IUBB vs Rutger aka/Ruger - Tuesday, 2/7/23 @ 6:30 on BTN

[RaceToTheTop]

7 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

We are 5-1 since his return. I don't mind him starting but around the 13-14 minute mark, it's time for Malik to come in for him. I love the senior leadership but you can tell he's just not 100% yet. That brace looks to weight 10 lbs itself. 

Of note:

During this last eight game stretch:

Race (6 games):  120 minutes, 8 of 26 from the field, 0 of 8 from three,  of 16 of 18 from the line, 19 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks, 5 steals, 9 turnovers, 32 points.

Reneau (8 games):  131 minutes, 24 of 40 from the field, 1 of 1 from three, 12 of 14 from the line, 33 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 1 steal, 7 turnovers, 61 points.  Still has foul issues, 24 fouls.

Geronimo (5 games):  79 minutes, 13 of 23 from the field, 2 of 4 from three, 2 of 3 from the line, 22 rebounds, 2 assists, 5 blocks, 1 steal, 8 turnovers, 30 points.

Combined totals in 8 games:  330 minutes (so 41.3 per game -- basically all the power forward minutes + a minute at the 5):  45 of 89 from the field (51%), 3 of 13 from three (23%), 30 of 35 from the line (86%), 74 rebounds, 16 assists, 10 blocks, 7 steals, 24 turnovers, 123 points.

So IU has been getting 15.4 points, 9.3 rebounds, and 2 assists per game out of the power forward position.

One thing to keep in mind is that I believe that even though Race has been the worst of the three offensively in this stretch, I believe our defensive PPP has been much better with him in as opposed to Malik or JG.  Honestly, I'm fine with the minutes getting split and Reneau or Race moving over to the 5 when TJD needs a rest.

[realTomCrean]

18 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

We are 5-1 since his return. I don't mind him starting but around the 13-14 minute mark, it's time for Malik to come in for him. I love the senior leadership but you can tell he's just not 100% yet. That brace looks to weight 10 lbs itself. 

This was my exact thought last night after the traditionary post-game phone call with my dad and arguing over him starting or not. My dad loves to say that Woody sticks with his and doesn't change. I agree with him, but like you said he needs to come out after the first segment. Malik has been playing better and the upside is clear for all to see. Malik may not start, but we can't have Thompson doubling him in minutes if we are serious about making a run

[go iu bb]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

 

He's FG% is my issue.  It's pretty bad.  He's shown he can hit the 3 but I'm not sure those numbers aren't inflated a little by sample size due to FG/FT%.  He's got everything else it seems.  So, I agree with Chris he can soar with a strong March performance.  I can see an argument either direction, and i'm clearly not an NBA exec but i'd want to see improved FG% from him.  

He will be interesting to follow in mocks.  

If they see something in his shooting that can be fixed, I don't think that would turn them off of him. They have great coaches in the NBA who can improve his shooting. It might be an issue if they think it's unfixable and he's just a bad shooter and will likely not improve much even with more coaching.

The game has changed some since the mid-90s, but I remember Eric Snow from MSU having a long NBA career. That surprised me because he was a terrible shooter in college. Very bad. Sub-.500 FT shooter bad. So there is precedence for a PG who can't shoot still being valuable.

[RaceToTheTop]

12 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

He needs to be suspended a game. That was childish. With him doing it to Trayce that doesn't help his cause. I'm sure Woodson and company was on the phone with the B1G first thing this morning. 

Yeah, it was definitely intentional.  Disappointed in it because I really do like Mulcahy's game -- he plays hard, scores, rebounds, passes well, defends well.  Gets the most out of his ability.  But you can't do crap like that.  That's the same infraction that got Derek Elston suspended for a game when he was at IU.

[RaceToTheTop]

2 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

This was my exact thought last night after the traditionary post-game phone call with my dad and arguing over him starting or not. My dad loves to say that Woody sticks with his and doesn't change. I agree with him, but like you said he needs to come out after the first segment. Malik has been playing better and the upside is clear for all to see. Malik may not start, but we can't have Thompson doubling him in minutes if we are serious about making a run

One thing to keep in mind:  Malik starting and getting any kind of big minute increase likely results in him being in foul trouble a lot.  Even in this string where he's played well, he's picking up a foul every 5 1/2 minutes.  Limiting him to 15 to 20 minutes allows him to not change his style of play at all and allows you to have the ability to have him available at big moments that he wouldn't be available for if he were in foul trouble.

[HoosierHoopster]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

 

He's FG% is my issue.  It's pretty bad.  He's shown he can hit the 3 but I'm not sure those numbers aren't inflated a little by sample size due to FG/FT%.  He's got everything else it seems.  So, I agree with Chris he can soar with a strong March performance.  I can see an argument either direction, and i'm clearly not an NBA exec but i'd want to see improved FG% from him.  

