Transfer Portal w IU Interest

[rcbowla 7,160]

15 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

You act as if playing through the post is some archaic system. News flash, there are literally dozens among dozens of teams “who play through the post” that still emphasize shooting from the perimeter, namely the two teams who played for the national title game Monday night. Also that Arizona team with Tubelis and Ballo included.

 “Playing through the post” does not literally mean ball goes in and doesn’t come out, no matter how much you want to think it does. I’m not sure what you saw out of our back court this last season that would make you think taking MORE perimeter shots would have lead to a better outcome? The personnel simply did not exist with that fault laying at the feet of Woodson.

The new wave of guards the staff are coveting are of a completely different dynamic. Three level scorers of who can not only create for themselves but for others. I would expect the volume of perimeter shots to increase exponentially next year if we land our priority targets.

Because 32% and 28% warrant that? I'm not sure what you've seen from those two to suggest shooting MORE perimeter shots is a recipe for success. 

[HoosierAloha 30,077]

Would love to see UCONNs stats regarding % of plays in the post if that stat exist. I didn’t watch a lot of UCONN this season but I didn’t see a lot of tossing it into the post and standing around waiting for Clingan to shoot. Having a 4 that can shoot from outside helps along with attacking guards and wings that can score. Basically, they were exactly like IU in that they put 5 players on the court.

[AH1971 1,575]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Would love to see UCONNs stats regarding % of plays in the post if that stat exist. I didn’t watch a lot of UCONN this season but I didn’t see a lot of tossing it into the post and standing around waiting for Clingan to shoot. Having a 4 that can shoot from outside helps along with attacking guards and wings that can score. Basically, they were exactly like IU in that they put 5 players on the court.

Clingan was the highest usage player on the team this last season as was Sonogo the year prior. 
 

And your comment is exactly what I’m talking about, passing it into the post and waiting for your 5 to shoot isn’t what playing through the post means.

[AH1971 1,575]

9 minutes ago, rcbowla said:

Because 32% and 28% warrant that? I'm not sure what you've seen from those two to suggest shooting MORE perimeter shots is a recipe for success. 

Again, from Freshman. Carlyle’s volume and efficiency numbers were identical to that of Fletcher Loyer his freshman season. Rice shot ~35% for nearly 80% of the season before he ended in a terrible slump. Unless you think freshman are capped after their first season, I’m not sure what else to tell you. I’d suggest you watch film on either instead of looking at box scores.

[RaceToTheTop 26,278]

10 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Would love to see UCONNs stats regarding % of plays in the post if that stat exist. I didn’t watch a lot of UCONN this season but I didn’t see a lot of tossing it into the post and standing around waiting for Clingan to shoot. Having a 4 that can shoot from outside helps along with attacking guards and wings that can score. Basically, they were exactly like IU in that they put 5 players on the court.

Yes, but U Conn won for more than the reason that didn't throw it into the post as much as IU.  One of the biggest offensive factors was that despite the fact that U Conn ran a VERY slow pace -- their tempo rate was 330th in the nation -- that they didn't turn the ball over much at all.  And they were #4 in defense in the nation.  If IU had the same defensive efficiency and as U Conn ran the same offensive efficiency, their overall efficiency would have been at about 23 in the nation -- or basically Kentucky.  U Conn had soooo many offensive options that they didn't need to throw it in the post that much despite having a very good center.  Hopefully IU can get to that point

[HoosierAloha 30,077]

Clingan was the highest usage player on the team this last season as was Sonogo the year prior. 
 
And your comment is exactly what I’m talking about, passing it into the post and waiting for your 5 to shoot isn’t what playing through the post means.

How much of that usage was tossing it into the post and letting him go to work vs. movement to get him an advantage to score?

If we toss the ball into the post and stand around for another season we won’t be near as successful as we could be.

[RaceToTheTop 26,278]

5 hours ago, AH1971 said:

Assembly Call had a great take on this the other day. Ballo played with Tubelis 2 years ago (6’10 240 lbs) who had almost identical shooting numbers to Reneau. They essentially played two traditional bigs with 3 dynamic guards only one of which shot above 40% from 3. They had a top 5 KenPom offense.

