Fire Darian DeVries? Lol

[AH1971]

Just now, Kentuckysucks said:

Because they already had great gigs when we pursued them.  The time to get Dusty was when he was at FAU.  Same for Matta at Xavier or Brad at Butler.  Or all the other schools wanting Cignetti.   The time to strike was when he was at JMU not when he has IU on top of the world.

Or maybe IU was never their "dream job" to begin with and they either landed at better programs or were at better programs to begin with.

 

[Golfman25]

15 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

IU is an after thought to A+ coaches these days...if the last 25 years weren't evident enough. 

Ok, C+ coaches.  :)  

The only people coaches have to worry about is Scott and Pam.  Not a bunch of us dorks on the interweb.  :)  

[IUFootballHappyHappyJoyJoy]

Jeez, and we just got rid of the old guy, lol.

I think the big problem is that, besides the football paradigm shift, is that Indiana just isn't that alluring a school anymore for basketball athletes anymore.  The coaches we get have a harder sell based on the lack of success, yet fans and donors still have the same expectations of 1987.

I mean... If we don't want to play on the NIT yet the team is mid AF, then what are we?

[8bucks]

2 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I think they were more worried about parting with Woodson and not as concerned about building the future. I also think the NIL transfer portal shocked them. I hear we put 10 million into the team.  I think they expected that to put themselves in a more advantageous position than it did.  With Kentucky at 22 and a few other schools going high, we goofed up too, by paying 13 when we should have focused primarily on 8.  And gone heavier in spots 1-5 than we did.  This is all stuff I’ve been talking about all offseason.  Not sure we can or want to do more with football taking the lions share now.  Getting a “superstar” would help fan engagement though.  We had one with TJD.  Homegrown.  
 

As always it boils down to winning basketball games. No matter how you do it.  Fans will flock.  

I agree that they underestimated the amount of NIL needed to compete in the portal for basketball (I even wonder if we are set up as well as we think in football given Cigs comment about our NIL in one of the postgame interviews).  Back to basketball, if they missed on the roster build for this year because they underestimated the portal NIL needs it would not explain why we missed on the HS effort we put in this summer.  From all accounts (Brian Snow/Rabby) we had more coaches out recruiting during the summer than many other programs.  Their takeaway was that other schools had largely passed on the 26/27 class because it was not as good and they were going to focus on the portal, which would leave us to clean up in the HS class.  We did OK, but we did not clean up by any means and it seems we either failed to convince a kid this was the place to be or the money still lags behind.  Granted, summer is not long after the spring portal season but to me it seemed like we may have realized we were not competitive in the portal so let's go grab some "cheap" HS kids and build that way.  Then we miss there too.

I have no idea if DD is a strong coach or a weak coach.  I do think kids get steered places by agents, HS and AAU coaches and if we don't have the money and don't have the on court success I am not sure we are going to land difference makers.  So, I fully expect Dolson to see that a buyout now may not be practical and will do his best fundraising job to try and get $ for both football and basketball.  Hopefully that $ is out there.

[AH1971]

56 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

I agree that they underestimated the amount of NIL needed to compete in the portal for basketball (I even wonder if we are set up as well as we think in football given Cigs comment about our NIL in one of the postgame interviews).  Back to basketball, if they missed on the roster build for this year because they underestimated the portal NIL needs it would not explain why we missed on the HS effort we put in this summer.  From all accounts (Brian Snow/Rabby) we had more coaches out recruiting during the summer than many other programs.  Their takeaway was that other schools had largely passed on the 26/27 class because it was not as good and they were going to focus on the portal, which would leave us to clean up in the HS class.  We did OK, but we did not clean up by any means and it seems we either failed to convince a kid this was the place to be or the money still lags behind.  Granted, summer is not long after the spring portal season but to me it seemed like we may have realized we were not competitive in the portal so let's go grab some "cheap" HS kids and build that way.  Then we miss there too.

I have no idea if DD is a strong coach or a weak coach.  I do think kids get steered places by agents, HS and AAU coaches and if we don't have the money and don't have the on court success I am not sure we are going to land difference makers.  So, I fully expect Dolson to see that a buyout now may not be practical and will do his best fundraising job to try and get $ for both football and basketball.  Hopefully that $ is out there.

I think the NIL money was more than adequate. How it was allocated and roster construction far bigger issue. A front court that has no size, length, or athleticism is a recipe for disaster.

