Player and Recruit Retention News/Discussion & Potential Transfers

[bigrod]

9 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

As far as I know, Ron Patterson didn't ever play here because of Ron Patterson. Something about a summer class he needed to get admitted or a summer class here and he flunked out. That doesn't seem like an oversign thing to me at all. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, and I have no doubt someone will.

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).

We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

[mdn82]

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).
We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

Correct. He didn't flunk but didn't carry the grades to qualify.


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[JSHoosier]

18 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).

We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

This is accurate.  If I remember correctly he got a C- instead of a C.

[HoosierAloha]

I don't really buy that oversigning is necessary.  There's no rule against being under the scholarship limit, and even Crean with his wacky substitutions didn't go 11 or 12 deep; if you are there are other issues than being under the limit.
I really don't like the "it works itself out" argument some use; of course it does, there is literally no alternative.

I didn't clarify that at the end. I hope we see Archie not have to use the oversign and succeed. There's other successful programs out there doing it, we can too.

[Str8Hoosiers]

51 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Without oversigning, we wouldn't have a recruiting class right now, despite having four players currently in the draft. It is absolutely necessary.


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While technically true this season that is on Crean more than on Miller.... It is because Crean left us in this situation... but under normal circumstances in Archie's world we would possibly have only been using 11 scholarships last season, then OG leaves and we bring in 3 more.... and if JBJ or TB leave then we roll this season with 11/12 scholarships again.

Never need to have a situation like we will have next year with possibly 7/8 open positions we need to try to fill. Never have a situation where we have to "force" somebody out for the next shiny recruit.

Always leaves room for somebody that happens to fall in our lap or fixes a need via grad transfers etc...

[Hovadipo]

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).
We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

[TheWatShot]

He plagiarized a paper and got a zero, which brought his grade down to a C-. He then claimed IU saw this as a solution to the oversign situation and jumped on it. Maybe if he'd tried a little harder in high school it wouldn't have come down to that.

[bigrod]

Just now, Hovadipo said:

 

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

That is true, but if we had a scholarship available, do you think he would have "fully qualified?" I personally think it would have been a non-issue.

My whole thing with Crean was his whole approach to recruiting. He would offer 15 kids for 2 scholarships. He didn't seem to recruit based on need, and didn't seem to have any real plan. Every year he over recruited because it seemed he couldn't stand the thought of a single scholarship going unclaimed. It was almost like an addiction.

[bigrod]

5 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

He plagiarized a paper and got a zero, which brought his grade down to a C-. He then claimed IU saw this as a solution to the oversign situation and jumped on it. Maybe if he'd tried a little harder in high school it wouldn't have come down to that.

Well, if true, it obviously was a solution. Pretty hard to imagine Crean knew that was going to happen though.

[mdn82]

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

Absolutely. Crean and IU were clear what he had to do and gave him every bit of help during his probationary period. Crean wanted him to be a part of that class more than most of the movement. To insinuate he ran him off is asinine.


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[Bowhunter]

I hope we do over sign a little. Not to Crean's magnatude but I would like to see some of our 4 or 5 star kids make it to the NBA by year 2 or 3. This isn't Dayton and it's not Kentucky one and done. I just want consistent talent which will require an over sign here and there.

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[BGleas]

Oversigning because some guys are going to the NBA is one thing, oversigning because you don't want to grant Matt Roth or Colin Hartman a 5th year is another entirely to me. IMO, Crean fostered an atmosphere where guys felt they had to move on or graduate early, or that their spot wasn't safe. I think that's partly why recruiting began to fall off. 

For instance, I believe that Crean was still the coach that there is no way Hartman is coming back, and I think that's a mistake. Same thing with Roth in 12-13. 

[Hovadipo]

That is true, but if we had a scholarship available, do you think he would have "fully qualified?" I personally think it would have been a non-issue.
My whole thing with Crean was his whole approach to recruiting. He would offer 15 kids for 2 scholarships. He didn't seem to recruit based on need, and didn't seem to have any real plan. Every year he over recruited because it seemed he couldn't stand the thought of a single scholarship going unclaimed. It was almost like an addiction.

I agree with the Crean thing. The shotgun approach was crazy and dumb and put us in bad situations nearly every year. There's a difference between a strategic oversign and what Crean did. And then you have the problem with situational offers and "we're offering but don't accept until we tell you to". I don't like that at all and am certain that happened every year and there were some kids that probably got screwed by it. I have no evidence, just ideas from very closely watching our recruiting for 4-5 years.

[Uspshoosier]

Oversigning because some guys are going to the NBA is one thing, oversigning because you don't want to grant Matt Roth or Colin Hartman a 5th year is another entirely to me. IMO, Crean fostered an atmosphere where guys felt they had to move on or graduate early, or that their spot wasn't safe. I think that's partly why recruiting began to fall off. 
For instance, I believe that Crean was still the coach that there is no way Hartman is coming back, and I think that's a mistake. Same thing with Roth in 12-13. 

Crean did say in a press conference Hartman could come back if he wanted to. Roth got a raw deal in his situation ( yes I know he got a grad degree) but still he should of been able to play his last year


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[HoosierAloha]

I understand oversigning players but I don't like it. I also think there are advantages to not oversigning. Like mentioned above, you're not sending a message that you need to be gone after 4 years. If there is a scholarship available then reward a walkon.

We lacked senior leaders for most of Crean's tenure due to NBA departures, transfers, or not having a scholly available. Fourth and fifth year seniors can provide valuable leadership that a new frosh can't.

We might be losing only one scholarship player to the NBA yet Crean was still recruiting '17. Who would have gone? Hartman seemed to be one of them (fifth year senior leadership).

Have a solid 8-9 man rotation with players 10-12 willing to either work and wait their time or just bust their butt preparing the rotation players. Bag a scholly for a grad transfer or a high level spring commit. We need roster balance and upperclassmen to provide real leadership.

[DChoosier]

Just looked at today's NBADRAFT.NET  update.

At 28th OG is barely hanging on to the first round.  TB,JBJ and Rojo are not listed in the first or second round.  Hopefully they will stay but who knows, they might look at undrafted Troy and Yogi and think "that could be me".  

FWIW 8 of the projected top 20 picks are from just three schools (Duke, UCLA, UK).....none of which made the FF.

Edit: meant to say 8 of the top 20 picks are from 2 schools and Kentucky.

[VO5]

5 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

Just looked at today's NBADRAFT.NET  update.

At 28th OG is barely hanging on to the first round.  TB,JBJ and Rojo are not listed in the first or second round.  Hopefully they will stay but who knows, they might look at undrafted Troy and Yogi and think "that could be me".  

FWIW 8 of the projected top 20 picks are from just three schools (Duke, UCLA, UK).....none of which made the FF.

Draftexpress is the site you need to be looking at. OG is 15 and TB is 41. With all due respect, nbadraft.net is garbage.

[DChoosier]

1 minute ago, VO5 said:

Draftexpress is the site you need to be looking at. OG is 15 and TB is 41. With all due respect, nbadraft.net is garbage.

Thanks.

i have no idea who does a better job predicting the draft.

[VO5]

Just now, DChoosier said:

Thanks.

i have no idea who does a better job predicting the draft.

No prob. The guy running draftexpress (Jonathan Givony) really does his homework.

[LIHoosier]

6 hours ago, bigrod said:

You seem very angry, Tom. Is everything alright?

 

5 hours ago, Josh said:

I'm not Tom, and I'm great! Thanks for asking.

What am I missing from your Ron Patterson scenario?

Should've kept your 'signature' signature. ;)