The Season Is Finally Over, Now Where Does This Program Go?

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Aloha, Aloha, Aloha!!! Preach my man!


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These last few seasons of IU basketball have me falling out of my hammock. If I could drink I’d be stumbling around falling into a body of water with these shenanigans.


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[MikeRoberts 6,921]

Our talent might not have been that great. I think we had talent, some hurt and some young. When you have that you get inconsistency but (!) to go 1-12 during that stretch is more than just talent. It’s coaching, it’s chemistry, it’s culture, it’s pride, it’s effort, it’s confidence and we lacked a whole lot of that more than we lacked talent.

You don’t beat the brakes off Marquette (playing well at the time), beat MSU x2, Wiscy, etc. if you don’t have some talent.

Where was the player leadership that said “this isn’t how I’m going out?!” We didn’t have it. We had a bunch of players just going with the flow. When things were going well they were excited and into the game. When things weren’t going well it was about individuals. Give me a Yogi and Bryant screaming at each other. Give me a Hulls that’s kicking a ball after defeat.

We need DAWGS that hate losing. That’s when the CULTURE will return to the glory days. That’s when we go into games knowing we’re going to win. We have players putting up shots hoping they’ll go in, not expecting it. We have players that aren’t too upset when they miss a rotation or don’t close out to contest a shot. Give me players that are pissed when a teammate is dogging it or doesn’t hit a shot because they haven’t been in the gym grinding it. Give me players that live basketball.


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Who are the guys in 20 and 21 that are those dawgs, guys that refuse to lose and it eats away at them when they do?




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[ray 1,563]

On 3/26/2019 at 9:46 PM, jonz44 said:

Oh man, you're probably gonna get killed for this but I'm kinda in agreement. Results matter above all else. Ours as a team weren't very good the last two years. Hope they improve.

Well, I disagree with you both.  The team's results weren't what we wanted, yet his personal results speak volumes.

We will agree to disagree.

 

On 3/26/2019 at 9:43 PM, Alford Bailey said:

Could we actually be better without Morgan next year?? He was not a great leader, didnt give 100% all the time and kinda picked when he wanted to play. This team kinda took on his personality. We need a consistent leader to step forward.

I completely disagree that he didn't give effort 100% of the time.  Just because a player makes mistakes or doesn't reach his scoring and rebound average every night doesn't mean he's not giving effort, especially when the player had to log a lot of minutes all season due to injuries and had to play against players 30-40 pounds heavier and 3-4" taller for most of those minutes.  Many nights the ball didn't go through him as often as it should have, and instead, our inefficient shooters at the guard spot (and elsewhere) jacked up the three ball.  

 

Maybe I'm biased and too proud of Juwan Morgan's personal accomplishments to see the ONE CONSISTENT player on this team be ridiculed because the team as a whole didn't live up to expectations which were too high to begin with, but I just don't see it the way you two do.  The only thing he lacked was accurate free throw shooting, as did most the team.  That, I agree, was excruciatingly painful to witness night in and night out.  But to say, he "picked when he wanted to play" is ridiculous in my eyes.  As for leadership, that should be on the coaching staff before any player.  How is one player supposed to right a ship that was sinking the way this team's ship was, with all the locker room crap and bad attitudes?  That's a lot to place on a single player.  Most seasons have more than one player to lead on and off the court.  From what I hear, he did lead by example on and off the court.  Maybe he lacked verbal leadership, but does anyone know that for sure?  It's quite possible other players on the team refused to listen, as it certainly appeared (at least for parts of the season) there were certain players who were selfish and entitled.  There were plenty of games when he didn't do what we expect from him, but he has given heart and soul to this team since the days of popping his shoulder into place and hopping back onto the court to grab a crucial one-armed ebound or to block a shot with an arm that is far from healthy. 

I guess I just didn't see what you two saw...and the thirteen others who agree with you.

 

15.5 points per game and 8.2 rebounds per game is almost averaging a double double.  I'm not sure what else to say.

 

I didn't read the rest of the comments yet from this thread, but I for one don't see how anyone can discredit Morgan and what he managed to accomplish in an Indiana uniform.