[HoosierDevils]

With info I could find, here’s approximately what might be roster spend for KP top 30 teams:

Rank	School	AdjEM	Est Cost ($M)
1	Michigan	+36.09	10.0
2	Arizona	+34.03	13.0
3	Duke	+33.20	15.0
4	Houston	+31.36	8.0
5	Iowa State	+31.08	6.0
6	Gonzaga	+31.01	5.0
7	Purdue	+30.91	7.0
8	Illinois	+30.52	7.5
9	Michigan State	+30.14	7.0
10	Florida	+29.92	8.0
11	Connecticut	+28.79	8.0
12	Nebraska	+27.03	5.5
13	Virginia	+26.99	6.0
14	BYU	+26.67	12.0
15	Louisville	+26.23	10.0
16	Vanderbilt	+26.14	6.5
17	Alabama	+25.35	7.0
18	Kansas	+25.33	9.0
19	Texas Tech	+25.27	10.0
20	Iowa	+24.45	5.0
21	Arkansas	+24.29	10.0
22	St. John’s	+24.09	10.0
23	Tennessee	+23.59	8.0
24	Kentucky	+21.75	22.0
25	Georgia	+21.47	6.0
26	Villanova	+21.27	7.5
27	NC State	+21.07	6.5
28	Clemson	+21.01	6.5
29	Saint Louis	+20.46	4.5
30	Auburn	+20.41	8.0
37	Indiana	+18.40	10.0

And from The Athletic, here’s estimated average roster cost by conference:  
If we think IU’s was around 10-12, then it’s not the largest budget by any means but solidly above average across all conferences, noting the SEC figure is heavily skewed by UK. 

[ap2345]

DeVries gets a mulligan this year. However if he doesn't make the tournament next year he will likely have a very short tenure in Bloomington

[Aaron]

Again, thank you for proving my point that we have one of the most fair-weather and reactionary fan bases out there. I get people are impatient with the program for past screw ups, but this is mostly not DeVries' fault.

DeVries absolutely screwed up with bringing in Bailey and with an adequate center this is an obvious tournament team. How he addresses this problem will tell us a lot about if he has the chops to compete at this level.

I have said I am not convinced this is a coaching issue anymore but a resource issue of robbing Peter to pay Paul with football and its worked out beautifully in the sense it got football to a ceiling basketball has not seen in at least 30 years.

If we want both programs funded at a high level, we need better resources and more money. A big part of that is adding 20,000 seats to football and the fans showing they won't bail at the first eight win season as has happened far to many times across IU athletics in similar scenarios.

Until our casual fans (and I don't mean the loyal ones who see things through thick and thin) decide to support winning teams at a high level and not just elite teams, resource issues will continue and right now all the money we do have is rightly in football.  

DeVries is not an elite coach like Cig but will be as good as the players and resources he is given. Unlike Archie or Woodson who couldn't coach even a good team, DeVries will win at exactly the level his talent gives him. 

He was already turning around West Virginia and can do same here if given the proper support. If not he will be the latest of a long line of coaching failures. Its that simple. 

[IUHoosierJoe]

14 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Again, thank you for proving my point that we have one of the most fair-weather and reactionary fan bases out there. I get people are impatient with the program for past screw ups, but this is mostly not DeVries' fault.

DeVries absolutely screwed up with bringing in Bailey and with an adequate center this is an obvious tournament team. How he addresses this problem will tell us a lot about if he has the chops to compete at this level.

I have said I am not convinced this is a coaching issue anymore but a resource issue of robbing Peter to pay Paul with football and its worked out beautifully in the sense it got football to a ceiling basketball has not seen in at least 30 years.

If we want both programs funded at a high level, we need better resources and more money. A big part of that is adding 20,000 seats to football and the fans showing they won't bail at the first eight win season as has happened far to many times across IU athletics in similar scenarios.

Until our casual fans (and I don't mean the loyal ones who see things through thick and thin) decide to support winning teams at a high level and not just elite teams, resource issues will continue and right now all the money we do have is rightly in football.  

DeVries is not an elite coach like Cig but will be as good as the players and resources he is given. Unlike Archie or Woodson who couldn't coach even a good team, DeVries will win at exactly the level his talent gives him. 

He was already turning around West Virginia and can do same here if given the proper support. If not he will be the latest of a long line of coaching failures. Its that simple. 

One thing I would add that I don’t think anyone is considering or has posted…not having Josh Harris has hurt this team significantly. Yes, anyone could look at this roster and stats from last year and see that it was going to be a weak rebounding team. Josh Harris grabbed .314 rebounds per minute last season, the best of anyone on the roster. And while big men don’t usually have as much success with offensive numbers when they go from a mid-major to a power school, rebounding often translates. So, not having Harris has made a glaring weakness much worse. 

[Stuhoo]

20 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

One thing I would add that I don’t think anyone is considering or has posted…not having Josh Harris has hurt this team significantly. Yes, anyone could look at this roster and stats from last year and see that it was going to be a weak rebounding team. Josh Harris grabbed .314 rebounds per minute last season, the best of anyone on the roster. And while big men don’t usually have as much success with offensive numbers when they go from a mid-major to a power school, rebounding often translates. So, not having Harris has made a glaring weakness much worse. 

