments down the stretch where it's a possession game and you need your superstar to hit 3-4 shots in a row in the last 2 minutes to win the game.

I think you either trade just Brown or you rebuild completely and trade both. The Achilles gives me pause, but you can build a championship contender around Tatum. He's a #1. Brown isn't. I'm not gonna claim to be an advanced metrics expert, but are you only looking at last season? I'm pretty sure the Celtics were deeply negative in the Philly series when Brown was on. From everything I've ever read the analytics part of basketball world doesn't think very much of Jaylen Brown. The Celtics are usually positive with Tatum lineups and negative with Brown lineups. Again I'm not an expert, but for their careers Tatum is far better in most advanced metrics.

I'll say this. Losing Brown sucks in the fact that the return wasn't what you'd hope for and that he was a homegrown star who had played 10 years for the C's and of course has the Finals MVP. With that said, I think the Celtics as of now are better next season than they were last season. If healthy, this isn't going to be some major drop-off. They may not win 56 games because the East will be a lot better (Sixers, Pacers, Raptors, Heat will all be better), but this is a playoff team still. The roster as of now is better than the roster last season. Tatum replacing Brown is an upgrade, and so far we've replaced Vucivic with PG, Mitchell Robinson and Mike Conley. The Celtics aren't a champion contender but it's a better roster than what we had entering last season.

Now that the initial shock of the trade is beginning to wear off, I think some things are clear. I love Jaylen Brown, my kids grew up on "The Jays", but the reality is the Celtics were not going to give him the Super Max extension that he is eligible for this summer. They were already struggling with paying him #1 money when he's a #2 on a title team, and the window was closing or even closed on the Tatum/Brown Celtics given new ownership and all of these different "apron" rules. The Celtics weren't going to commit to paying him $70M annually as he approaches the other side of 30 and would have had to commit to paying him that at 33-35 years old. I love Brown, but Tatum is the better player by quite a bit and teams no longer want to pay two guys the Super Max. The package Stevens got in return sucks. But it also shows nobody else was really willing to commit those dollars to Brown either. Teams want to reserve the Super Max for top 5 guys, not guys in the 10-25/30 range.

Yup. The easy part is done. They have a high-level, potentially elite core. Now they need to optimize the pieces around them.

Yeah, I don't know what the Spurs do with Fox. IMO I put him above Mitch Johnson as far as blame for this series, and Mitch Johnson was pretty bad, so that tells you how awful Fox was. They have to figure something out. Harper needs to take over, but you can't have Fox coming off the bench. In Celtics fan circles a few weeks ago there was talk that Fox would be a good fit with Tatum and Brown. After watching Fox the last two series, and I get he had a hurt ankle, but hell no. I don't want him anywhere near my team.

Yeah, like I said Wemby is a phenomenal, dominant freakish player. No doubt. And like you said, he's only 22 and will continue to get even better. No doubt about all of that. If/when the Spurs do win a title, he'll almost assuredly be the Finals MVP. But with that said, to be a closer he's going to have to develop an unstoppable offensive move or bag. He's super young, but at this point he's not a guy that in a close, tight playoff game that you clear out on 3-4 straight possessions and say, "take us home big fella". He's more LeBron than he is Jordan/Kobe. All three all-time greats with multiple titles and Finals MVPs.

Agree. As a Celtics fan I'll always love Luke Kornet, but his minutes killed the Spurs in this series. They need a quality big that can allow Wemby to rest in the playoffs and also play alongside him for stretches. They need an Al Horford type that can play with Wemby and spell him as well. The Spurs definitely have a bright future. They need to figure out the De'Aron Fox situation because Harper will need to become the point guard, and Fox absolutely killed them. I think he had money on the Knicks.

The Spurs are going to have to hope Harper develops into a closer, which is entirely possible, or they will need to acquire one. Wemby is obviously phenomenal and a freak of nature, but he's not an offensive game closer. He doesn't have a reliable offensive go-to move. In close games in the NBA you need a guy or two that you know can get you buckets under pressure. The Spurs are super young and can develop it, but right now they don't have it, and it showed when these games got to winning time.

Yeah, it's interesting. OG is great and a super impactful player, but I'm even surprised people have him above VO. I'm a Celtics fan and don't get me wrong, I'd would take OG on my team any time. With that said while his career was derailed by injuries so the longevity isn't there, VO was a two-time all star. OG to this point has never really sniffed an all star team. Team success is obviously important, but when talking best players there are levels and team success seperates you within those levels. So to me, VO being a two-time all-star puts him at a level above OG. Maybe a Finals MVP levels that a bit.

Yeah, Madar was a 2020 Celtics draft pick. Dude was drafted 6 years ago and played in the 2021 Vegas Summer League!?!? Bilas is the worst. He's literally trying to destroy the same system that made his adult life what it is.

Dude was a Celtics draft pick and Vegas Summer League darling for two years like 3-4 years ago.

Complete apples to oranges comparison here, so almost even irrelevant numbers, but Harris' numbers last year at Duke would have ranked him on IU: 1st in DRtg 3rd in ORtg

With you on what could have been done with Harris' money if you're saying Dorn is kept as our 9th-10th guy (which would be 4th or 5th guard). Just not as a starter or 6th man playing 20+ mpg.

