IUBB vs Army - Sunday, 11.12.23 @ 7:00 on BTN

[realTomCrean 1,470]

IU will beat UCONN and we all (including myself) can eat bricks 

[reconmkd 4,195]

5 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

Does anyone know anything about Newton? Timeline, plans to play this year, strengths? 

My undeducated guess would be that he ends up a redshirt. He is still rehabing and just started on some basics according to some news I saw last week. I don't think he would have time to get into game shape, even if they started full basketball activities today, until after the new year. He still looks to be in great shape, but his conditioning would have taken a huge hit not being able to do much cardio work.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,315]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

 

This is as good a place as any to state your case for Anthony Leal LCS, but no.

There are lots of guys that 'know basketball' that simply aren't nearly talented enough to be a positive on the court. Anthony Leal is by all accounts a great young man and in the same way players like Johnny Jager, Zach McRoberts, Jeff Howard, and Kory Barnett were, an asset to the team. 

But for a guard he is

• very slow laterally,
• cannot really shoot the ball, and
• has no handle.

He just isn't the guy you're projecting him to be. To say that Woody is "stuck in 2005" by not playing Leal? More like Woody would be stuck in 1955 if he plays Leal. Playing him for a few minutes now and then to send a message? Sure. But using him as a rotation player is a clear signal to the team that we are waving the white flag of surrender.

 

And that's your opinion. You don't have to be hyper athletic to play basketball. That's just a fact. Some hustle and smarts can get guys a long way. I feel Leal would actually help. You don't. That's cool. I'd rather see Leal get minutes rather than Gunn looking like he's never played basketball before.

[JSHoosier 19,645]

57 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yeah he definitely talks like it’s not a big deal taking 3s.  He also said last night the he didn’t think IU played that bad 

I expect some growing pains with so many new players but this is pretty rough by that standard.  He's going to have to make adjustments, hopefully soon.  We had issues giving up offensive boards and hitting FTs under him (we did hit them vs Army though), that needs to be corrected because they will cost you games.

[Hardwood83 4,546]

29 minutes ago, HinnyHoosier said:

New week has started. On to the next one. 

But those boys had better practice like their jocks are in flames because it sounds like some standards are not being met at a very basic level. I'm probably in the minority being completely ok with Xavier calling that out in the post game. They're all big boys and need to understand it's not personal; it's a message and a challenge. However, he needs to reiterate the challenge to his teammates in the locker room and not leave it hanging in the media. 

I support it in principle. My issue was it didn't seem like accountability, it was just finger pointing. Having just watched the game, Ware & Reneau being 'soft' was about 4th or 5th on the list of issues. Scoring aside, XJ sucked in almost every facet of the game and especially defense. So it seems very self-serving to call out other guys when he failed as much or more. Another indictment of him, a talented 6th year PG, is I trust the skinny freshman with the ball more than him. I'm concerned XJ doesn't have the temperment to be a team leader and we're seeing the results of that on the floor.  

[Hardwood83 4,546]

4 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

And that's your opinion. You don't have to be hyper athletic to play basketball. That's just a fact. Some hustle and smarts can get guys a long way. I feel Leal would actually help. You don't. That's cool. I'd rather see Leal get minutes rather than Gunn looking like he's never played basketball before.

A week ago I wouldn't have agreed with this, but now? Geez. I'd hate to throw in the towel the first week of his Soph season, but Gunn doesn't appear ready to play at all. Not saying Leal is the answer, but it's hard to even envision Gunn contributing in a competitive game.

[Stuhoo 76,387]

8 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

And that's your opinion. You don't have to be hyper athletic to play basketball. That's just a fact. Some hustle and smarts can get guys a long way. I feel Leal would actually help. You don't. That's cool. I'd rather see Leal get minutes rather than Gunn looking like he's never played basketball before.

The bolded is very different from "Leal should start". Absent some real signs of improvement? This is something that may be worth considering.

[Stuhoo 76,387]

50 minutes ago, HinnyHoosier said:

New week has started. On to the next one. 

But those boys had better practice like their jocks are in flames because it sounds like some standards are not being met at a very basic level. I'm probably in the minority being completely ok with Xavier calling that out in the post game. They're all big boys and need to understand it's not personal; it's a message and a challenge. However, he needs to reiterate the challenge to his teammates in the locker room and not leave it hanging in the media. 

I'm completely good with Xavier calling them out: 

1. X is one of two players that in my mind have played with real intensity for both of the first two games (the other is Cupps).
2. He stated that it wasn't just the young guys that have to step up, it is him and Gallo that have to do better in leading and demanding that they increase intensity in practice and preparation.
3. He wasn't emotional when he said these things; he was controlled and very matter of fact.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,315]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

The bolded is very different from "Leal should start". Absent some real signs of improvement? This is something that may be worth considering.