 

And yes, Jesus Shuttlesworth, I did say he was undersized.  He was.  Often by a lot.

 

I don't think anyone on this team had a heart bigger than their body, like a Yogi or Moye, but to say Juwan  OFTEN disappeared is silly.

[indianaranger 108]

Program continues to climb up the ladder.

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Who are the guys in 20 and 21 that are those dawgs, guys that refuse to lose and it eats away at them when they do?




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It starts before we ever get a commit in the 20 or 21 classes. If we’re counting on the 20 and 21 classes to find those players were in deep trouble. I’m not around the players so I don’t see what the coaches do. My “leadership training” comes from a completely different background but has shown to be highly effective. (Not me, the form in which it is engrained in the person)

I’ve seen Durham show some fight and a bit of DAWG. I think there is a ton untapped that needs to come out. I believe Green cares but hasn’t always been geared towards lifting his teammates to a higher level. Phinisee absolutely has to take on a leadership role. Look at the teams, just in the Big Ten who are excelling. Winston, Simpson, and Edwards are all leading. We need that from Phin so by his junior and senior years it’s not even a question.

If I’m Archie I’m putting this on those 3 players and adding Davis in too. He has spoken about this but needs to prove it. It’s not enough for Durham to get in Cook Hall to get shots up. He needs to be pulling Green, Anderson, and Franklin (when he arrives) in and setting up competitions. Best out of 100 threes gets dinner from the others. First one to miss a free throw has to wear a shirt that says “player X is better.”

We need competition between Green and Phinisee everyday. We need them to run open gyms with stakes that will have them getting on teammates for missing rotations or dogging it. One player coming in (Romeo this past season) isn’t going to fix it. There needs to be a CULTURE of do your job to the best of your abilities, all the time and hold your teammates accountable. We’re currently not close.


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[ray 1,563]

12 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Justin Smith; heard it.

He was trying to choose his words carefully but got trolled into expanding on his feelings a bit too much.  He is SUCH a bright young guy, but you could feel his resentment throughout his interview.

Thought DeVonte was very very gracious in his postgame interview.

 

If Chris was referring to the Justin Smith interview, then his paraphrasing used a whole lot of artistic license.  I didn't hear anything about him wanting to be a primary ball handler or to play most of his minutes on the perimeter.  Maybe it just went way over my head, but I didn't see it.

[Brass Cannon 24,271]

6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

It starts before we ever get a commit in the 20 or 21 classes. If we’re counting on the 20 and 21 classes to find those players were in deep trouble. I’m not around the players so I don’t see what the coaches do. My “leadership training” comes from a completely different background but has shown to be highly effective. (Not me, the form in which it is engrained in the person)

I’ve seen Durham show some fight and a bit of DAWG. I think there is a ton untapped that needs to come out. I believe Green cares but hasn’t always been geared towards lifting his teammates to a higher level. Phinisee absolutely has to take on a leadership role. Look at the teams, just in the Big Ten who are excelling. Winston, Simpson, and Edwards are all leading. We need that from Phin so by his junior and senior years it’s not even a question.

If I’m Archie I’m putting this on those 3 players and adding Davis in too. He has spoken about this but needs to prove it. It’s not enough for Durham to get in Cook Hall to get shots up. He needs to be pulling Green, Anderson, and Franklin (when he arrives) in and setting up competitions. Best out of 100 threes gets dinner from the others. First one to miss a free throw has to wear a shirt that says “player X is better.”

We need competition between Green and Phinisee everyday. We need them to run open gyms with stakes that will have them getting on teammates for missing rotations or dogging it. One player coming in (Romeo this past season) isn’t going to fix it. There needs to be a CULTURE of do your job to the best of your abilities, all the time and hold your teammates accountable. We’re currently not close.


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Agreed. I think we are going to see transfers  hopefully we can get Brunk to help give our bigs some attitude and toughness   

For our guards we need to get smarter and mentally tough more than anything  shooting is key here too.  

 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Agreed. I think we are going to see transfers  hopefully we can get Brunk to help give our bigs some attitude and toughness   
For our guards we need to get smarter and mentally tough more than anything  shooting is key here too.  
 

