Early 2022-2023 Top 25

[Brass Cannon 24,810]

34 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Borzello/ESPN pops us up to #14:

14. Indiana Hoosiers

Previous: 15

Given that the Hoosiers have finished better than ninth in the Big Ten once since 2016, it feels like a risk saying this, but here goes: With Trayce Jackson-Davis withdrawing from the NBA draft and returning to Bloomington, Indiana will likely enter the season as the Big Ten favorite. Jackson-Davis is a dominant force on the interior and will get preseason All-American recognition in some circles, and he's leading a core of four returning starters from a team that won 21 games in Mike Woodson's first campaign at the helm. The Hoosiers are also adding five-star recruits Malik Reneau and Jalen Hood-Schifino, as well as ESPN 100 prospect Kaleb Banks. Expect a step forward from former top-25 prospect Tamar Bates, too. The glaring issue for Indiana is going to be perimeter shooting; the Hoosiers shot just 31.9% from 3 in Big Ten play last season, ranking next-to-last in the league.

Projected starting lineup:

Xavier Johnson (12.1 PPG)
Jalen Hood-Schifino (No. 24 in ESPN 100)
Miller Kopp (6.0 PPG)
Race Thompson (11.1 PPG)
Trayce Jackson-Davis (18.3 PPG)

He better start hitting 3 or else I want Galloway or Geronimo 

[Honkyman 1,670]

2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

Projected starting lineup:

Xavier Johnson (12.1 PPG)
Jalen Hood-Schifino (No. 24 in ESPN 100)
Miller Kopp (6.0 PPG)
Race Thompson (11.1 PPG)
Trayce Jackson-Davis (18.3 PPG)

 

I agree that is the likely starting lineup at the beginning of the season. The starting lineup could change depending upon player performance or Woodson could simply go to the bench earlier than last season. The real issue is which players are on the floor at the end of close games.

[5fouls 94]

25 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

I agree that is the likely starting lineup at the beginning of the season. The starting lineup could change depending upon player performance or Woodson could simply go to the bench earlier than last season. The real issue is which players are on the floor at the end of close games.

I think Tamar Bates is who we need to see starting at the 3 slot.  He may or may not earn it.  But, for IU to be as good as it can be, that's what needs to happen.  He needs to be our most reliable 3 point shooter.

[Honkyman 1,670]

8 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

He needs to be our most reliable 3 point shooter.

Tamar Bates will need to improve his shooting significantly to be IU's "most reliable 3-point shooter." He only shot 29% last year, which was 7th on the team. Jordan Geronimo and Anthony Leal shot better than Bates from 3, as did of course Miller Kopp (even Lander shot better from 3).  Perhaps, by the end of the season Bates will be playing starter minutes but I doubt he starts to begin the season.

[chicagoHOOSIER 1,051]

Has Jordan Hulls started his new job at IU yet? IU really needs him badly to teach the guys on this team how to shoot like they play for Indiana University. I just don't see how the team lives up to this level of pre-season hype if the whole team still can't shoot the ball again next year. I am loving the hype, but IU gets a lot of pre-season hype nearly every season, and often a lot of that talk is based on brand recognition and writers who like to suckup to the fanbase in the offseason to get IU fans to read articles when talk is cheap. I love that we are expected to be better next year, but the team's ceiling is lowered significantly if the team still can't shoot the ball. A lot of guys on this IU team need to get better at shooting in order to meet the lofty pre-season projections of sportswriters.

[go iu bb 6,086]

1 hour ago, Honkyman said:

Tamar Bates will need to improve his shooting significantly to be IU's "most reliable 3-point shooter." He only shot 29% last year, which was 7th on the team. Jordan Geronimo and Anthony Leal shot better than Bates from 3, as did of course Miller Kopp (even Lander shot better from 3).  Perhaps, by the end of the season Bates will be playing starter minutes but I doubt he starts to begin the season.

Bates will definitely have to improve his shooting but your argument is not a good one. You look at the percentages but not the volume so 3 of your 4 examples of players who shot better than him also shot many fewer shots. 

Bates: 17/57 (29.8% - rounds up to 30%, not down to 29% as you stated)

Geronimo: 9/29 (31.0%)

Leal: 7/22 (31.8%)

Lander: 4/12 (33.3%)

So Bates took more shots than Geronimo and Leal combined. Throw in Lander and that combination shot only 6 more shots than he did. So what you end up with is 3 small sample sizes in which 1 more make or miss creates a huge difference in percentage.

