Odds/Thoughts on building top 25 preseason

[BluegrassHoosier859]

1 hour ago, Home Jersey said:

It's not true that he needs to find an underrated guy every year and turn him into an NBA talent. Not even close... lol. He's got a long enough coaching history before Stirtz to suggest he can coach a roster without NBA talent into playing winning basketball. His recruiting at Iowa will be better than it was at the D2 level. He can develop players and get more out of less recruited players. Absolutely nothing to suggest this is his ceiling as a coach. Takes a lot of mental gymnastics IMO to write off another first year coach for his style of play when he's the one going to the second weekend with an unheralded team. We tried to do that. Just couldn't. 

I don’t think you can be sure he will have recruiting success at Iowa just because D1 players are more talented than D2. He built his D2 program into a power house that the top D2 guys were attracted to. I’d imagine at the D2 level that program was recruiting itself. 
 

Relative to the talent he is now playing against it is a far from a given that he will be able to replicate that success. Maybe he will maybe he won’t but there’s no reason to expect that to be the likely outcome. 

[Home Jersey]

Just now, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

I don’t think you can be sure he will have recruiting success at Iowa just because D1 players are more talented than D2. He built his D2 program into a power house that the top D2 guys were attracted to. I’d imagine at the D2 level that program was recruiting itself. 
 

Relative to the talent he is now playing against it is a far from a given that he will be able to replicate that success. Maybe he will maybe he won’t but there’s no reason to expect that to be the likely outcome. 

I am not saying he will replicate his D2 success at this level. I'm saying it's silly to act like his success is all because Stirtz is so good, as if A) he didn't find Stirtz B) he didn't develop Stirtz C) he now has better resources at Iowa than he did at the D2 school where he first found Stirtz. He's got a great pitch for his kind of player... has a 4 star big from Washington committed in the 2026 class. You give him 3 and 4 star talent, I fail to see why he wouldn't win at a high level when he's currently playing in the second weekend with a bunch of 0 stars.

I'm saying, it's way easier for me to picture McCollum winning at a high level at Iowa than it is for me to picture DDV winning at a high level at Indiana. It currently doesn't require much imagination to see what a good Ben McCollum team looks like. 

[str8baller]

2 minutes ago, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

I’d imagine at the D2 level that program was recruiting itself. 

Seems unlikely. Everyone at that level dreams of playing Div 1. Good recruiters can get guys to come down a level but it’s hardly an easy sell. 
 

Now, the caveat to that is he’s no longer recruiting against other D2 and lower level D1 coaches. He’s recruiting against the best guys out there and if there’s local 5 star talent guys like Self and Scheyer will be in the mix too.  
 

But a no talent recruiter like Woody made some hay by trading off what he did with TJD. McCollum can sell he took a D2 nobody in Stirtz and turned him into a first round draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if a couple of the top PGs or combo-guards in the portal give him strong consideration the same way Ware and Ballo did Woody.

[Golfman25]

2 hours ago, Asha’man said:

It is. Iowa is dependent on Stirtz to either score or draw the defense to him to allow for others to get shots. He has a star on his team and has for 4 years. Let’s see what he can do once the star is gone and little resources to get another one. 

How is that different from every other successful team?  Except they may have multiple stars in the starting rotation.  

[Golfman25]

2 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

Kind of the point.  Some on here are jealous of his success at Iowa in his first year where he went 10-10 and wanted him at IU.  I would have been fine with him at IU and would adjust the way I felt about his style but I feel he isn’t a national title contender which is what people here are IU want right?  I don’t think his style is built for it.  Muck it up means fouling the crap out of everyone every other play as well not just slow pace 

Only the delusional fans.  :]

[BGleas]

3 hours ago, str8baller said:

Seems unlikely. Everyone at that level dreams of playing Div 1. Good recruiters can get guys to come down a level but it’s hardly an easy sell. 
 

Now, the caveat to that is he’s no longer recruiting against other D2 and lower level D1 coaches. He’s recruiting against the best guys out there and if there’s local 5 star talent guys like Self and Scheyer will be in the mix too.  
 