It’s an overall culture issue. Toughness, physically and mentally, will come with internal competitiveness. We don’t have it. Smarter will come when players compete. We have players that are comfortable and don’t necessarily feel that they need to change.


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[Brass Cannon 24,271]

Just now, HoosierAloha said:

It’s an overall culture issue. Toughness, physically and mentally, will come with internal competitiveness. We don’t have it. Smarter will come when players compete. We have players that are comfortable and don’t necessarily feel that they need to change.


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Agreed on all counts. One of my main issues with Archie was how long it took to hold Smith accountable and how quickly he was let loose again. 

Very much just a slap on the wrist. If a guy is routinely phoning it in during a game it can’t wait nearly a dozen games to be addressed. And when you address it has to stick. Otherwise the players will see that and see no reason to change. Did Smith get better for a time. Sure. But it’s like after you get a ticket you drive the speed limit the next few days but soon you are back to your old ways. 

Lack of effort has to be punished swiftly and signifacntly with the bench. I’d rather lose with a guy trying than a guy not trying.

The players have to build the culture but Archie has to discipline the players when they try to rebel against it.  These guys aren’t all sub 200 guys with a chip on their shoulder sometimes they need to be given one. 

[LamarCheeks 18,152]

2 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Our talent might not have been that great. I think we had talent, some hurt and some young. When you have that you get inconsistency but (!) to go 1-12 during that stretch is more than just talent. It’s coaching, it’s chemistry, it’s culture, it’s pride, it’s effort, it’s confidence and we lacked a whole lot of that more than we lacked talent.

You don’t beat the brakes off Marquette (playing well at the time), beat MSU x2, Wiscy, etc. if you don’t have some talent.

Where was the player leadership that said “this isn’t how I’m going out?!” We didn’t have it. We had a bunch of players just going with the flow. When things were going well they were excited and into the game. When things weren’t going well it was about individuals. Give me a Yogi and Bryant screaming at each other. Give me a Hulls that’s kicking a ball after defeat.

We need DAWGS that hate losing. That’s when the CULTURE will return to the glory days. That’s when we go into games knowing we’re going to win. We have players putting up shots hoping they’ll go in, not expecting it. We have players that aren’t too upset when they miss a rotation or don’t close out to contest a shot. Give me players that are pissed when a teammate is dogging it or doesn’t hit a shot because they haven’t been in the gym grinding it. Give me players that live basketball.


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I wasn't a Celtics or Larry Bird fan back in the 80s, but I have a HUGE appreciation for them now. One of my favorite moments was when the Lakers beat the snot out of the Celts in Game 3 of the 1984 NBA Finals. 

After the game, Bird said Boston played like sissies and added, "We've got some great players on this team, but we don't have the players with the heart sometimes that we need. Today, when you see Magic slappin' high fives and guys going behind their backs and shooting layups on us all day long, it seems like somebody would put a stop to it. Until we get our hearts where they belong, we're in trouble."

Boston won the next game -- and the series. 

When we were getting our butts kicked in Lafayette and at home against Michigan and Nebraska and at Minnesota, I wanted someone to step up and say, "THIS HAS TO STOP! ... RIGHT NOW!" ... But either nobody did, or if someone said that, nobody listened. 

We need a player who can take that kind of leadership role on. And players who get pissed when we perform like we did at Minnesota. Watching these guys during some of the times we were getting absolutely humiliated -- some of them seemed as if they just didn't care. If we don't get that kind of leadership and want-to from the the players themselves, we will continue to get whipped by Purdue and by Nebraska and by Michigan and by Minnesota. 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