Ballo is not a high usage player. He’s not somebody who takes 15 shots a game that you force feed every possession. He’s great in PnR lob action and a garbage man on the offensive boards. Get the ball up to the rim and he’s going to get it.

He also gets a lot of his points on put backs.  He averaged 3.6 offensive rebounds at Arizona but only took a touch over 8 shots.

[AH1971 1,575]

1 minute ago, RaceToTheTop said:

He also gets a lot of his points on put backs.  He averaged 3.6 offensive rebounds at Arizona but only took a touch over 8 shots.

Exactly and why it’s hilarious watching all these people lose their collective minds about Ballo potentially coming. They’ve literally never watched him play. He’s not a guy who camps on the block and fed entry every trip down. He’s very good at lob PnR and being the bottom on high/low action. But understandably, there’s a quota several posters need to hit.

[AH1971 1,575]

11 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

How much of that usage was tossing it into the post and letting him go to work vs. movement to get him an advantage to score?

If we toss the ball into the post and stand around for another season we won’t be near as successful as we could be.

I can’t physically pinpoint an exact percentage but they ran several sets a game where the ball would go into Clingan in the post and they’d run very sophisticated off-ball action to either free up a shooter or have a free lane cutter to the basket. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,222]

58 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

You act as if playing through the post is some archaic system. News flash, there are literally dozens among dozens of teams “who play through the post” that still emphasize shooting from the perimeter, namely the two teams who played for the national title game Monday night. Also that Arizona team with Tubelis and Ballo included.

 “Playing through the post” does not literally mean ball goes in and doesn’t come out, no matter how much you want to think it does. I’m not sure what you saw out of our back court this last season that would make you think taking MORE perimeter shots would have lead to a better outcome? The personnel simply did not exist with that fault laying at the feet of Woodson.

The new wave of guards the staff are coveting are of a completely different dynamic. Three level scorers of who can not only create for themselves but for others. I would expect the volume of perimeter shots to increase exponentially next year if we land our priority targets.

News flash? You’re strangely argumentative. Woodson’s play through the post style of play, in case you missed it, had our offense completely lacking in outside shooting— we’re one of the worst shooting teams in all of DI ball.
Newsflash? Really? Get a grip. his style is to play the ball through two forwards without wing play and without outside shooting guards. It’s 70’s ball. pretty much everyone here recognizes that his “style” of play is what is killing our ability to win. If you can’t see that maybe think about why we were so horrible this year. 

[RaceToTheTop 26,278]

4 hours ago, Home Jersey said:

Hickman is visiting soon right? 

The more I think about it the more I want him.

He visits Sunday.  Think he arrives at the same time as Ballo.

[AH1971 1,575]

9 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

News flash? You’re strangely argumentative. Woodson’s play through the post style of play, in case you missed it, had our offense completely lacking in outside shooting— we’re one of the worst shooting teams in all of DI ball.
Newsflash? Really? Get a grip. hos style is to play the ball through two forwards without wing play and without outside shooting guards. It’s 70’s ball. pretty much everyone here recognizes that his “style” of play is what is killing our ability to win. If you can’t see that maybe think about why we were so horrible this year. 

Argumentative? It’s a message board, lighten up. I just acknowledged that lack of guard play last year was the reason for our offensive demise. And it had nothing to do with “playing through the post” or “playing 2 traditional bigs” but everything to do with poor guard/wing play. We weren’t a bad perimeter team because we “played through the post”, we were a bad perimeter team because we had guards who couldn’t shoot or create their own shot.

Purdue played heavy minutes with two traditional bigs this past season as did Arizona two years ago with Tubelis and Ballo and yet both teams still yielded top 5 KenPom offenses. 