He will be interesting to follow in mocks.  

NBA drafts on talent / upside and to an extent combine / team workout results. He's a two-way big, strong, quick scoring lead guard. JHS has just about every physical trait and intangible an NBA team could want in an on-ball guard, and he's clearly been a major factor in our winning streak. I don't think there's any real question that he's a first rounder at this point, question is where in first round not if. Rest of season and tourney will probably impact placement, but he'll test waters and get direct feedback, and will make his decision on that. 

[HoosierHoopster]

4 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

One thing to keep in mind:  Malik starting and getting any kind of big minute increase likely results in him being in foul trouble a lot.  Even in this string where he's played well, he's picking up a foul every 5 1/2 minutes.  Limiting him to 15 to 20 minutes allows him to not change his style of play at all and allows you to have the ability to have him available at big moments that he wouldn't be available for if he were in foul trouble.

His foul rate has been the issue all season for sure, but he's been improving on it / learning to bang and get position without fouling better. 2 fouls against PU in 20 minutes, including going directly at Frankenstein. 0 fouls in 14 minutes against rugby twit - Rutger players (he should have played more, but the 3 TO's likely were why he didn't). He's not fully there yet but he's improving, and imo what he brings to the table merits more time.

[HoosierFan1994]

Hot Take: I don't think Rutgers will be as successful with their incoming classes. Rutgers wins because of the kind of players they recruit. Do we really see 5 stars playing like this? I don't think so...Rutgers is the new Wisconsin. 

[JSHoosier]

7 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

Hot Take: I don't think Rutgers will be as successful with their incoming classes. Rutgers wins because of the kind of players they recruit. Do we really see 5 stars playing like this? I don't think so...Rutgers is the new Wisconsin. 

Considering how long Wisconsin has been a pain in the arse, all I can think is 'ugh.

[realTomCrean]

13 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

If they see something in his shooting that can be fixed, I don't think that would turn them off of him. They have great coaches in the NBA who can improve his shooting. It might be an issue if they think it's unfixable and he's just a bad shooter and will likely not improve much even with more coaching.

The game has changed some since the mid-90s, but I remember Eric Snow from MSU having a long NBA career. That surprised me because he was a terrible shooter in college. Very bad. Sub-.500 FT shooter bad. So there is precedence for a PG who can't shoot still being valuable.

The drawback that I see is JHS willingness to finish at the rim rather than settle for a mid-range pull up. He hits the pull up well, but undoubtedly costs himself by not attacking the basket - that would go further for his %. He braces for contact on nearly every drive and lay in and is admittedly not a great finisher at the rim. Another thing I've noticed, for a large guard his vertical is suspect. Fortunately, that will improve as he gets older and more into S&C. JHS in my mind is mid-to-late 1st Rd pick. Assume that he is leaving, but as several have mentioned on here there is a LARGE amount of $$ for an IU star next year. His tourney success does play a lot into his choice - hopefully we get to the Final Four and he's averaging 20/4/4. Stay or go, Indiana is in a great spot going forward. Go Hoosiers!! 

 

Now... onto the lil wolverines 

[hoosierbgh]

I've read less than 2 full pages and checked the title of this thread 4 times already to make sure I was actually in the IU vs. Rutgers thread instead of some thread discussing alternate realities. 

JHS won't get drafted this year?

The team is better without X?

Did some IU fans get into the same stuff that convinces BIG refs that Edey needs to be protected or that Wisconsin never commits a foul? I'm struggling to come up with another viable explanation for such interesting and nonsensical takes.

 

[str8baller]

30 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

stretch, I believe our defensive PPP has been much better with him in as opposed to Malik or JG.  H

Good post, overall. And I’d bet that statement is right. It Is the reason Woody sticks with him.  
 

Our defensive effectiveness in-game seems to plummet as soon as the subs come in. A lot of that is Bates, but the freshman have their problems. That’s how team defense works—one guy screwing up can wreck the whole thing. Reneau and Geronimo have come a long way, but the coaching staff seems to be willing to live with Race’s offense so long as he isn’t making the mental mistakes others are making.
 

Again…last night he started the game, started the second half and finished the game. Those were 3 of our four best stretches, as a team. Race has issues but the team clearly plays fine with him out there overall. 

[CSP]

30 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

His foul rate has been the issue all season for sure, but he's been improving on it / learning to bang and get position without fouling better. 2 fouls against PU in 20 minutes, including going directly at Frankenstein. 0 fouls in 14 minutes against rugby twit - Rutger players (he should have played more, but the 3 TO's likely were why he didn't). He's not fully there yet but he's improving, and imo what he brings to the table merits more time.

