IUBB vs Rutger aka/Ruger - Tuesday, 2/7/23 @ 6:30 on BTN

[Artie86 1,855]

52 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

I wish they would limit Race to spot duty in oder to give him more time to heal. 

He's clearly not himself, therefore shouldn't be given more than 8 mpg or so.

Reneau is ready.

All do respect. I too love the Reneau and his steady improvements and increased minutes, but to say he is READY is a little aggressive. I wouldn't say he has arrived yet. I don't think you mean that either. lol

[Hardwood83 4,725]

If Race would stay out of TJD's way and NOT shoot 3's he would be fine. At this point he isn't someone IU needs to rely on, so just 'do no harm.' He doesn't look 100%, so maybe over the next couple weeks he'll round back into form? 

[str8baller 5,017]

27 minutes ago, Hardwood83 said:

If Race would stay out of TJD's way and NOT shoot 3's he would be fine. At this point he isn't someone IU needs to rely on, so just 'do no harm.' He doesn't look 100%, so maybe over the next couple weeks he'll round back into form? 

Those would be my two biggest complaints with Race. He was/has been too quick to shoot 3’s when he isn’t shooting well and he was posting up in the lane at the same time TJD was last night—ironically both of those led to 4 points we needed.   

[IUCrazy2 2,330]

1 hour ago, realTomCrean said:

Hotter take: Rutger loses their coach to Notre Dame

I think that is honestly a step down now.

[AKHoosier 6,739]

18 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think that is honestly a step down now.

Plus, Pikiell has two 5 stars coming in the next 2 classes.

Rutgers is probably more willing to play the game than ND is. He's built something worth sticking around for at RU.

[HoosierHoopster 6,761]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

My comments had nothing to do with Race. But no, it was the defensive end as to why Race plays more mins. 

Kopp? Stewart? Who was starting over them? They started because they were our best options to go with TJD in the starting lineup. Hell.. couple of games TG still vastly outplayed Kopp in mins. 

Malik really struggles defensively. He struggles a lot when asked to guard a 6'7 SR guard in McConnell. That is NOT a good matchup for Malik. And.. maybe even more than he would struggle to guard McConnell, he would really struggle with a couple of others that RU ran out there when there were switches. 

I think twice in the second half Malik sunk and gave up open 3s in transition (RU missed)... in the first half he completely over helped and gave an open 3, when their backup FR big was rolling to the basket as TJD was guarding him. That's really bad defense. Until the staff trusts Malik on the defensive end, he is going to be taken out in those situations and it isn't negligence on Woodson and staffs behalf when they do so. 

Yeah we disagree. It’s not coincidence that in Race’s heavy minutes games with Malik and/or JG’s reduced min games since Race’s return we’ve either almost lost, or lost. Race’s mobility is clearly lacking, so much so that Vitale commented on it, but we can just disgree

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

1 minute ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Yeah we disagree. It’s not coincidence that in Race’s heavy minutes games with Malik and/or JG’s reduced min games since Race’s return we’ve either almost lost, or lost. Race’s mobility is clearly lacking, so much so that Vitale commented on it, but we can just disgree

We are 5-1 since Race's return. 

define heavy mins? 

I mean, he's played 20+ mins a piece the last two games and we have a win over the #1 team in the country and another Top 25 win to show for it. 

What is NOT coincidence is how awful our defense was the first 2.5 games after Race was hurt. 

[Chips&Dipo 1,464]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We are 5-1 since Race's return. 

define heavy mins? 

I mean, he's played 20+ mins a piece the last two games and we have a win over the #1 team in the country and another Top 25 win to show for it. 

What is NOT coincidence is how awful our defense was the first 2.5 games after Race was hurt. 

This is all too advanced for me and defense is hard to quantify, but here are some stats.

In B1G play, Race's Defensive Win Share is .2 and Malik's is .1. Race's Offensive Win Share is .3 and Malik's is .6.

Going to the past two games. Against Purdue, they had equal defensive ratings (115) with Malik having a much higher offensive rating (213 compared to 153) on similar playing times (22 for Race and 20 for Malik). Last night Race actually had better ratings (75 O and 85 D) than Malik (65 O and 88 D) but Race played 26 minutes v Malik's 14, though as others have said I think the time differential is largely due to Race being better at guarding quicker forwards. I'd also add that our largest lead and when I think the offense looked its best was in the first half when Malik went in for Race. 