Percentages if those players missed just 1 more shot:

Bates: 29.8% -> 28.1%

Geronimo: 31.0% -> 27.6%

Leal: 31.8% -> 27.2%

Lander: 33.3% -> 25%

The larger the swing, the smaller and less reliable the sample size. Lander, for example, looks to have improved from his freshman year. However, his freshman year he shot 44 3-pointers instead of just 12. 12 is just too few to really determine if he actually improved his shot or if he just got lucky.

Geronimo shot 4/10 (40%) his freshman year, so would you say he is now a worse shooter than a year ago? Probably not, even though his percentage went down his volume almost tripled. At this time, he's closer to a 30% shooter than 40%. 

So, yes, Bates needs to improve his shooting but please don't use examples of players that shoot far fewer shots than him as better shooters. Maybe they are but that can't be determined based solely on percentages at those volumes.

[HoosierHoopster 6,983]

18 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

Bates will definitely have to improve his shooting but your argument is not a good one. You look at the percentages but not the volume so 3 of your 4 examples of players who shot better than him also shot many fewer shots. 

Bates: 17/57 (29.8% - rounds up to 30%, not down to 29% as you stated)

Geronimo: 9/29 (31.0%)

Leal: 7/22 (31.8%)

Lander: 4/12 (33.3%)

So Bates took more shots than Geronimo and Leal combined. Throw in Lander and that combination shot only 6 more shots than he did. So what you end up with is 3 small sample sizes in which 1 more make or miss creates a huge difference in percentage.

Percentages if those players missed just 1 more shot:

Bates: 29.8% -> 28.1%

Geronimo: 31.0% -> 27.6%

Leal: 31.8% -> 27.2%

Lander: 33.3% -> 25%

The larger the swing, the smaller and less reliable the sample size. Lander, for example, looks to have improved from his freshman year. However, his freshman year he shot 44 3-pointers instead of just 12. 12 is just too few to really determine if he actually improved his shot or if he just got lucky.

Geronimo shot 4/10 (40%) his freshman year, so would you say he is now a worse shooter than a year ago? Probably not, even though his percentage went down his volume almost tripled. At this time, he's closer to a 30% shooter than 40%. 

So, yes, Bates needs to improve his shooting but please don't use examples of players that shoot far fewer shots than him as better shooters. Maybe they are but that can't be determined based solely on percentages at those volumes.

Agree generally on the volume comments and not drawing sweeping conclusions based on limited shooting -- that's always a good rule to follow.

By the same token, though, just looking at Kopp's "percentages" is itself basically misleading. He shot 36% overall, on 3.1 shots per game -- for a whopping total 6 PPG. Meanwhile he played 25.1 MPG.

25-plus minutes, and he took only 3 shots a game and scored only 6 PPG. Meanwhile, JG played (on the season) 12.6 MPG, scoring 4.4 -- and that number obviously went up significantly to close the season when he played 20-plus minutes. Bates scored 3.9 per game, while playing 14.5 MPG - he was only taking 1.8 treys a game. He shot 40% his last two years of HS ball from deep. Yeah he has to convert that to the college game, but there's really no reason to think he can't/won't. The focus on just percentages ignores all of this. Bates can shoot, I'd bet on him shooting more and better this season. Would bet the same for JG too, his form is there, and he knocked down some really bigtime 3's in several games, including coming in cold off the bench.

Woodson essentially played two entirely separate lineups last season and wouldn't change them up, including Kopp/Stewart no matter how poorly they played. I hope that approach changes this season.

[go iu bb 6,086]

3 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Agree generally on the volume comments and not drawing sweeping conclusions based on limited shooting -- that's always a good rule to follow.

By the same token, though, just looking at Kopp's "percentages" is itself basically misleading. He shot 36% overall, on 3.1 shots per game -- for a whopping total 6 PPG. Meanwhile he played 25.1 MPG.

25-plus minutes, and he took only 3 shots a game and scored only 6 PPG. Meanwhile, JG played (on the season) 12.6 MPG, scoring 4.4 -- and that number obviously went up significantly to close the season when he played 20-plus minutes. Bates scored 3.9 per game, while playing 14.5 MPG - he was only taking 1.8 treys a game. He shot 40% his last two years of HS ball from deep. Yeah he has to convert that to the college game, but there's really no reason to think he can't/won't. The focus on just percentages ignores all of this. Bates can shoot, I'd bet on him shooting more and better this season. Would bet the same for JG too, his form is there, and he knocked down some really bigtime 3's in several games, including coming in cold off the bench.

Woodson essentially played two entirely separate lineups last season and wouldn't change them up, including Kopp/Stewart no matter how poorly they played. I hope that approach changes this season.