[Feathery 4,005]

31 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

News flash? You’re strangely argumentative. Woodson’s play through the post style of play, in case you missed it, had our offense completely lacking in outside shooting— we’re one of the worst shooting teams in all of DI ball.
Newsflash? Really? Get a grip. his style is to play the ball through two forwards without wing play and without outside shooting guards. It’s 70’s ball. pretty much everyone here recognizes that his “style” of play is what is killing our ability to win. If you can’t see that maybe think about why we were so horrible this year. 

His offense also got a lot of open shots that players missed or passed up on bc they aren’t good shooters in game situations. A lot of people point to the Kenpom off efficiency being around 100 as poor offense. But a lot of it comes down to poor guard play. We beat the mid majors on the schedule by a larger margin, the. IU’s offense is around 50 with the same win loss record. 

[AH1971 1,575]

2 minutes ago, Feathery said:

His offense also got a lot of open shots that players missed or passed up on bc they aren’t good shooters in game situations. A lot of people point to the Kenpom off efficiency being around 100 as poor offense. But a lot of it comes down to poor guard play. We beat the mid majors on the schedule by a larger margin, the. IU’s offense is around 50 with the same win loss record. 

Any good offense starts and stops with quality guard play regardless of the system, the style, or the pace in which you play. Bottom line. You have to have guys who can make shots. Hate to rag on some of the guys but our guards just flat sucked last year. And that burden falls on Woodson and it’s something he appears to be addressing this offseason. But this call for doom and gloom next year because of the “system” or the “style” or because “two bigs” irrespective of what happens in the portal is just lazy analysis. 

[str8baller 5,515]

2 hours ago, Feathery said:

We beat the mid majors on the schedule by a larger margin, the. IU’s offense is around 50 with the same win loss record.

Sure, but the flip side of that coin--and the bad news--is that we way over performed in the W/L dept relative to our efficiency metrics. We should've probably been in the 15-16 win range per something like kenpom. 

 

So it's easy to say blow out the lesser teams on our schedule except we almost lost some of those or were in dog fights well into the second half.  Saying we should have blown them out is like saying we should have just not got blown out by uconn, auburn and Purdue. It is what it is.  

 

So I think the point some are trying to get across is that you can land Rice, Ballo and Carlyle and jump into the top 50 in offense and defense but that may put you more in the realm of a bubble team like Oklahoma or Ohio state. It doesn't necessarily give you an offense like Arizona or uconn. Those two aren't even alike.  How some can confuse what those teams are doing with what Woody does is beyond me... especially since we played and got our butts kicked by both in the last two years.  

If the point is, Rice,  Carlyle and Ballo put us back into the realm of bubble team status, or maybe better, then I think most agree. A lot of unknown variables could still shift that one way or another, but until proven otherwise Woodys style of play isn't one of those unknowns for me.

[Feathery 4,005]

2 hours ago, str8baller said:

Sure, but the flip side of that coin--and the bad news--is that we way over performed in the W/L dept relative to our efficiency metrics. We should've probably been in the 15-16 win range per something like kenpom. 

 

So it's easy to say blow out the lesser teams on our schedule except we almost lost some of those or were in dog fights well into the second half.  Saying we should have blown them out is like saying we should have just not got blown out by uconn, auburn and Purdue. It is what it is.  

 

So I think the point some are trying to get across is that you can land Rice, Ballo and Carlyle and jump into the top 50 in offense and defense but that may put you more in the realm of a bubble team like Oklahoma or Ohio state. It doesn't necessarily give you an offense like Arizona or uconn. Those two aren't even alike.  How some can confuse what those teams are doing with what Woody does is beyond me... especially since we played and got our butts kicked by both in the last two years.  

If the point is, Rice,  Carlyle and Ballo put us back into the realm of bubble team status, or maybe better, then I think most agree. A lot of unknown variables could still shift that one way or another, but until proven otherwise Woodys style of play isn't one of those unknowns for me.

So if IU won more than the metrics would indicate, then one could argue that’s good coaching. lol. 
 

Nobody and I mean nobody is saying IU is going to be UConn or Arizona. What people are saying is the most dominant team in the country plays with 2 bigs. The arguably best team on the west coast plays with 2 bigs as well.  Those teams offenses are very good to elite. The idea that IU is going to suck bc they have 2 bigs is just emotional IU fan hate towards Woody. And I say that as someone who would have supported a change. 
 

