Dinner with an opponent

[Old Friend]

I had the good fortune tonight to sit at a dinner table with a kid who plays for a team Indiana played earlier this season.  Obviously don't want to share who; but you've heard of him and his team.   Anyway, we got into a conversation about basketball, and I asked him how difficult Indiana was to game plan against.   He was cautious with his answer, not knowing at first why I asked; but eventually opened up to tell me difficult because Indiana is so talented at every spot; but simple because their team knew if they took away the first 8-10 seconds of a possession, Indiana would struggle.  And....they did.  And....Indiana lost.    He said film shows Indiana doesn't run much in the way of different sets.  They don't do anything to surprise you, and they're not fundamentally sound.  I asked "so you're telling me they're not a tough team to beat?"  "No sir.  We knew we'd win the game if we just executed our stuff and didn't let them run."

There you go.  Straight from an opponent's mouth.  We're paying a guy $3.1 million to be easy to prepare against and who can't do much but out-talent bad teams and occasionally out-shoot good ones.  Is it too much to ask for Indiana....INDIANA to have a sound basketball guy coaching the team?

[mdn82]

I wonder how many players make a game plan against their opponents. Didn't know they did. On top of that I wonder how many players that follow the game plan that you said and beat IU would say any different. Outside of the player being a part of the game plan doesn't sound like anything different you would hear in a post game news conference. I am guessing from your 2nd paragraph you were looking for a specific answer and you got close enough to the one you were looking for. Had this opponent lost to IU I doubt he would say anything different. "If we would have followed the game plan we would have won."


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[TheWatShot]

We've been easy to gameplan against for 17 years. Time to get a basketball mind back on our sideline. 

[KingPG21]

So the whole out-talenting an opponent thing to beat them is the exact reason I want noting to do with Steve Alford as a head coach. Look at his track record as a coach, the only place he wasn't able to get better talent than what his conference opponents got, Iowa in this case, he didn't meet expectations or overachieve. And then at New Mexico and Missouri State the second they met teams who his teams couldn't out talent they lost. Sorry, not exactly on topic, but the comment about not being able to win unless they have more talent than the opponent stuck out to me, and is the biggest reason I never get the Alford love from some on here

[Hoosier Guy]

Wow that's pathetic. It's what a lot of us have been saying the whole time. Just play fundamentally sound basketball against IU and you will win the game. $3.1M to suck at your job. Boy Tom Crean has it made. Better not be for too much longer though

[pumpfake]

3 hours ago, Hoosier Guy said:

Wow that's pathetic. It's what a lot of us have been saying the whole time. Just play fundamentally sound basketball against IU and you will win the game. $3.1M to suck at your job. Boy Tom Crean has it made. Better not be for too much longer though

Sadly, I completely agree.

What seems to be lost on the dwindling number of CTC proponents is that teaching and playing a fundamentally sound (& disciplined) brand of basketball would improve the success of the team regardless of offensive or defensive philosophy.  It would also make the games so much more enjoyable to watch.

I suspect I know which team the 'opponent' plays for, and I think that is a perfect case where lack of blue chip talent can be largely minimized by good, solid teaching.  Any respected coach at IU will be able to attract quality players.  Couple that with the ability to actually assemble a team of parts and, IMO, you've already improved our situation.  Now, sprinkle in some elite level recruits and we're well on our way to being where we expect to be.

[Old Friend]

10 hours ago, mdn82 said:

I wonder how many players make a game plan against their opponents. Didn't know they did. On top of that I wonder how many players that follow the game plan that you said and beat IU would say any different. Outside of the player being a part of the game plan doesn't sound like anything different you would hear in a post game news conference. I am guessing from your 2nd paragraph you were looking for a specific answer and you got close enough to the one you were looking for. Had this opponent lost to IU I doubt he would say anything different. "If we would have followed the game plan we would have won."


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A swing....and a whiff.  He completely misses the point and takes the wrong direction for the purpose of.......what, exactly?  To defend Crean?  To be critical of me?   Taking a different point than intended only to then argue against it is very "Scout site circa 2010."  I thought we were done with childish BS.   Everyone else seems to get it.  I wonder why you chose this response.   Oh wait....no I don't.    Just block me.  Please, for the love of God and all things holy, just block me.   