Kopp seems like a likeable enough fella but I was hoping he'd move on after last season. A "shooter" who starts and plays starter minutes but doesn't shoot or find other ways to score isn't very helpful unless he does a lot of other things really well. Which Kopp doesn't do. He's an ok defender, doesn't rebound, doesn't get many assists (just over 1 per game every year of his career), doesn't draw fouls/get to the line, etc. He's a pretty 1-dimensional player who doesn't even do that 1-dimension particularly well.

He does make some humorous videos, though, so we'll get more of those next season.

Maybe others are right and having him paired with Stewart on the wing hindered him. I hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

I certainly agree with you on the lineups and hope Woodson changes his philosophy on that.

[HoosierHoopster 6,983]

13 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

Kopp seems like a likeable enough fella but I was hoping he'd move on after last season. A "shooter" who starts and plays starter minutes but doesn't shoot or find other ways to score isn't very helpful unless he does a lot of other things really well. Which Kopp doesn't do. He's an ok defender, doesn't rebound, doesn't get many assists (just over 1 per game every year of his career), doesn't draw fouls/get to the line, etc. He's a pretty 1-dimensional player who doesn't even do that 1-dimension particularly well.

He does make some humorous videos, though, so we'll get more of those next season.

Maybe others are right and having him paired with Stewart on the wing hindered him. I hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

I certainly agree with you on the lineups and hope Woodson changes his philosophy on that.

I don't mean to discount Kopp (really, I don't), but while I understand Woodson favored veterans last season (and agree to a certain extent), Kopp to me would be much more effective coming off the bench. He can shoot, his perimeter d is decent, he helps on the floor vocally, he understands SF positioning well. But there's just no good reason to insist on playing a guy as a 'shooter' 25 MPG when the 'shooter' takes about 3 outside shots a game in those 25 and scores 6/game, especially when you have guys like Geronimo and Bates who are much more versatile, clearly can score, etc. So they were young, and fairly inexperienced. Now they're not. 

Just no good reason to stand pat on set lineups. And btw TJD's thoughts on that -- that guys need to play together for chemistry etc. -- are right on.

[Honkyman 1,670]

33 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

So, yes, Bates needs to improve his shooting but please don't use examples of players that shoot far fewer shots than him as better shooters. Maybe they are but that can't be determined based solely on percentages at those volumes.

My point that Bates has a long way to go before he is IU's "most reliable 3-point shooter" needs no examples and cannot be denied. That his 3-point shooting needs substantial improvement is evident by his 3-point percentage. In addition to Kopp, I could have included others like Xavier Johnson and Parker Stewart who like Kopp shot better shooting more 3s than Bates. My point is that at 29.8% Bates last season was no where near being a reliable 3-point shooter. Like all IU fans, I hope he improves. Bates certainly has talent, we all agree. But to assert that IU needs Bates to be its most reliable 3-point shooter next season is ridiculous. (is he suggesting that IU needs Bates to be its most reliable 3-point shooter in order to be successful this coming season?). I'll leave it at I hope Bates improves enough with his 3-point shooting that it helps the team.

[5fouls 94]

1 hour ago, Honkyman said:

My point that Bates has a long way to go before he is IU's "most reliable 3-point shooter" needs no examples and cannot be denied. That his 3-point shooting needs substantial improvement is evident by his 3-point percentage. In addition to Kopp, I could have included others like Xavier Johnson and Parker Stewart who like Kopp shot better shooting more 3s than Bates. My point is that at 29.8% Bates last season was no where near being a reliable 3-point shooter. Like all IU fans, I hope he improves. Bates certainly has talent, we all agree. But to assert that IU needs Bates to be its most reliable 3-point shooter next season is ridiculous. (is he suggesting that IU needs Bates to be its most reliable 3-point shooter in order to be successful this coming season?). I'll leave it at I hope Bates improves enough with his 3-point shooting that it helps the team.

What I said is 'For IU to be as successful as it can be', Bates needs to be its most reliable 3-point shooter.  I say that, not to be ridiculous, but I'll help by pointing out some obvious reasons why.

• Schifino is a freshman and not known to be a shooter
• XJ is our point guard.  While he showed last year he can shoot the 3, your point guard needs to running the offense instead of trying to spot up for 3. 
• Bates can create his own shot better than Kopp
• Galloway, for all his skills, will never be a good shooter.  He will get open looks for a reason.
• I want Geronimo crashing the offensive boards more than I want him spotting up from outside
• If Bates does not improve, Race may actually end up being our most reliable 3-point shooter. That's not necessarily a good thing.
• Leal likely won't get sufficient minutes to make a difference game in and game out.

Is 29% going to cut it?  No.  But, if he Bates shoots that, we are a fringe Top 20 team instead of a potential Top 10 team.  That's my point.  It's not like we have a team full of Alfords, Hulls, Roths and Zeislofts to fall back on. 