I just think the shakeup in the starting lineup is needed. Less dudes who need the ball in their hands to make an impact, a willing passer, and gives the bench scoring in Mgbako. Mgbako is just a 4. Plain and simple. He reminds me a bit of Watford. Not an explosive athlete but knows how to score. I think he just needs to be in the right spot. And playing the 4 next to Ware, Sparks or Reneau would be the absolute best for him. I am a Leal fan, but there isn't exactly another guy to start IMO. I don't want to start Cupps. His energy off the bench is way too needed. Leal is the only other guard with Newton being(and Rayford I guess) being injured. Does Leal have to play 30? No. But he can play 15-20 as a starter and gives more than enough time for Cupps, who is going to have to play A LOT this year. And I think Galloway is a much better 3 than 2.

[Hoosierfan2017 20,032]

We went 23-12 last year and lost a lot. I don’t think we added enough during the offseason to make up for the departures, so I am expecting this season to be a rocky one. 

[8bucks 6,193]

27 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I just think the shakeup in the starting lineup is needed. Less dudes who need the ball in their hands to make an impact, a willing passer, and gives the bench scoring in Mgbako. Mgbako is just a 4. Plain and simple. He reminds me a bit of Watford. Not an explosive athlete but knows how to score. I think he just needs to be in the right spot. And playing the 4 next to Ware, Sparks or Reneau would be the absolute best for him. I am a Leal fan, but there isn't exactly another guy to start IMO. I don't want to start Cupps. His energy off the bench is way too needed. Leal is the only other guard with Newton being(and Rayford I guess) being injured. Does Leal have to play 30? No. But he can play 15-20 as a starter and gives more than enough time for Cupps, who is going to have to play A LOT this year. And I think Galloway is a much better 3 than 2.

What about Leal makes you think he could be productive if given more time?  

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,315]

1 minute ago, 8bucks said:

What about Leal makes you think he could be productive if given more time?  

High IQ, ball doesn't stick in his hands, talks on D, hustles. I think he can shoot but we've never actually gotten to see him get in any sort of rhythm with playing time.

[Stuhoo 76,387]

44 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

High IQ, ball doesn't stick in his hands, talks on D, hustles. I think he can shoot but we've never actually gotten to see him get in any sort of rhythm with playing time.

When we had five suspended against Northwestern a year and a half ago, Leal played 34 minutes.

1-5 shooting, 1-4 from three. Only one turnover.

[SamIam 644]

Well, here we are. Back with my thoughts after watching/rewatching some of it. Feel free to let me know what you think. 

Overall, I'm worried. I knew this team had serious issues with roster construction. I still expected them to be elite defensively. The changes made to the defensive system are actively harming the team. This is largely a system issue.  All offensive systems are designed to flex a defense, force rotation, and eventually to expose the defense when it fails to bend to the offense. IU's defense is bending out of position and scrambling to catch up off of no action. Over helping on drives/screens/normal offensive action is KILLING us. No reason for another defender to come halfheartedly hedge when the on-ball defender is over the screen, and with how many 3's we've given up, it would be better to stay with our man on the perimeter and trust that we have a 7 foot monster at the rim. Right now, we give up a million open looks and if we do that against a real team we will get run out of the gym. There is no reason to do this the vast majority of the time and it needs to be fixed. 

The obvious roster construction issues with this team are killing us. I like Woodson, but the worst thing about him is how stubborn he is. Like when he is asked about shooting more threes and his answer is "we are going to post the ball." Reneau cannot play the 4. Woody has to learn that or we are capped offensively and defensively. He seems to want to get the best 5 individual players out on the court, but he needs to get the best team out on the court. MR is certainly one of the best 5 players, but our best team does not have him at the 4. Let MR and Ware play some minutes together each game, but only with the three guard lineup. Beyond that, they need to stagger minutes at the 5. Along those lines, it's clear that Mgbako is a 4 not a 3. People are calling him lazy, and he has certainly gotten lost a couple of times on D, but one of the other things I see is him lagging off for fear that he will be beat on the drive. He's faster than 4s and he's big enough to play it. Let him run next to Ware I guarantee the offense is immediately better. The sooner Woodson realizes this, the better. We need MM on the court for this team to have basically any offensive upside. MR would also be better if he got to play in a lineup with ANY spacing. Dude is fighting doubles all the time. 

Like I said after last game, Banks needs to play. Sure, he makes some mistakes, but he seems to be penalized more than a lot of the other guys who do (Gunn, Reneau). He's long, fast, pursues rebounds relentlessly, and is making perimeter shots this year. He needs to be in at the 3 for some stretches, preferably alongside Mgbako. If we want to be good this season the lineup that provides the most upside is X Gallo Banks Mgbako and Ware. 

Playing without two bigs would also help us get out and run. We are currently playing at a sub-300 tempo right now.  For a team that has no discernible offensive sets, this is really inexplicable. They need to push the pace. I just don't think the team can handle having Reneau's lack of speed on the floor with Ware.  

Ware played well but I am worried about how easily he got pushed around. Needs to get low. Reneau played poorly, he looked overwhelmed. We should expect that because he's playing with no spacing. His chicken wing remains obvious and will cost us at some point. X played well. He is one of the guys who is hurt most by the current roster construction. He is a great downhill guard, if we were able to surround him with a pick and pop big and a couple shooters he would be so much better. Right now he gets downhill only to run into our own guys. I think he is often misunderstood on the court, I love that he plays with emotion, but I think his body language/ calling teammates out only works if you have the respect of the team like TJD did. I really hope thats the case. 