[Old Friend]

4 hours ago, Hoosier Guy said:

Wow that's pathetic. It's what a lot of us have been saying the whole time. Just play fundamentally sound basketball against IU and you will win the game. $3.1M to suck at your job. Boy Tom Crean has it made. Better not be for too much longer though

This kid used that exact wording.  "They don't play fundamentally sound basketball."   It was a neat conversation, but interesting you used the same wording he did in the same context.

[mdn82]

A swing....and a whiff.  He completely misses the point and takes the wrong direction for the purpose of.......what, exactly?  To defend Crean?  To be critical of me?   Taking a different point than intended only to then argue against it is pretty lame.   Everyone else seems to get it.  I wonder why you chose this response.   Oh wait....no I don't.    Just block me.  Please, for the love of God and all things holy, just block me.   

 

I thought you wanted to discuss things? You just want people to agree with you constantly? No? I am shocked. God forbid someone question you. Btw I stand by what I said.

 

 

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[Stuhoo]

I had the good fortune tonight to sit at a dinner table with a kid who plays for a team Indiana played earlier this season.  Obviously don't want to share who; but you've heard of him and his team.   Anyway, we got into a conversation about basketball, and I asked him how difficult Indiana was to game plan against.   He was cautious with his answer, not knowing at first why I asked; but eventually opened up to tell me difficult because Indiana is so talented at every spot; but simple because their team knew if they took away the first 8-10 seconds of a possession, Indiana would struggle.  And....they did.  And....Indiana lost.    He said film shows Indiana doesn't run much in the way of different sets.  They don't do anything to surprise you, and they're not fundamentally sound.  I asked "so you're telling me they're not a tough team to beat?"  "No sir.  We knew we'd win the game if we just executed our stuff and didn't let them run."

There you go.  Straight from an opponent's mouth.  We're paying a guy $3.1 million to be easy to prepare against and who can't do much but out-talent bad teams and occasionally out-shoot good ones.  Is it too much to ask for Indiana....INDIANA to have a sound basketball guy coaching the team?

While I am NOT a fan of our coaching staff's performance, "Defend really well for the first eight to ten seconds of the possession" is not really a 'game plan' against us or any team.
If you had heard that was CTC's defensive strategy I am guessing you would have cited it as evidence of our lack of having a defensive plan, maybe?
Just sayin.

[Hoosier Guy]

50 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

This kid used that exact wording.  "They don't play fundamentally sound basketball."   It was a neat conversation, but interesting you used the same wording he did in the same context.

I guess just a coincidence. But I'm like this with all my teams. Just play fundamentally sound and you will win games

[Hoosier Guy]

6 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

While I am NOT a fan of our coaching staff's performance, "Defend really well for the first eight to ten seconds of the possession" is not really a 'game plan' against us or any team.
If you had heard that was CTC's defensive strategy I am guessing you would have cited it as evidence of our lack of having a defensive plan, maybe?
Just sayin.

 

I think what he means is that if you make IU slow it down where they're taking at least 10 seconds off the shot clock, you have IU right where you want them. If the Hoosiers can't run, their offense is usually toast. IU doesn't have the fundamentals to run offense in the half court

[JSHoosier]

8 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

While I am NOT a fan of our coaching staff's performance, "Defend really well for the first eight to ten seconds of the possession" is not really a 'game plan' against us or any team.
If you had heard that was CTC's defensive strategy I am guessing you would have cited it as evidence of our lack of having a defensive plan, maybe?
Just sayin.

 

8-10 seconds of defense would be about 4-5 more seconds than we're seeing now.

[Old Friend]

30 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

While I am NOT a fan of our coaching staff's performance, "Defend really well for the first eight to ten seconds of the possession" is not really a 'game plan' against us or any team.
If you had heard that was CTC's defensive strategy I am guessing you would have cited it as evidence of our lack of having a defensive plan, maybe?
Just sayin.