Also to your first point, I don't think our recent success has much to do with an injured Race coming back. Much more likely that its attributable to TJD continuing to elevate his game and the continued progression of perimeter play from Trey, Jalen (minus a couple of games), and Miller.  

Malik certainly has holes in his game which is the reason why Woody is reluctant in giving him more minutes (though I think 20 minutes is probably what everyone is asking for, like in the Purdue game) and Race is a super senior leader and that is something that can't be quantified, but I don't see his play as a reason for our recent success. Maybe the best course of action is to keep Race in the starting line up and distributing the minutes a bit more evenly between them. What I worry about is Race's offensive performance hindering our ability to score for long periods of time, which you can't do during March.

[Chris007 43,556]

25 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We are 5-1 since Race's return. 

define heavy mins? 

I mean, he's played 20+ mins a piece the last two games and we have a win over the #1 team in the country and another Top 25 win to show for it. 

What is NOT coincidence is how awful our defense was the first 2.5 games after Race was hurt. 

I think we beat Iowa and NW with Race, probably not Penn St since we gave up like 36 threes

[Chris007 43,556]

2 minutes ago, Chips&Dipo said:

This is all too advanced for me and defense is hard to quantify, but here are some stats.

In B1G play, Race's Defensive Win Share is .2 and Malik's is .1. Race's Offensive Win Share is .3 and Malik's is .6.

Going to the past two games. Against Purdue, they had equal defensive ratings (115) with Malik having a much higher offensive rating (213 compared to 153) on similar playing times (22 for Race and 20 for Malik). Last night Race actually had better ratings (75 O and 85 D) than Malik (65 O and 88 D) but Race played 26 minutes v Malik's 14, though as others have said I think the time differential is largely due to Race being better at guarding quicker forwards. I'd also add that our largest lead and when I think the offense looked its best was in the first half when Malik went in for Race. 

Also to your first point, I don't think our recent success has much to do with an injured Race coming back. Much more likely that its attributable to TJD continuing to elevate his game and the continued progression of perimeter play from Trey, Jalen (minus a couple of games), and Miller.  

Malik certainly has holes in his game which is the reason why Woody is reluctant in giving him more minutes (though I think 20 minutes is probably what everyone is asking for, like in the Purdue game) and Race is a super senior leader and that is something that can't be quantified, but I don't see his play as a reason for our recent success. Maybe the best course of action is to keep Race in the starting line up and distributing the minutes a bit more evenly between them. What I worry about is Race's offensive performance hindering our ability to score for long periods of time, which you can't do during March.

But maybe TJD plays better with Race and has elevated his game since Race came back. We all have to remember that a coach is going to trust a 6 year 24 year old college guy over a 1 year 19 year old when the game is on the line. IMO

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

14 minutes ago, Chips&Dipo said:

This is all too advanced for me and defense is hard to quantify, but here are some stats.

In B1G play, Race's Defensive Win Share is .2 and Malik's is .1. Race's Offensive Win Share is .3 and Malik's is .6.

Going to the past two games. Against Purdue, they had equal defensive ratings (115) with Malik having a much higher offensive rating (213 compared to 153) on similar playing times (22 for Race and 20 for Malik). Last night Race actually had better ratings (75 O and 85 D) than Malik (65 O and 88 D) but Race played 26 minutes v Malik's 14, though as others have said I think the time differential is largely due to Race being better at guarding quicker forwards. I'd also add that our largest lead and when I think the offense looked its best was in the first half when Malik went in for Race. 

Also to your first point, I don't think our recent success has much to do with an injured Race coming back. Much more likely that its attributable to TJD continuing to elevate his game and the continued progression of perimeter play from Trey, Jalen (minus a couple of games), and Miller.  

Malik certainly has holes in his game which is the reason why Woody is reluctant in giving him more minutes (though I think 20 minutes is probably what everyone is asking for, like in the Purdue game) and Race is a super senior leader and that is something that can't be quantified, but I don't see his play as a reason for our recent success. Maybe the best course of action is to keep Race in the starting line up and distributing the minutes a bit more evenly between them. What I worry about is Race's offensive performance hindering our ability to score for long periods of time, which you can't do during March.