Not sure about that. Harris is smaller than Alexis, never has played against high-major players, and when he was healthy in Puerto Rico got almost zero run.

[Golfman25]

37 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Again, thank you for proving my point that we have one of the most fair-weather and reactionary fan bases out there. I get people are impatient with the program for past screw ups, but this is mostly not DeVries' fault.

DeVries absolutely screwed up with bringing in Bailey and with an adequate center this is an obvious tournament team. How he addresses this problem will tell us a lot about if he has the chops to compete at this level.

I have said I am not convinced this is a coaching issue anymore but a resource issue of robbing Peter to pay Paul with football and its worked out beautifully in the sense it got football to a ceiling basketball has not seen in at least 30 years.

If we want both programs funded at a high level, we need better resources and more money. A big part of that is adding 20,000 seats to football and the fans showing they won't bail at the first eight win season as has happened far to many times across IU athletics in similar scenarios.

Until our casual fans (and I don't mean the loyal ones who see things through thick and thin) decide to support winning teams at a high level and not just elite teams, resource issues will continue and right now all the money we do have is rightly in football.  

DeVries is not an elite coach like Cig but will be as good as the players and resources he is given. Unlike Archie or Woodson who couldn't coach even a good team, DeVries will win at exactly the level his talent gives him. 

He was already turning around West Virginia and can do same here if given the proper support. If not he will be the latest of a long line of coaching failures. Its that simple. 

The problem is the plan, not the money.  We have the money to field a competitive team.  We have a senior heavy team this year, which means we get to start all over again next year.  That's fine, if this year's team was good enough to attract attention.  But it's not.  It's a total bust. 

So now what?  Try the same thing again?  Find some underclassmen who might hang around for a few years and build a program?  

Do not forget, we got smacked, at home, by a similarly talented Iowa team.  Friday might be an adventure.   

[IUHoosierJoe]

7 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Not sure about that. Harris is smaller than Alexis, never has played against high-major players, and when he was healthy in Puerto Rico got almost zero run.

What aren’t you sure about? Was Harris actually healthy in Puerto Rico? I mean, the stats are the stats, and everybody else’s rebounds per minute has pretty much translated. 

[Hovadipo]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not what’s happening here. Peter isn’t getting paid because he’s an incompetent dunce and Paul is getting paid because he f*****g rips. Peter and Paul get to share in Paul’s spoils if Peter gets his head out of his ass. 

That’s about as much metaphoring as I can fit in one text box. 

[Stuhoo]

5 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

What aren’t you sure about? Was Harris actually healthy in Puerto Rico? I mean, the stats are the stats, and everybody else’s rebounds per minute has pretty much translated. 

I'll attempt to answer each of your questions:

1. What am I not sure about? I'm not sure if Harris would be any help at all to our front line. Actually;  I was trying to be kind. I doubt that Harris would be much help at all.
2. Yes; Harris was healthy in Puerto Rico. Full practices and plenty of minutes, though largely in garbage time.
3. If everybody's stats have translated he'd be about as good in garbage time as he was then, and that's not especially helpful.

Hope I'm wrong btw.

[IUHoosierJoe]

4 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I'll attempt to answer each of your questions:

1. What am I not sure about? I'm not sure if Harris would be any help at all to our front line. Actually;  I was trying to be kind. I doubt that Harris would be much help at all.
2. Yes; Harris was healthy in Puerto Rico. Full practices and plenty of minutes, though largely in garbage time.
3. If everybody's stats have translated he'd be about as good in garbage time as he was then, and that's not especially helpful.

Hope I'm wrong btw.

I think having the best rebounder on the team available for minutes would help with rebounding. It wouldn’t make us a good rebounding team, but it would make a glaring weakness a little less weak. How would his offense and defense translate? I don’t know. I haven’t seen him enough. But having him available would give us 5 more fouls and some rebounding once in a while.

[Hoosierfan2017]

1 hour ago, Aaron said:

Again, thank you for proving my point that we have one of the most fair-weather and reactionary fan bases out there. I get people are impatient with the program for past screw ups, but this is mostly not DeVries' fault.

DeVries absolutely screwed up with bringing in Bailey and with an adequate center this is an obvious tournament team. How he addresses this problem will tell us a lot about if he has the chops to compete at this level.

I have said I am not convinced this is a coaching issue anymore but a resource issue of robbing Peter to pay Paul with football and its worked out beautifully in the sense it got football to a ceiling basketball has not seen in at least 30 years.