 

I was with the guy for an hour or more.   Expand a little....this is the Cliff's Notes version.  I know one guy doesn't get it.  You're smarter than that.   If you want the verbatim, PM me and I'll do what I can.  Let's just say this kid thought Indiana was a pretty simple team to game plan for and to beat.  He was worried about IU's talent, but had no worries at all about what they would do or how they would play.   That's the point....not some snapshot of what I posted.  

[mdn82]

I was with the guy for an hour or more.   Expand a little....this is the Cliff's Notes version.  I know one guy doesn't get it.  You're smarter than that.   If you want the verbatim, PM me and I'll do what I can.  Let's just say this kid thought Indiana was a pretty simple team to game plan for and to beat.  He was worried about IU's talent, but had no worries at all about what they would do or how they would play.   That's the point....not some snapshot of what I posted.  

You are right. You don't get what a discussion is on a fan site like this. Sorry it took you so long. You have yet to answer anything I brought up. It really isn't all that hard. Maybe once you are done getting your feelings hurt you can get back to the discussion you started. If you are that fragile to discuss what you wrote about I apologize. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. You have posted twice now referencing what I don't get. What don't I get? What in my post is off base? Where was I attacking you? Let's discuss. Please. I implore you start discussing (what you claim to always want) and leave the pissing and whining out of your posts when I respond to you. I honestly don't think you have it in you.


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[8bucks]

Personally I thought it was interesting post with some good insight. I doubt that the 8-10 seconds of D was the entire game plan but was one of those key points to focus on. Have you ever seen our teams transition D after we just hit a shot? So many times we immediately give up a quick shot. If you can get your team convinced that if the guard like crazy for 8-10 seconds then they likely don't let us play fast and minimize the quick easy baskets.

I also have to admit when we consider our players we do place a premium on the athlete vs the fundamentally sound kid.

So maybe hearing it from an opponent would also be music Timmy ears and I might tend to be a little biased towards my thinking. Still though, it was interesting info from Old Friend and it definitely seems your first response to him mdn led to his response.

[mdn82]

Personally I thought it was interesting post with some good insight. I doubt that the 8-10 seconds of D was the entire game plan but was one of those key points to focus on. Have you ever seen our teams transition D after we just hit a shot? So many times we immediately give up a quick shot. If you can get your team convinced that if the guard like crazy for 8-10 seconds then they likely don't let us play fast and minimize the quick easy baskets.

I also have to admit when we consider our players we do place a premium on the athlete vs the fundamentally sound kid.

So maybe hearing it from an opponent would also be music Timmy ears and I might tend to be a little biased towards my thinking. Still though, it was interesting info from Old Friend and it definitely seems your first response to him mdn led to his response.

Fair enough. Wasn't meant to. Every time I post that dude it's that is what I get. I actually agree with him on most. He just doesn't like that I don't agree with everything he says. Which is fine. I would hope there is discussion as opposed to "block me". That is what this board is about.


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[theriverpilot]

I think I might get where mdn was getting at. Although the kid specifically told Old Friend "defend for the first 8-10 seconds..." and IU is not fundamentally sound, it could be that he was simply parroting that information and not an actual game plan. Or just a high level game plan the player would share with a non team affiliated person. After all, that's our main complaint on this board and several others. Plus, it's an easy observation of the current IU era to regurgitate.

Regardless, what the player said is true but something we already knew.


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[OliviaPope40]

Before I opened up the thread I thought it was going to be a question of if could have dinner with an opponent who would it be followed by a discussion but now that I have opened it and read it I like the story and don't find it surprising that we are not that hard to prepare for.

[Ryno6284]

5 hours ago, mdn82 said:

Fair enough. Wasn't meant to. Every time I post that dude it's that is what I get. I actually agree with him on most. He just doesn't like that I don't agree with everything he says. Which is fine. I would hope there is discussion as opposed to "block me". That is what this board is about.


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I don't think it's that you might disagree with him on some things, but it's the way you disagree with him when he makes a post.  It does seem that you are waiting to pounce on his posts sometimes. 

No, players don't gameplan, but the coach does, and the players sit in on those film sessions when the coach tells them how they are going to defend or attack an opponent.  

I don't know if you have an axe to grind with Old Friend, but as a middleman, it sure seems that way.