2019 Off-Season IU Roster News and Moves

[DChoosier]

15 hours ago, A.j. Nigh said:

I liked Jake and his energy and saw some potential as an upper class man but let’s be honest, we saw Jake for roughly 100 minutes (I admit I didn’t look it up).  Archie saw him 100 minutes every practice. You really think he purposely played a worse player over Jake?  Obviously Jake and Moore weren’t ready and Archie saw that in practice or they would have played.  

Yes,

Archie knew we needed help/depth underneath, we were in the midst of losing 12/13 which I assume Archie desperately wanted to stop,  but he still did not give Moore or Jake decent playing time.  There was a reason (or many reasons) that Archie felt they were not ready. On top of that Race comes back after missing 80% of the season and immediately gets more time than either of them.  Race will be one of our “get old” guys (hopefully) and I don’t think we will miss Moore or Jake at all ( I wish them them the best). 

[ebridges24]

1 hour ago, Crimson and Cream said:

I refuse to believe that. Fitzner was unproductive on both sides of the ball (that's saying it in a nice way). Moore and Forrester both showed flashes in their limited minutes that Fitzner never showed.

Agreed, unless Clifton and Jake drug @$$ in every practice they should have been playing ahead of Fitz.

[Hoosier116]

I liked Jake and his energy and saw some potential as an upper class man but let’s be honest, we saw Jake for roughly 100 minutes (I admit I didn’t look it up).  Archie saw him 100 minutes every practice. You really think he purposely played a worse player over Jake?  Obviously Jake and Moore weren’t ready and Archie saw that in practice or they would have played.  

Agree!! I trust Archie Miller because he is a college basketball coach who was chosen to lead this program. I’m not in the business of doubting his assessment. It says probably more about Jake that he didn’t play over these guys that we all tend to agree werent very good (Fitz mainly). I don’t think Archie didn’t play him for funsies.


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[RaceToTheTop]

I think if you took the worst coach in division 1 you'd still find that a guy that plays 56 minutes on his team the whole year wasn't going to help your team.  

[Walking Boot of Doom]

1 hour ago, Joe DeLow said:

It’s almost comparable. We get a stud point guard(Rob and Yogi). A big guy that is playable(Thompson and Hanner). A wing that fizzles out(Anderson and Hollowell). A big that didn’t really even play(Forrester and Jurkin). And a guy that never even played at IU(Hunter and Patterson). Romeo is the outlier and it is debatable how much we ended up getting out of him outside of some good highlights and glimpses of what he can do on both ends of the court. This class didn’t have the hype around everyone, but the situations are comparable enough.


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You've wasted too much of your life thinking about this.

[WayneFleekHoosier]

You've wasted too much of your life thinking about this.

Although super premature, it’s probably a fair point at the moment.

Obviously we need 2 more years to really know.


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[Walking Boot of Doom]

4 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Although super premature, it’s probably a fair point at the moment.

Obviously we need 2 more years to really know.


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Not going to dig into the rankings side of this argument and the marketing hype that surrounded the Movement. It's not even closely relatable.

[Bailey7878]

I'd look for a couple more to exit.  It sounded and often looked to me like Archie was learning this season.  Learning about the kids on his team; learning about the kids he sort of blindly recruited (see : Anderson); and learning what kind of program he needs.   Some don't/didn't fit.
Without naming names, I don't think this is close to done / "cleaned up" yet, and I think there are a whole lot of new faces waiting to join the fray next season; many of them with experience elsewhere.

I agree i think one or two more leave. All 13 will never play anyway. Its just not possible.

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[southernindianahoosier2]

Sometimes players play better in games than they do in practice. It can also be a downward spiral for someone like Jakel that if you're not playing in games, why would you practice harder? I get that if you're not playing you should practice harder to prove yourself. But lets say you practice harder for weeks and still don't see the court, its so easy to give up. Especially when you see players that you think you're better than end up playing ahead of you. It totally makes sense if he gave up and was negative about the entire situation, didn't like the coaching and then drug other players down to his level. Its easy to see multiple players upset at the coaching decisions and acting out behind closed doors or in the locker room when the coach isn't around.

 

From a coaching standpoint, if you only have Fitzner for 1 year and you have Jake for 4, wouldn't it make more sense to play your freshman more to give them that experience so they can contribute more effectively in year 2 and 3? Especially during the 12 game skid...