If we want both programs funded at a high level, we need better resources and more money. A big part of that is adding 20,000 seats to football and the fans showing they won't bail at the first eight win season as has happened far to many times across IU athletics in similar scenarios.

Until our casual fans (and I don't mean the loyal ones who see things through thick and thin) decide to support winning teams at a high level and not just elite teams, resource issues will continue and right now all the money we do have is rightly in football.  

DeVries is not an elite coach like Cig but will be as good as the players and resources he is given. Unlike Archie or Woodson who couldn't coach even a good team, DeVries will win at exactly the level his talent gives him. 

He was already turning around West Virginia and can do same here if given the proper support. If not he will be the latest of a long line of coaching failures. Its that simple. 

There are too many things for people to do these days for fans to grind through watching a mediocre IU team filled with players who fans feel no connection with. I was excited before the season because IU plays at Rutgers and I’d be able to catch a game in person. Now, though, I’m just going to pocket the few hundred bucks and have it on in the background while I watch Netflix or something.

Does that make me a “fair weather” fan? Maybe, I don’t know. Every relationship is two-sided, even the fan/team one. If the team doesn’t give the fans something worth watching (I.e., IU basketball for the better part of this century), fans will lose interest. 

[Kentuckysucks]

2 hours ago, ap2345 said:

DeVries gets a mulligan this year. However if he doesn't make the tournament next year he will likely have a very short tenure in Bloomington

He needs to do more than just make the tournament. Needs to be a really good season. A bubble team with a first weekend exit almost certainly equals an inevitable firing after year 3.

Not sure how he accomplishes much more than that unless he gets extremely lucky or Dolson can find him a lot more $.

[DChoosier]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

There are too many things for people to do these days for fans to grind through watching a mediocre IU team filled with players who fans feel no connection with. I was excited before the season because IU plays at Rutgers and I’d be able to catch a game in person. Now, though, I’m just going to pocket the few hundred bucks and have it on in the background while I watch Netflix or something.

Does that make me a “fair weather” fan? Maybe, I don’t know. Every relationship is two-sided, even the fan/team one. If the team doesn’t give the fans something worth watching (I.e., IU basketball for the better part of this century), fans will lose interest. 

I am in the same boat. Was going to fly to The Hall to catch a game. Flights (2 of us), rental car, hotel, meals, tickets  would have been in the 2k range. That money is now staying in my pocket ( it is coming out of my pocket later this year for either the OSU or USC home football game..).

Hopefully this works out. In order for DD to be successful two of the most important things are for him to succeed at roster construction and having the cash to build the desired roster. I’m not confident but am hopeful.

[Aaron]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

There are too many things for people to do these days for fans to grind through watching a mediocre IU team filled with players who fans feel no connection with. I was excited before the season because IU plays at Rutgers and I’d be able to catch a game in person. Now, though, I’m just going to pocket the few hundred bucks and have it on in the background while I watch Netflix or something.

Does that make me a “fair weather” fan? Maybe, I don’t know. Every relationship is two-sided, even the fan/team one. If the team doesn’t give the fans something worth watching (I.e., IU basketball for the better part of this century), fans will lose interest. 

Completely agree on most of this and saying DeVries messed up bringing in Bailey and this year is a disappointment is completely fair.

However, saying DeVries is over his head or incompetent when he clearly was able to make things work elsewhere is ridiculous. To want to fire him after one year and already ponder this is also asinine. He clearly made some recruiting errors and how he addresses this in offseason will say a lot. In this age of college sports a team can go from rags to riches in one season.

In general, not wanting to support this years team and go all in, I am completely on board with. What I am not on board with and is unique to our fan base, is being completely unwilling to support solid but not elite teams when it comes to any IU sport and this is absolutely the case. 

Its why resources are lower here and right now a lot of those are rightly going to football. For people on here who want success in both, I recommend not dropping your football tickets the first time Cig wins eight or nine games. Would not happen anywhere else but very likely to here based on past precedent unfortunately.

[Home Jersey]

1) I highly doubt Cig ever wins just 8 games here to be completely honest.

2) DDV hasn't even been a HC for a full decade. This is his second year of power conference basketball. He's going to make mistakes and he needs to learn from them. I don't see much reason to doubt he will. Hopefully he can execute better this time around. 

3) He hasn't coached 20 games here yet and people already think the base case is an inevitable firing after year 3? Really? We don't even know who is on next year's team lol (yes that's part of what's driving the anxiety). Some folks seem very paper handed by nature. That's okay. But white knuckling the entire DDV era, how ever long it lasts, doesn't seem like a fun way to experience IUBB fandom. 

4) If our basketball NIL is really 10M and that's competitive with the rest of the market (albeit not leading), keep it exactly where it is and give every surplus dollar to football in perpetuity until basketball earns it, whoever the coach is.