Lastly, it's time to see Leal. Leal has his limitations. But Gunn is bad. His mechanics are all out of wack. When you watch him warm up, he's shooting normally. But the second he gets in the game, he gets too excited and jumps to the moon. When he is in the game the ball stops on him, and all movement with it. One of the issues with Woodson is that he doesn't understand that some players play based on rhythm. Geronimo was like this, he played well when he was allowed to play through mistakes and he got into the flow, and he was a non-factor late in the season when he knew one mistake would get him pulled. I could see Gunn being like this. But right now we are struggling to put away sub-300 Kenpom teams. These should be the confidence building games. We need to be blowing these teams out before we can worry about getting young guys confidence minutes.  Leal helps us win now more than Gunn because he moves the ball in the offense better than anyone on the team, and there is simply no way Gunn is a better shooter than him right now.

It quite literally only gets harder from here. Army is the only sub-300 Kenpom team on the schedule. This was supposed to be the tune-up game, and they took us to the wire in our own gym. Army lost by 13 to Stonehill. Stonehill lost by 40(!!!) to UConn. Two games in a row, Woodson has had to roll with the three guard lineup just to win the game. It's hard for this team to learn, for the bench to round into form if we are forced to play that lineup just to save us from an L. 

[coonhounds 8,696]

I am already at the point where whenever an opponent shoots a three I get a sick feeling and usually for good reason. This has happened at different times since Archie came here. We can't let teams get hot in the first 5 minutes of the game imo. We play soft on the perimeter and only try to challenge after the other team makes a few. By then it is to late and they are canning every shot they throw up. I hate it and watching it makes me sick. Doesn't help when we shoot we're lucky to catch iron

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Golfman25 4,831]

I came here looking for the "fire Mike Woodson" thread.  A bunch of Debbie Downers.  Granted, last nights game sucked.  Team was flat.  But is there a worse game time than Sunday night?  I wasn't even 100% for watching it.  :) 

Lots of new faces.  Only 2 weeks in.  Sure there is practice, but practice isn't games.  Games are just different -- faster, every play means something, etc.  So you're going to have growing pains.  Unfortunately, UCONN comes up really fast, so they better get it righted quickly.  Let's see how they bounce back against Wright State.  

[SamIam 644]

1 minute ago, Ngw7183 said:

Disagree on Leal big time. Disagree on defensive scheme, most is effort and players in wrong role. CJ, not a fan either but does he play more relaxed with X, Trey, MM and Ware for an example? I bet he would. 

but…. Seems I am not only one and read it plenty here, other boards and Twitter. The issues really is Malik. Hard to see through the stats but he can’t play the 4 with Ware. You and I both spoke to all the positives it would bring. Staff will see it, I think at least haha 

I get your point on Leal. But I'm not sure about the "coaching staff doesn't see it" argument. I don't think Hulls Calbert, etc. would be playing this offense at all if up to them, we play it because of Woodson, so I'm not sure if they wanted to get Leal in the game Woodson would listen. Like I said, he's stubborn. I agree Leal hasn't shown us much but one thing he is absolutely better than Gunn at is playing in the flow of the offense and he's a better shooter. On a team with no movement and no spacing I think it might be time to play someone who will play his tail off and help in those two areas, at least until we can reliably beat lesser competition. 

On defensive scheme,  I agree. I'm not the biggest fan of it, but theres no doubt it can work in CBB. The issue is it only works if you have an extremely long and athletic lineup. I think Woodson assumed thats what he had, but it's clear that MR/MM aren't fast enough so hoping to see changes. Just need to get faster in general, most of the O-boards we are giving up are due to long rebounds where the opposing team's guards are just quicker to the ball. Teams will keep shooting as long as we keep leaving 3 pt shooters wide open on tape so we got to adjust to a lineup that can get those boards. 

[Unexpectedflash 966]

It's honestly so weird to me that Woody doesn't seem to care about the 3 ball really much. He's an NBA guy. One of the reasons his Knicks teams were so good was because of the amount of threes they took and made. His opening press conference he talked a big game about the four out one in offense and the importance of the three ball but we have honestly not seen much of that since he has been here. Maybe it's the big ten style of play or whatever but you put yourself at such a disadvantage not taking 3s. We unfortunately don't have Trayce to mask a bad offensive scheme anymore. I was hopeful getting a stretch big like Ke'lel meant a more open three point centric offense but it looks the same as last year with worse players. I saw somewhere we were in the 300s in pace which does not fit this team much either. 

[realTomCrean 1,470]

Galloway, leading B1G 3P% last year, 0 3's put up last night. Why! How!

[Hoosierfan2017 20,032]

8 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

Galloway, leading B1G 3P% last year, 0 3's put up last night. Why! How!

Not really that uncommon. He’s a very low volume shooter. He took 2 a game on average last season and had 8 games where he took 0.