 

I get everyone's viewpoint, but from the outside looking in, I just don't get why we would make excuses. It reminds me of 2012-2013 when Cody Zeller won the 3pt contest in Hoosier Hysteria and then Crean refused to let him shoot it from outside. A lot of people on sites like this said the same things defending Archie this year as they did Crean. Then in 2015 Wisconsin (with a similar team) let Kamisky shoot the 3 whenever he was open and was feeling it. I'm having flashbacks to the Crean years when everyone was making excuses after excuses defending the coach... Full disclosure is that I think we should Fire Archie for Chris Beard; and knowing that will never happen; I think he should get next year to prove himself. But to call questionable coaching decisions anything other than questionable coaching decisions is anything but helpful when we are trying to resurrect the program and take it back to greatness.

[Bailey7878]

I refuse to believe that. Fitzner was unproductive on both sides of the ball (that's saying it in a nice way). Moore and Forrester both showed flashes in their limited minutes that Fitzner never showed.

I guess but we are not at practice and ive made it known im not a fitzner fan so trust me i would rather of had him on the bench. So whats your theory why he would not play jake?

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[Kepner]

3 hours ago, Old Friend said:

I'd look for a couple more to exit.  It sounded and often looked to me like Archie was learning this season.  Learning about the kids on his team; learning about the kids he sort of blindly recruited (see : Anderson); and learning what kind of program he needs.   Some don't/didn't fit.

Without naming names, I don't think this is close to done / "cleaned up" yet, and I think there are a whole lot of new faces waiting to join the fray next season; many of them with experience elsewhere.

Does the APR situation allow for a handful of departures? I thought that was an issue

[Old Friend]

Just now, Kepner said:

Does the APR situation allow for a handful of departures? I thought that was an issue

I'm not sure, exactly.   I know it's mostly a measure of how scholarship athletes perform academically; and I THINK it matters if the kids who leave are in academic trouble....meaning they were struggling.    Lots of schools have kids leave for myriad reasons, so I don't believe it's an issue...but I truly don't know.

[Kepner]

Just now, Old Friend said:

I'm not sure, exactly.   I know it's mostly a measure of how scholarship athletes perform academically; and I THINK it matters if the kids who leave are in academic trouble....meaning they were struggling.    Lots of schools have kids leave for myriad reasons, so I don't believe it's an issue...but I truly don't know.

Well I have read several times from IU best writers that the reason Archie didn’t overhaul the roster when he came in is because the APR seas so bad that kicking a bunch of guys off would’ve resulted in a postseason ban because of the APR

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Sometimes players play better in games than they do in practice. It can also be a downward spiral for someone like Jakel that if you're not playing in games, why would you practice harder? I get that if you're not playing you should practice harder to prove yourself. But lets say you practice harder for weeks and still don't see the court, its so easy to give up. Especially when you see players that you think you're better than end up playing ahead of you. It totally makes sense if he gave up and was negative about the entire situation, didn't like the coaching and then drug other players down to his level. Its easy to see multiple players upset at the coaching decisions and acting out behind closed doors or in the locker room when the coach isn't around.
 
From a coaching standpoint, if you only have Fitzner for 1 year and you have Jake for 4, wouldn't it make more sense to play your freshman more to give them that experience so they can contribute more effectively in year 2 and 3? Especially during the 12 game skid...
 
I get everyone's viewpoint, but from the outside looking in, I just don't get why we would make excuses. It reminds me of 2012-2013 when Cody Zeller won the 3pt contest in Hoosier Hysteria and then Crean refused to let him shoot it from outside. A lot of people on sites like this said the same things defending Archie this year as they did Crean. Then in 2015 Wisconsin (with a similar team) let Kamisky shoot the 3 whenever he was open and was feeling it. I'm having flashbacks to the Crean years when everyone was making excuses after excuses defending the coach... Full disclosure is that I think we should Fire Archie for Chris Beard; and knowing that will never happen; I think he should get next year to prove himself. But to call questionable coaching decisions anything other than questionable coaching decisions is anything but helpful when we are trying to resurrect the program and take it back to greatness.

I tend to agree with almost all of this. I don’t want Archie fired though.

I think he’s learning some tough lessons. IMO this team didn’t mesh with Archie. I don’t want to read into things, but not a single senior specifically thanked Archie. That’s a bad look.

I fully agree, some guys are gamers. Jake and Clifton always looked better to me than Fitzner in limited minutes.