It's really as simple as Woodson knows about 100000000x more about his team than me. So, then when I see Malik not having anyone he can guard vs. RU for long stretches..... it's pretty obvious why he didn't play more last night. There isn't much more to say. 

He had a good matchup vs. Purdue. Gillis+Furst. Played 20 mins. 

He didn't vs. Minnesota, Maryland, Rutgers. Played not 20 mins. 

Are we just forgetting the absolute atrocious stretch Malik went through during December and early Jan? He was absolutely unplayable then. 

Also.. please understand the context of me saying "we are 5-1 since Race's return". 

[HoosierHoopster 6,761]

46 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We are 5-1 since Race's return. 

define heavy mins? 

I mean, he's played 20+ mins a piece the last two games and we have a win over the #1 team in the country and another Top 25 win to show for it. 

What is NOT coincidence is how awful our defense was the first 2.5 games after Race was hurt. 

Come on now, are you deliberately ignoring half of my post? " heavy minutes games with Malik and/or JG’s reduced min games". And so why do you go out of your way to talk about 2.5 games after race was hurt, and ignore the next 3 when we went on the strongest run we've had in a decade and played the best we've played all season, without Race? Come on man.

So in those that you just ignore, 

Wisconsin, JG 29 min, 5-10 for 12 with 11 boards, 1 block, 1 TO, 1 foul. Malik, in 14 min, 3-7 for 6, 3 boards, 3 fouls. We won by 18.

 @ Illinois, JG, in 30 min, 6-8 for 13 pts, 8 boards, 3 fouls, 4 TOs. Malik in 14 min, 2-4 for 5 pts, 6 boards, 4 fouls. A strong game all around and particularly with them. We won, at Ill where we almost never do, by 15.

  v MSU Malik played 21, fouled out with 6, 5 boards, 1 TO, and JG fouled out after 5 pts, a block and 1 TO in 13 min. A banger's game -- we still won by 13 -- understandable to give Race run in the next (@ Minn) following the fouling, but then we go to Minn

@ Minn. Almost lost, Race 23 min, Malik 12, JG 6. Race was bad.1-4, 4 boards, a TO, in 23 min, defense was not there, mobility limited.

v OSU, Malik, 23 minutes (not limited), 6-10 for 15 pts, 8 boards, 3 assists, a steal, 1 TO, 4 fouls. His D was just fine. Race played 21 min, 1-6 for 6 pts, 4 boards, 3 fouls. One of these things is not like the other. 

@MD -- Malik 13 min 2-3 for 6 pts 1 but fouled out, so not fair for me to complain here, and no JG. Race, in 28 min, scored 11 with 4 boards, 3 TO's, ok offensively, but again not mobile defensively and we lost by 11, in a game where he had the minutes.

Then we get the PU game -- Malik, in 20 min (not limited), 3-3 for 8 pts, 4 boards, an assist and steal, 2 fouls, 0 TO's. Race in 22 min, 1-2 for 6 pts (4-4 from stripe), 4 boards, 4 fouls -- he was having trouble defensively, he threw the ball out of bounds, he was struggling. But played smart ball when he was put back in late in the second with that steal and inbounds play.

So then Rutgers, Malik limited to 14 min, 2-4 for 5 pts, 5 boards, 1 assist, despite 0 fouls, though 3 TOs. JG got in for about 1 min. Race in 26 min, 1-6, 3 boards, 2 TO's, 2 fouls. We eek out the W at home against Rutgers, scoring only 66, second half was iffy.

It's clear to me and I think most that Race is not 100% and that, since at least the Wisconsin game, we are a better team when Malik and/or JG are getting good minutes. I'm not saying don't play Race or that he isn't a key part of the team, he is, but no, he shouldn't be playing those kind of dominant starter minutes. You don't agree, ok.

 

 

[HoosierHoopster 6,761]

13 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

But maybe TJD plays better with Race and has elevated his game since Race came back. We all have to remember that a coach is going to trust a 6 year 24 year old college guy over a 1 year 19 year old when the game is on the line. IMO

In those games beginning with Wisc, TJD played better and we won much more convincingly including road games with JG and/or Malik getting good run with TJD. The spacing is better, and the rebounding/D was better. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

13 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Come on now, are you deliberately ignoring half of my post? " heavy minutes games with Malik and/or JG’s reduced min games". And so why do you go out of your way to talk about 2.5 games after race was hurt, and ignore the next 3 when we went on the strongest run we've had in a decade and played the best we've played all season, without Race? Come on man.