Now for the not blowing out lesser teams. The debate point for me is X missed significant time and Cupps was starting and wasn’t ready for D1 basketball. He needs to physically develop. That made Galloway play a position he was also not ready for. It took time for Galloway to get where he needed to be in the PG role. That is why IU’s metrics sucked. Now there was an open scholarship that everyone was clamoring to be used on a guard and that’s on Woody.

The argument for Rice, Carlyle, and Ballo isn’t that will get them to a top 50 offensive efficiency and a bubble team. It’s that it’s an immediate upgrade at the PG and one wing spot. And it’s a Center that doesn’t need the offense to play through him. Which should indicate a more guard oriented offense. Which circles back to UConn playing with 2 bigs and their guards can still get to the rim without it being overly congested. UConn only had a couple good shooters on the court and were in the 90-100 range in 3pt attempts (Purdue was like 270ish, 5 more per game), averaging 8 more attempts per game.
 

Besides Mgbako IU didn’t have anyone that I felt comfortable shooting the 3 at a high volume. He had the green light to shoot it and did. I’d expect in a guard focused offense under Woody, IU will increase their 3 point attempts bc the talent will be better in that area. Also, the guards we may be getting are also far superior at the free throw line. Which has been as big an issue than 3pt shooting imo. Freshmen to sophomore development should see Rice and Carlyle both at 34-36% 3pt shooters. They are good FT shooters and that translates well to 3pt % development. 
 

I think people have pitted themselves into a corner of wanting Woody gone so everything IU doesn’t is wrong and terrible. I’m in the camp of he is back, and we are going to play a 2 big system, so go get the players that can optimize that. 
 

Depending on how the rest of the roster fills out officially, will set expectations for next year. But I want a top class so that expectations is to be a top 25 team after Atlantis and to chase a conference title. We shall see how the Big Ten rosters fill out but the top teams are losing a lot of impact. 

[IU Prof 903]

6 hours ago, AH1971 said:

I can’t physically pinpoint an exact percentage but they ran several sets a game where the ball would go into Clingan in the post and they’d run very sophisticated off-ball action to either free up a shooter or have a free lane cutter to the basket. 

This is all correct. Unfortunately,  the bolded part is the key. And that's something that Woodson has never shown any ability or interest in implementing. Instead, he sticks shooters in the corner and has them stand there for the entire possession.

UConn ran an extremely complex and dynamic modern offensive system. IU plays through the post in a 1990s sense. Two completely different animals, to the point that analogizing them is offensive to what Hurley has implemented.

[IU Prof 903]

17 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Which circles back to UConn playing with 2 bigs and their guards can still get to the rim without it being overly congested. UConn only had a couple good shooters on the court and were in the 90-100 range in 3pt attempts (Purdue was like 270ish, 5 more per game), averaging 8 more attempts per game.

 

Except UConn didn't play 2 bigs. Karaban was the 4. Completely different player and skill set than Reneau.

[tyappleg 3,310]

7 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Now for the not blowing out lesser teams. The debate point for me is X missed significant time and Cupps was starting and wasn’t ready for D1 basketball. He needs to physically develop. That made Galloway play a position he was also not ready for. It took time for Galloway to get where he needed to be in the PG role. That is why IU’s metrics sucked. Now there was an open scholarship that everyone was clamoring to be used on a guard and that’s on Woody.. 

Just addressing this point, but X played in 4.5 out 7 games against what I would consider lesser teams last year.  We sucked in all of them.  Him being on/off the court didn't really matter. 

[IUCrazy2 2,543]

6 hours ago, Feathery said:

His offense also got a lot of open shots that players missed or passed up on bc they aren’t good shooters in game situations. A lot of people point to the Kenpom off efficiency being around 100 as poor offense. But a lot of it comes down to poor guard play. We beat the mid majors on the schedule by a larger margin, the. IU’s offense is around 50 with the same win loss record. 

If my aunt had nuts....