I think Archie felt he could trust Fitzner better, and Fitzner was a better practice player.

Idk, I’m not mad about losing who we lost because we desperately need roster turnover. I just think Archie had a rough year with this team.

I actually think Romeo should have been benched at times too. Smith for sure, and he eventually did forever late.


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[Brass Cannon]

Could the reason Moore and Jake never played over Fitzner was because the decision to part ways had already been made thus the concept of building for the future was moot?

[Bailey7878]

Could the reason Moore and Jake never played over Fitzner was because the decision to part ways had already been made thus the concept of building for the future was moot?

I do not believe that. Jake always cheered like crazy and seemed into it. Archie just clearly thought he could not give valuable minutes. I have not been super happy with archie but he isnt playing to lose so there was a reason he did not play.



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[Crimson and Cream]

59 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

I guess but we are not at practice and ive made it known im not a fitzner fan so trust me i would rather of had him on the bench. So whats your theory why he would not play jake?

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I think he just trusted too much in the senior to figure it out, that he felt Fitzner was experienced enough to put out there and eventually come through. Well, he didn't. It started off hot in game one and went into a downward spiral from there. He couldn't score, rebound, defend. Nothing. Sure Moore and Forrester had their issues. That much was obvious from their limited minutes. But with those deficiencies they also brought things to the table that our other bigs couldn't. More specifically Fitzner.  

I think Archie kept hoping Fitzner would start hitting 3's, something this team so desperately needed. It just didn't happen. And the two guys who played hard and showed some flashes when given the chance were glued to the bench. I just didn't agree with it. By no means is this a "fire Archie" argument from me. But this season was bad for a multitude of reasons and this is one I had an issue with. 

[Bailey7878]

I think he just trusted too much in the senior to figure it out, that he felt Fitzner was experienced enough to put out there and eventually come through. Well, he didn't. It started off hot in game one and went into a downward spiral from there. He couldn't score, rebound, defend. Nothing. Sure Moore and Forrester had their issues. That much was obvious from their limited minutes. But with those deficiencies they also brought things to the table that our other bigs couldn't. More specifically Fitzner.  
I think Archie kept hoping Fitzner would start hitting 3's, something this team so desperately needed. It just didn't happen. And the two guys who played hard and showed some flashes when given the chance were glued to the bench. I just didn't agree with it. By no means is this a "fire Archie" argument from me. But this season was bad for a multitude of reasons and this is one I had an issue with. 

Like i said i did not like fitzner at all. He was terrible but archie must have seen something not to play jake.

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[Geometry Hoosier]

I tend to agree with almost all of this. I don’t want Archie fired though.

 

I think he’s learning some tough lessons. IMO this team didn’t mesh with Archie. I don’t want to read into things, but not a single senior specifically thanked Archie. That’s a bad look.

 

I fully agree, some guys are gamers. Jake and Clifton always looked better to me than Fitzner in limited minutes.

 

I think Archie felt he could trust Fitzner better, and Fitzner was a better practice player.

 

Idk, I’m not mad about losing who we lost because we desperately need roster turnover. I just think Archie had a rough year with this team.

 

I actually think Romeo should have been benched at times too. Smith for sure, and he eventually did forever late.

 

 

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My college baseball coach always said there is no such thing as a gamer because if you don't perform in practice, you aren't getting in the game.

 

 

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[jonz44]

6 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I tend to agree with almost all of this. I don’t want Archie fired though.

I think he’s learning some tough lessons. IMO this team didn’t mesh with Archie. I don’t want to read into things, but not a single senior specifically thanked Archie. That’s a bad look.

I fully agree, some guys are gamers. Jake and Clifton always looked better to me than Fitzner in limited minutes.

I think Archie felt he could trust Fitzner better, and Fitzner was a better practice player.

Idk, I’m not mad about losing who we lost because we desperately need roster turnover. I just think Archie had a rough year with this team.

I actually think Romeo should have been benched at times too. Smith for sure, and he eventually did forever late.


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I believe you're correct on most of this. Your last paragraph? When you tell players you do or do not want specific things done and they blatantly disobey? You lose their respect and the respect of the other players as well. I thought the frustration was very evident on Archie's face and in his body language this year. More so than last year. It'll be interesting to see how this offseason continues to play out and what transpires next season. I really think the next 12 months are make or break time for Archie. Hope he makes it.