Again, I agree with you on the vast majority of this conversation, just not Dorn. He was bad at basically everything except spot-up shooting (which he was really only average at). Can't imagine Dorn starting and/or playing 20+ mpg on a good or even upper-middle of the pack Big Ten Team. Maybe he proves me wrong at Miami, but the ACC isn't the Big Ten.

Sorry for pushing this, more just having a slow, relaxing weekend so figured it would be fun to chat on this. With that said, I'd argue that Dorn is so bad that having him playing 20+ minutes per game would significantly lower our ceiling next season. We had 9 rotation guys last season and he ranked 6th or worse per 100 possessions in nearly every category except for 3pt shooting and turnovers (mainly because he doesn't handle at all). He was our worst defender and second worst rebounder (slightly better than Enright). I don't see how one of our worst players last season would help next year's team as a starter (or 6th man) playing 20+ minutes. Like I said, fully agree with being skeptical of Harris and wondering what else we could have done with that money. I'm with you there. Just can't understand advocating for Dorn as part of that.

What other things does he provide? He was 6th out of 9 rotation players in offensive rating, 8 out of 9 in rebounding per 100 possessions and 9th in defensive rating. He does almost nothing beyond streaky spot-up shooting (34% outside of that 3 game stretch). He's an awful defender.

Again, I'm with you on your Harris stance, but we're never going to agree on Dorn. He was bad last season. Honestly, I would have taken Jasai Miles back in that spot before Dorn. At least Miles can defend and rebound his position, and then the staff could have had him making 300-500 spot-up 3s a day in the off-season to try and get him serviceable as a shooter. Much easier to improve a players shooting.

No, he's an awful defender. Like, really bad. He provides one thing and one thing only, streaky spot-up shooting. You're only focusing on points and 3pt shooting percentage. Dorn killed us defensively. Not saying he's the only reason, but it's not a coincidence that our defense went down the drain the back half of the season when our worst defender started getting more minutes. There's more to the game than just spot-up shooting. I get it's not fair to remove his 3-4 game heater, but outside of that he was very average at the one thing he's supposed to provide.

I'm not really backing Harris in some big way here, I have no idea if he'll make a leap with more playing time at IU. He could be really good, he could be really bad. It's a risk the staff is taking. My thing in this discussion is that we know Dorn is bad. Yeah, he had a few games where he got hot from 3 and no disputing his shooting was key to those big wins. But, he was basically terrible at everything else, and outside that hot shooting streak he was basically average at best at his one skill. He's a terrible defender (9th in defensive rating out of our 9 rotation guys) and a very limited offensive player. I have no issue with questioning whether we should have tried to spend Harris' NIL money elsewhere. Can completely buy that line of thinking. But the idea we should have kept Dorn instead, and especially as a starter. I can't get onboard with that. Dorn was bad last season.

Out of the 9 rotation guys (it was really 8 but let's count both Sisley and Miles) Dorn was 6th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating. He was bad last season and is not a Big Ten level starter on a good team, let alone a bad one. I'm not saying I know what Harris will be, but Dorn was the last returner I wanted us to bring back.

Yeah, I'm with you on what maybe else could have been done with that money. Split between two other guys, etc.? Just not with you on Dorn. Dorn was pretty bad last year. We don't know what Harris will be, completely agree there, but I can't imagine him being worse than Dorn outside of that 3-4 game heater.

It's my bad. I started the convo on asking what Dorn's numbers were if you take out that 3-4 game heater he had. Completely agree that its totally unfair to Dorn to do that. But yeah, I just think he's so limited. Would have been fine keeping as a 8th-10th guy in the rotation for experience and culture and some situational stuff, but my opinion is that he is not a starter on a good Big Ten team. I don't know that Harris is either, but I'd take my chances with his upside given how well thought of he was.

I know this isn't necessarily fair to Dorn, but I wonder what those shooting numbers are if you take out his 3-game heater? I also wonder what Harris can bring beyond. I'm not trying to hate on Dorn, but he did very little beyond streaky shooting. If Harris can defend better, has some handling or creating he can provide, etc., he could upgrade in other areas. I don't know if he can do those things, but from what I saw from Dorn he can't.

It's interesting how we all see things differently. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and HH or I am right. Who knows until it plays out. I agree with you that I was hoping we'd be able to add more proven pieces to the bench. I'm nervous we're going to have to rely on so many unproven pieces and and to varying degrees rely on 3 freshmen off the bench. We need another big and I also think another ball handler. I was hoping we'd be able to push Karvala and Manhertz down the depth chart with the last 2 additions. With all of that said, Nick Dorn is where we disagree. He was the returning player I wanted back least (outside of the two international guys from last year). I don't know what Harris will be, but I don't see how it can be worse than Dorn. Outside of his 3-game hot shooting streak, he was pretty awful. He's a terrible defender, doesn't handle or create offensively, really does very little outside very streaky spot-up shooting. Again, I have no idea what Harris will be, and can agree that I wonder what else we could have done with that NIL investment, but I don't see how Harris can be much worse than Dorn. Harris' ceiling is much higher IMO. Maybe Dorn will prove me wrong at Miami, but I wasn't too high on him last season.