So in those that you just ignore, 

Wisconsin, JG 29 min, 5-10 for 12 with 11 boards, 1 block, 1 TO, 1 foul. Malik, in 14 min, 3-7 for 6, 3 boards, 3 fouls. We won by 18.

 @ Illinois, JG, in 30 min, 6-8 for 13 pts, 8 boards, 3 fouls, 4 TOs. Malik in 14 min, 2-4 for 5 pts, 6 boards, 4 fouls. A strong game all around and particularly with them. We won, at Ill where we almost never do, by 15.

  v MSU Malik played 21, fouled out with 6, 5 boards, 1 TO, and JG fouled out after 5 pts, a block and 1 TO in 13 min. A banger's game, understandable to give Race run in the next (@ Minn) following the fouling, but then we go to Minn

@ Minn. Almost lost, Race 23 min, Malik 12, JG 6. Race was bad.1-4, 4 boards, a TO, in 23 min, defense was not there, mobility limited.

v OSU, Malik, 23 minutes (not limited), 6-10 for 15 pts, 8 boards, 3 assists, a steal, 1 TO, 4 fouls. His D was just fine. Race played 21 min, 1-6 for 6 pts, 4 boards, 3 fouls. One of these things is not like the other. 

@MD -- Malik 13 min 2-3 for 6 pts 1 but fouled out, so not fair for me to complain here, and no JG. Race, in 28 min, scored 11 with 4 boards, 3 TO's, ok offensively, but again not mobile defensively and we lost by 11, in a game where he had the minutes.

Then we get the PU game -- Malik, in 20 min (not limited), 3-3 for 8 pts, 4 boards, an assist and steal, 2 fouls, 0 TO's. Race in 22 min, 1-2 for 6 pts (4-4 from stripe), 4 boards, 4 fouls -- he was having trouble defensively, he threw the ball out of bounds, he was struggling. But played smart ball when he was put back in late in the second with that steal and inbounds play.

So then Rutgers, Malik limited to 14 min, 2-4 for 5 pts, 5 boards, 1 assist, despite 0 fouls, though 3 TOs. JG got in for about 1 min. Race in 26 min, 1-6, 3 boards, 2 TO's, 2 fouls. We eek out the W at home against Rutgers, scoring only 66, second half was iffy.

It's clear to me and I think most that Race is not 100% and that, since at least the Wisconsin game, we are a better team when Malik and/or JG are getting good minutes. I'm not saying don't play Race or that he isn't a key part of the team, he is, but no, he shouldn't be playing those kind of dominant starter minutes. You don't agree, ok.

 

 

Almost lost? You mean we won. Ignoring half your post? I've ignored nothing. 

This whole thing is absolutely bonkers... we win 7 of 8 but somehow Woodson needs help on who to have on the court? He doesn't Hoopster. He doesn't. 

"dominant starter mins" 

He has played 24mpg since returning. By far the least out of any of our starters, by FAR. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,761]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

Almost lost? You mean we won. Ignoring half your post? I've ignored nothing. 

This whole thing is absolutely bonkers... we win 7 of 8 but somehow Woodson needs help on who to have on the court? He doesn't Hoopster. He doesn't. 

"dominant starter mins" 

He has played 24mpg since returning. By far the least out of any of our starters, by FAR. 

I think you're just arguing with me now for the sake of arguing. The point is not his minutes in comparison to the other starters, it's that we play stronger and win with Malik and / or JG playing good minutes up front. Yeah, you keep ignoring what I post. Over and out man.

[Home Jersey 6,532]

... I agree with both of you, to a degree. 

Race is an important part of the team, don't think anyone is disputing that. 

The team's ceiling, IMO, seems higher when Geronimo/Reneau play big minutes (~18-24) 

That doesn't mean Race shouldn't be playing at all or getting the minutes he is right now, at this moment in time. 

But, if we're commenting as fans after watching these past few games, I think it's fair to speculate about the best lineup that gives us a chance to win in March. Reneau seems to be getting a better grip on his foul trouble (still needs his Coach obviously). Geronimo had some solid performances before his injury, if he can find some consistency when he returns, that would be huge for us (maybe unlikely, sure). 