Let's revisit this discussion at the end of the year.  If Bates can shoot something like 38%, we'll be talking about how critical that was to the team's success.  If he shoots 30%, we'll be talking about how much better the team would have been if he shot better.  Kopp is the only other option that seems capable of filling that outside shooting void.  And, in my estimation, if Bates beats Kopp out for starts/minutes, IU will be better for it.   

 

 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

It’s not who starts but who finishes… unless, you know, you’re digging out of holes consistently trying to get back in the game because your senior “shooter” isn’t a maker and consistently takes bad shots.

We need to have a better lineup to start games. The talent should be there. He can play a role on the team but should know where his spots are. That will help his percentages and help the team to win games. Not over helping on any drive that’s close to him, leaving shooters wide open would go a long ways too.


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[Southside 1,914]

Popping in after reading an article...

Not sure if anyone posted all the different ranks together. Sorry if dup..

 

ESPN – No. 14

CBS Sports – No. 17

NCAA.com – No. 19 (not updated since April)

Stadium – No. 9

Bart Torvik – No. 13 (and #1 in the B10)

 

Overall, stoked with TJD coming back, and it's nice to have not 1, but 2, five star kids coming in. Not to mention 4 of 5 starters...

My thoughts

• TJD, XJ, and Race is a nice core.
• I hope Kopp comes off the bench. I think he'd be more effective.
• Hoping Geronimo or Galloway takes over as the #4 minutes guy.
• I like having XJ as the vet, and Bates and HS rotating in at the second G spot. I think we'll see both up our ability to "create". 
• While I think Reneau's minutes will be very small come regular season, would love to see him get some early time in preseason so we all can see what we might have.
• More than anything, got shoot better, especially the 3.
• I just don't see worse than #3 in the B10. 
• Very nice first year by Woody. I just hope folks don't jump the shark expectation wise. 

 

[ray 1,570]

10 hours ago, Southside said:

Popping in after reading an article...

Not sure if anyone posted all the different ranks together. Sorry if dup..

 

ESPN – No. 14

CBS Sports – No. 17

NCAA.com – No. 19 (not updated since April)

Stadium – No. 9

Bart Torvik – No. 13 (and #1 in the B10)

 

Overall, stoked with TJD coming back, and it's nice to have not 1, but 2, five star kids coming in. Not to mention 4 of 5 starters...

My thoughts

• TJD, XJ, and Race is a nice core.
• I hope Kopp comes off the bench. I think he'd be more effective.
• Hoping Geronimo or Galloway takes over as the #4 minutes guy.
• I like having XJ as the vet, and Bates and HS rotating in at the second G spot. I think we'll see both up our ability to "create". 
• While I think Reneau's minutes will be very small come regular season, would love to see him get some early time in preseason so we all can see what we might have.
• More than anything, got shoot better, especially the 3.
• I just don't see worse than #3 in the B10. 
• Very nice first year by Woody. I just hope folks don't jump the shark expectation wise. 

 

If you like Bates and JHS rotating in at the G Spot, then who do you like hitting the other four pleasure zones? Just curious…

[MikeRoberts 7,013]

2 hours ago, ray said:

If you like Bates and JHS rotating in at the G Spot, then who do you like hitting the other four pleasure zones? Just curious…

Did you mean this to sound dirty?

[IUFAN1976 3,166]

6 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

Did you mean this to sound dirty?

Of course he did!  Ha, ha, ha!

[Stuhoo 80,877]

 

[Hoosierfanyuh 2,260]

34 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Yeah the illinois fans are losing their minds about it lol. Theyre acting like they wont have 4 new starters 

[IUFAN1976 3,166]

Jeff Goodman has IU ranked 11th, about where I think they should be! They are highest ranked B10 team, they next highest is Illinois at 20th. We should be the clear cut favorite to win the B10! It’s been awhile since we’ve been ranked that high and was the favorite to win the B10.

https://watchstadium.com/jeff-goodmans- ... 4-04-2022/

 

 

[Brass Cannon 24,810]

7 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Jeff Goodman has IU ranked 11th, about where I think they should be! They are highest ranked B10 team, they next highest is Illinois at 20th. We should be the clear cut favorite to win the B10! It’s been awhile since we’ve been ranked that high and was the favorite to win the B10.

https://watchstadium.com/jeff-goodmans- ... 4-04-2022/

 

 

My only concern is schedule balance. We played the 4 worst teams twice last year. And seeing how those teams project to likely be the bottom 4 or close to it again. We will likely have one of the tougher big ten schedules.