He didn't defend too well at all last night and scouting report wise he was pretty poor, as well. He did play without fouling, but he was never really attacked off the dribble, or in the post. 

He wasn't on the floor the last 5 1/2 mins because he had no one to guard on the defensive end. McConnell was playing their 4 man. 

[HoosierHoopster]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

He didn't defend too well at all last night and scouting report wise he was pretty poor, as well. He did play without fouling, but he was never really attacked off the dribble, or in the post. 

He wasn't on the floor the last 5 1/2 mins because he had no one to guard on the defensive end. McConnell was playing their 4 man. 

Eye of the beholder :) -- In 26 minutes Race was 1-6 with a whopping 3 rebounds, 2 TO's and 2 fouls. He didn't play well. Our second half was kind of scary. Meanwhile, Malik had 5 points and 5 boards in those 14 minutes -- it was his TOs. Simple fact seems to be staff will roll with experience over talent even when experience underperforms, same issues we had with the Stewart/Kopp starting backcourt last year, no matter what. I've said I don't mean to disparage Race, and I don't, but there's no question he's not 100% and he really isn't playing well.

[rcbowla]

His foul rate has been the issue all season for sure, but he's been improving on it / learning to bang and get position without fouling better. 2 fouls against PU in 20 minutes, including going directly at Frankenstein. 0 fouls in 14 minutes against rugby twit - Rutger players (he should have played more, but the 3 TO's likely were why he didn't). He's not fully there yet but he's improving, and imo what he brings to the table merits more time.

I was more ok with his TO's last night than Race's. At least when MR turns it over he's trying to be aggressive. Maybe too much at times but it's not throwing to the 12th man on the other team's bench.

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[str8baller]

5 minutes ago, hoosierbgh said:

JHS won't get drafted this year?

Maybe he won’t or maybe he will, but this game is a perfect example of why NBA teams will hesitate on him being a sure fire first round pick. 
 

Forget the shooting and focus on the ball handling. Rutgers decided to blitz him on PnR’s and he didn’t handle it well. He couldn’t split it (ideally what nba guys would like to see), he often couldn’t get a pass off and just retreated. Almost none of those Rutger guys are NBA-level defenders.  
 

JHS is great. My friends that aren’t IU fans love how smooth he is scoring. But as chris007 wrote, a hot streak or not in the tourney might be the difference between him going and staying. He could come back another year and improve his stock. Lots of guys who were much better athletes have taken a second year to improve their stock.   
 

JHS could easily come back next year and have a Johnny Davis type year and play himself into a lottery pick like Davis did. 

[AKHoosier]

I wish they would limit Race to spot duty in oder to give him more time to heal. 

He's clearly not himself, therefore shouldn't be given more than 8 mpg or so.

Reneau is ready.

[rcbowla]

I think Race does a lot of good things but he also does a lot of bad. Typical player I suppose. Problem is right now it's about a 2:1 bad vs good. He killed momentum several times last night.

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[CSP]

Just now, HoosierHoopster said:

Eye of the beholder :) -- In 26 minutes Race was 1-6 with a whopping 3 rebounds, 2 TO's and 2 fouls. He didn't play well. Our second half was kind of scary. Meanwhile, Malik had 5 points and 5 boards in those 14 minutes -- it was his TOs. Simple fact seems to be staff will roll with experience over talent even when experience underperforms, same issues we had with the Stewart/Kopp starting backcourt last year, no matter what. I've said I don't mean to disparage Race, and I don't, but there's no question he's not 100% and he really isn't playing well.

My comments had nothing to do with Race. But no, it was the defensive end as to why Race plays more mins. 

Kopp? Stewart? Who was starting over them? They started because they were our best options to go with TJD in the starting lineup. Hell.. couple of games TG still vastly outplayed Kopp in mins. 

Malik really struggles defensively. He struggles a lot when asked to guard a 6'7 SR guard in McConnell. That is NOT a good matchup for Malik. And.. maybe even more than he would struggle to guard McConnell, he would really struggle with a couple of others that RU ran out there when there were switches. 

I think twice in the second half Malik sunk and gave up open 3s in transition (RU missed)... in the first half he completely over helped and gave an open 3, when their backup FR big was rolling to the basket as TJD was guarding him. That's really bad defense. Until the staff trusts Malik on the defensive end, he is going to be taken out in those situations and it isn't negligence on Woodson and staffs behalf when they do so. 

[CSP]

6 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

I was more ok with his TO's last night than Race's. At least when MR turns it over he's trying to be aggressive. Maybe too much at times but it's not throwing to the 12th man on the other team's bench.

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Malik... did the exact same thing lol