I wasn't a Celtics or Larry Bird fan back in the 80s, but I have a HUGE appreciation for them now. One of my favorite moments was when the Lakers beat the snot out of the Celts in Game 3 of the NBA Finals. 
After the game, Bird said Boston played like sissies and added, "We've got some great players on this team, but we don't have the players with the heart sometimes that we need. Today, when you see Magic slappin' high fives and guys going behind their backs and shooting layups on us all day long, it seems like somebody would put a stop to it. Until we get our hearts where they belong, we're in trouble."
Boston won the next game -- and the series. 
When we were getting our butts kicked in Lafayette and at home against Michigan and Nebraska and at Minnesota, I wanted someone to step up and say, "THIS HAS TO STOP! ... RIGHT NOW!" ... But either nobody did, or if someone said that, nobody listened. 
We need a player who can take that kind of leadership role on. And players who get pissed when we perform like we did at Minnesota. Watching these guys during some of the times we were getting absolutely humiliated -- some of them seemed as if they just didn't care. If we don't get that kind of leadership and want-to from the the players themselves, we will continue to get whipped by Purdue and by Nebraska and by Michigan and by Minnesota. 

Ding ding ding. Who on this years squad would do that?! I don’t see a guy who would do that. We have a bunch of guys who might try to lead by example but where is the voice?! Where was the voice the season before when IPFW and ISU were embarrassing us? We have too many players who want to do themselves or just go with the flow. When a player (preferably a group of players) stand up and say enough is enough we’ll take the next step as a program.

I saw a little bit of that from Al in a few games. It’s sad when it stands out rather than the norm. Why wasn’t Juwan getting into his teammates when we were down 17-0 to Michigan, AT HOME?! I’m happy Juwan was a Hoosier. He did things that most didn’t believe he could do. Hoosier players and Hoosier greats are separated by what the TEAM accomplished. Sheehey was a solid role player but will never be confused with a leader. Yogi struggled early but turned it around to become a Hoosier great leading IU to a regular season championship his senior year.

Will Phin take a similar path? Only he can answer that.


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[Joe DeLow 1,278]

I don’t know how some can say that IU played better without Romeo. That’s lunacy

Gotta spin it somehow into a positive


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[RaceToTheTop 24,998]

I, for one, do not think the problem was the  team was down.  I think that the problem may have been that there was a Stonehenge monument on thd court in danger of being squashed by a dwarf.

[Napleshoosier 10,150]

It starts before we ever get a commit in the 20 or 21 classes. If we’re counting on the 20 and 21 classes to find those players were in deep trouble. I’m not around the players so I don’t see what the coaches do. My “leadership training” comes from a completely different background but has shown to be highly effective. (Not me, the form in which it is engrained in the person)

I’ve seen Durham show some fight and a bit of DAWG. I think there is a ton untapped that needs to come out. I believe Green cares but hasn’t always been geared towards lifting his teammates to a higher level. Phinisee absolutely has to take on a leadership role. Look at the teams, just in the Big Ten who are excelling. Winston, Simpson, and Edwards are all leading. We need that from Phin so by his junior and senior years it’s not even a question.

If I’m Archie I’m putting this on those 3 players and adding Davis in too. He has spoken about this but needs to prove it. It’s not enough for Durham to get in Cook Hall to get shots up. He needs to be pulling Green, Anderson, and Franklin (when he arrives) in and setting up competitions. Best out of 100 threes gets dinner from the others. First one to miss a free throw has to wear a shirt that says “player X is better.”

We need competition between Green and Phinisee everyday. We need them to run open gyms with stakes that will have them getting on teammates for missing rotations or dogging it. One player coming in (Romeo this past season) isn’t going to fix it. There needs to be a CULTURE of do your job to the best of your abilities, all the time and hold your teammates accountable. We’re currently not close.


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Say it again brother!


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[Chris007 43,567]

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

It starts before we ever get a commit in the 20 or 21 classes. If we’re counting on the 20 and 21 classes to find those players were in deep trouble. I’m not around the players so I don’t see what the coaches do. My “leadership training” comes from a completely different background but has shown to be highly effective. (Not me, the form in which it is engrained in the person)

I’ve seen Durham show some fight and a bit of DAWG. I think there is a ton untapped that needs to come out. I believe Green cares but hasn’t always been geared towards lifting his teammates to a higher level. Phinisee absolutely has to take on a leadership role. Look at the teams, just in the Big Ten who are excelling. Winston, Simpson, and Edwards are all leading. We need that from Phin so by his junior and senior years it’s not even a question.