But a no talent recruiter like Woody made some hay by trading off what he did with TJD. McCollum can sell he took a D2 nobody in Stirtz and turned him into a first round draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if a couple of the top PGs or combo-guards in the portal give him strong consideration the same way Ware and Ballo did Woody.

I played D2 and it can be easier at that level, depending on how the school supports it program. I know nothing about the school McCollum was at, but I can tell in the conference I played in the scholarship money was extremely uneven. 

Some schools had a roster of full scholarship guys and other schools might have 2-3 full ride guys and then have to disperse the rest amongst the roster. It's a huge advantage. 

The top teams in each conference would almost always have 2-3 D1 transfers. My senior year the best team in our conference had 3 D1 transfers, one of which was a 6'9 250lb center who was Newcomer of the Year in his D1 conference the year before. Got into some trouble and had to transfer down. 

If you have a financially supported D2 program, it can be like having the most NIL money at the D1 level. You can stack your roster and almost walk into the D2 Tournament each year. 

Again, I don't know how McCollum's program was supported. I'd guess pretty well. I'm also not suggesting his D2 National Titles were easy and not impressive. 

[Asha’man]

5 hours ago, Home Jersey said:

It's not true that he needs to find an underrated guy every year and turn him into an NBA talent. Not even close... lol. He's got a long enough coaching history before Stirtz to suggest he can coach a roster without NBA talent into playing winning basketball. His recruiting at Iowa will be better than it was at the D2 level. He can develop players and get more out of less recruited players. Absolutely nothing to suggest this is his ceiling as a coach. Takes a lot of mental gymnastics IMO to write off another first year coach for his style of play when he's the one going to the second weekend with an unheralded team. We tried to do that. Just couldn't. 

He has a 2 year track record in devision 1. He doesn’t have a long track record against coaches at the top of the profession. You’re making a leap to think his lower division record automatically will translate to long term success. He will be going up against pros with a team that’s will lose his best player who sets the tone. Will he be able to find the next Stirtz? Maybe. But they also lost 7 of 9 to finish the year and his team played well this weekend. Judy is still out. I think k we both feel the other is making decisions off mental gymnastics. I’m not writing him off at all. I’m saying this is his ceiling. He won’t have a more talented roster because Iowa will. It give him the support for him to excel. It’s more of an indictment on Iowa than McCollum. Bo Ryan and Tony Bennett are great coaches and I wouldn’t want them at IU either because I’d rather have a team that plays an attractive style and also win. 

[Home Jersey]

11 minutes ago, Asha’man said:

I’m not writing him off at all. I’m saying this is his ceiling. 

This is literally writing him off lol.

Not many mental gymnastics required to believe a second year D1 coach headed to the S16 with a core he built at lower levels will continue succeeding over his career. Much easier to see Iowa basketball succeeding than Indiana basketball succeeding right now. You can actually still watch them play this season and compete for a title haha.

I'd love Bo Ryan or Tony Bennett's brand of basketball in Bloomington. Anywho I'm content to table it for now and we can wait to find out who has a better career when it's all said and done. 

[realTomCrean]

Bidunga, Booker, Haralson, & more available. He doesn’t need to leave the state to be Top 25 if he locked down the borders. “The best from Indiana play at Indiana” 

[Magisterium]

11 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

Bidunga, Booker, Haralson, & more available. He doesn’t need to leave the state to be Top 25 if he locked down the borders. “The best from Indiana play at Indiana” 

IU hasn’t really “locked down the borders” since Mike Davis blew off in-state guys like Hummel, Johnson, etc and wasted time and energy chasing Josh Smith all over everywhere.

[realTomCrean]

7 minutes ago, Magisterium said:

IU hasn’t really “locked down the borders” since Mike Davis blew off in-state guys like Hummel, Johnson, etc and wasted time and energy chasing Josh Smith all over everywhere.