Point being, I don't think anyone was implying Woodson needs input from us on who to play in any given game. But as fans, should we not be able to speculate as to what we think would need to happen for us to go deeper come March?

I think what's being discounted in this conversation is the assumption Reneau/Geronimo continue to improve to the point of earning those minutes away from Race. Maybe they haven't done that yet (don't dispute that). But do I think we'll be more than a S16 team with Race playing the bulk of the time at the 4 unless his knee and decision making both show serious improvement? No. 

Not trying to say Race doesn't have a big role to play come March, but Reneau particularly has shown a lot of promising stuff. Hopefully he keeps it up and wins the trust to play bigger minutes. It won't be anyone's fault if he doesn't (or at least we probably won't know enough to fairly assign blame). 

At this point I trust Woodson to put the team in the best position to win. 

...but I do reserve the right to have an opinion. Lol

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

1 hour ago, TeeterInNJ said:

... I agree with both of you, to a degree. 

Race is an important part of the team, don't think anyone is disputing that. 

The team's ceiling, IMO, seems higher when Geronimo/Reneau play big minutes (~18-24) 

That doesn't mean Race shouldn't be playing at all or getting the minutes he is right now, at this moment in time. 

But, if we're commenting as fans after watching these past few games, I think it's fair to speculate about the best lineup that gives us a chance to win in March. Reneau seems to be getting a better grip on his foul trouble (still needs his Coach obviously). Geronimo had some solid performances before his injury, if he can find some consistency when he returns, that would be huge for us (maybe unlikely, sure). 

Point being, I don't think anyone was implying Woodson needs input from us on who to play in any given game. But as fans, should we not be able to speculate as to what we think would need to happen for us to go deeper come March?

I think what's being discounted in this conversation is the assumption Reneau/Geronimo continue to improve to the point of earning those minutes away from Race. Maybe they haven't done that yet (don't dispute that). But do I think we'll be more than a S16 team with Race playing the bulk of the time at the 4 unless his knee and decision making both show serious improvement? No. 

Not trying to say Race doesn't have a big role to play come March, but Reneau particularly has shown a lot of promising stuff. Hopefully he keeps it up and wins the trust to play bigger minutes. It won't be anyone's fault if he doesn't (or at least we probably won't know enough to fairly assign blame). 

At this point I trust Woodson to put the team in the best position to win. 

...but I do reserve the right to have an opinion. Lol

Malik still has to have ppl to guard and I simply didn't think it was hard to see Malik had missed some stuff defensively until the 6 min mark when Race came back in... plus, Rutgers went small... with McConnell at the 4, imo, there was no way for Malik to be on the court at that point with the matchup he had, plus he's shown to struggle when getting switched onto a guard.. 

I can see that our offense, at times, looks better with Malik on the court. 

The bold, I agree. That still doesn't auto-mean the other two are always better options. I want Race to play better offensively.. but we still have to defend.

I thought the last two games we saw some progress in his knee.  

[Home Jersey 6,532]

4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Malik still has to have ppl to guard and I simply didn't think it was hard to see Malik had missed some stuff defensively until the 6 min mark when Race came back in... plus, Rutgers went small... with McConnell at the 4, imo, there was no way for Malik to be on the court at that point with the matchup he had, plus he's shown to struggle when getting switched onto a guard.. 

I can see that our offense, at times, looks better with Malik on the court. 

The bold, I agree. That still doesn't auto-mean the other two are always better options. I want Race to play better offensively.. but we still have to defend.

I thought the last two games we saw some progress in his knee.  

In the end, rotations will probably end up depending on matchups (and injuries) more than anything else. Glad they've built some good momentum! 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

Is there any possible way, Malik as FR and a lot of times playing against 21-23 year olds, isn't in the most elite of shapes conditioning wise and the staff believes he is best suited to play the amount of mins he is currently getting?

That would be... a coaching staff putting a player in a spot to succeed, imo. 

I mean.. he's still getting 17mpg the last 6 games. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,881]

Just now, TeeterInNJ said:

In the end, rotations will probably end up depending on matchups (and injuries) more than anything else. Glad they've built some good momentum! 

Uncle Mo can be a dangerous thing. 4 of 5 on the road coming up.. all hands on deck.