If I’m Archie I’m putting this on those 3 players and adding Davis in too. He has spoken about this but needs to prove it. It’s not enough for Durham to get in Cook Hall to get shots up. He needs to be pulling Green, Anderson, and Franklin (when he arrives) in and setting up competitions. Best out of 100 threes gets dinner from the others. First one to miss a free throw has to wear a shirt that says “player X is better.”

We need competition between Green and Phinisee everyday. We need them to run open gyms with stakes that will have them getting on teammates for missing rotations or dogging it. One player coming in (Romeo this past season) isn’t going to fix it. There needs to be a CULTURE of do your job to the best of your abilities, all the time and hold your teammates accountable. We’re currently not close.


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Can you say it louder so the people in the back can hear it? 

[Hoosier Guy 7,518]

12 hours ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

 

Maybe the phrase should be "better than expected." Because they did play better than most thought they would. Romeo sitting out was their invitation and excuse to completely check out on the spot. I don't know if I'm being referenced to as a crybaby or not, but you get the benefit of the doubt.

And NO. Of course they weren't going to play better without him than with him. No one expected that.



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I’m not calling you a crybaby

[RatpigHoosier 1,022]

I wasn't a Celtics or Larry Bird fan back in the 80s, but I have a HUGE appreciation for them now. One of my favorite moments was when the Lakers beat the snot out of the Celts in Game 3 of the 1984 NBA Finals. 
After the game, Bird said Boston played like sissies and added, "We've got some great players on this team, but we don't have the players with the heart sometimes that we need. Today, when you see Magic slappin' high fives and guys going behind their backs and shooting layups on us all day long, it seems like somebody would put a stop to it. Until we get our hearts where they belong, we're in trouble."
Boston won the next game -- and the series. 
When we were getting our butts kicked in Lafayette and at home against Michigan and Nebraska and at Minnesota, I wanted someone to step up and say, "THIS HAS TO STOP! ... RIGHT NOW!" ... But either nobody did, or if someone said that, nobody listened. 
We need a player who can take that kind of leadership role on. And players who get pissed when we perform like we did at Minnesota. Watching these guys during some of the times we were getting absolutely humiliated -- some of them seemed as if they just didn't care. If we don't get that kind of leadership and want-to from the the players themselves, we will continue to get whipped by Purdue and by Nebraska and by Michigan and by Minnesota. 

I will say I saw it in one game ( can’t remember which one but it was in the midst of our doldrums) when I saw some of this from Al. I think I commented on it in a post too. He got ticked off and his demeanor was palpable. It was great to see, but the problem was the other players wouldn’t let it infect them. He was the only one. That is the problem. It seemed like a lot of the time each player, or certain players, were playing within their own personal silos.


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[RatpigHoosier 1,022]

I, for one, do not think the problem was the  team was down.  I think that the problem may have been that there was a Stonehenge monument on thd court in danger of being squashed by a dwarf.

This reference is somewhat obscure but i get it. And it’s......AWESOME!


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[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Say it again brother!


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Can you say it louder so the people in the back can hear it? 

I’m done for now but this **** eats at me!


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[finky 298]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:02 AM, LamarCheeks said:

I will be very interested to see what happens with Forrester, Moore and Anderson. They had 22, 20 and 14 games, respectively, in which they never left the bench. And when they did play, they pretty much looked lost. 

Moore was a Crean recruit, but the other two are Archie's guys. With only 13 scholarship players -- essentially 11 this year because of how limited Race was and how Hunter didn't play at all -- you've absolutely got to get more from your bench. I'm guessing by season's end, our 7-8 main guys were just worn down. 

I guess for those three there are three options: Work your a$$ off to get better, transfer or be happy riding the bench. Wonder what it'll be???

Anderson is 2-3 years away from catching up defensively.  If Archie has a heart, he will help the young man find a slower conference to play in.  Moore is in his second year, he isn't ready for the court...he probably should go.  Forrester has this offseason to be ready, hope he takes advantage of it.   Moore was here last year correct?  He was hurt I think....but....he didn't look like he made any use of his down time last year to learn the game/system.

All Freshman should have some good and bad moments......I just can't remember the good from any of these three (Full disclosure: I tuned out mid February for the most part)