No but we were close: “The Movement”, Cody Z, JBJ, Tipton Tornado, Hartman, more. Just the best teams since 2010 had it right almost. It still stings we lost Gary Harris to MSU 

[str8baller]

58 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I played D2 and it can be easier at that level, depending on how the school supports it program. I know nothing about the school McCollum was at, but I can tell in the conference I played in the scholarship money was extremely uneven. 

Some schools had a roster of full scholarship guys and other schools might have 2-3 full ride guys and then have to disperse the rest amongst the roster. It's a huge advantage. 

The top teams in each conference would almost always have 2-3 D1 transfers. My senior year the best team in our conference had 3 D1 transfers, one of which was a 6'9 250lb center who was Newcomer of the Year in his D1 conference the year before. Got into some trouble and had to transfer down. 

If you have a financially supported D2 program, it can be like having the most NIL money at the D1 level. You can stack your roster and almost walk into the D2 Tournament each year. 

Again, I don't know how McCollum's program was supported. I'd guess pretty well. I'm also not suggesting his D2 National Titles were easy and not impressive. 

You’re talking about something entirely different. Any level below the top of P5 has the dynamic you are describing which is essentially: convince kids that belong up a level to come play for you and then overwhelm your competition on talent. It is, imo, the #1 reason guys look good at the lower level and then fail at the elite jobs. You can no longer routinely outrecruit your competitors when you take the IU/Michigan/Duke/etc… job. You have to be able to coach too. 
 

Maybe it wasn’t clear because I was responding to a quote, but my comment was addressing his recruiting prowess, or how he got kids like Stirtz—an all-B1G player—to sign on with him at the D2 level.  If he can replicate that, probably by scouring his region and finding guys to develop, he might have sustained success. Bo Ryan made a career out of doing that with big men. Weirdly enough Gard is kind of doing that with guards out of the portal. I have no idea if McCollumn can do it at this level. 

[str8baller]

12 minutes ago, Magisterium said:

IU hasn’t really “locked down the borders” since Mike Davis blew off in-state guys like Hummel, Johnson, etc and wasted time and energy chasing Josh Smith all over everywhere.

We haven’t locked down the border since Clyde Lovellette bolted for Kansas and won a title.  Lol

But Indiana is a talent rich state which we get too few players from these days. 

[Magisterium]

49 minutes ago, str8baller said:

We haven’t locked down the border since Clyde Lovellette bolted for Kansas and won a title.  Lol

But Indiana is a talent rich state which we get too few players from these days. 

Lovellette didn’t “bolt” he was kidnapped 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, str8baller said:

You’re talking about something entirely different. Any level below the top of P5 has the dynamic you are describing which is essentially: convince kids that belong up a level to come play for you and then overwhelm your competition on talent. It is, imo, the #1 reason guys look good at the lower level and then fail at the elite jobs. You can no longer routinely outrecruit your competitors when you take the IU/Michigan/Duke/etc… job. You have to be able to coach too. 
 

Maybe it wasn’t clear because I was responding to a quote, but my comment was addressing his recruiting prowess, or how he got kids like Stirtz—an all-B1G player—to sign on with him at the D2 level.  If he can replicate that, probably by scouring his region and finding guys to develop, he might have sustained success. Bo Ryan made a career out of doing that with big men. Weirdly enough Gard is kind of doing that with guards out of the portal. I have no idea if McCollumn can do it at this level. 

Thanks for explaining! My bad, I misinterpreted or misread your post. Makes sense now!

[Hardwood83]

12 hours ago, Home Jersey said:

... McCollum is playing chess out there and we are tossing the ball around the top of the arc waiting for someone to chuck a late shot clock 3 lol.

Did you watch Kentucky play? That would make you feel better. They are terrible. I didn't watch them hardly at all this season (before the tourney), but they literally pass the ball a couple times and go one on one or chuck up a shot. No semblance of structure, sets or offense. I was embarrassed for them and I DETEST Kentucky.

My point is it could be worse. pUKe has talent and no coaching whatsoever, from the evidence I saw. I'm not sure DeVries is a great coach, but I think some talent would make him look a lot better.