IU’s basketball culture is dead (and the case for why our next coach should be given 6+ seasons)

[Magnanimous]

As we embark on yet another NCAAT void of Indiana basketball, one where our team’s and fanbase’s absences will not be noticed, I’ll reiterate what I just said in the title - Indiana University’s basketball culture is dead. Whatever it was, however we used to describe it, the feeling it once gave us…it’s gone. When did it finally disappear? I don’t know, maybe around when we resorted to something as pathetic as putting five stars on our shorts to remind television viewers how great we used to be. I would love for a sixth banner to hang in Assembly Hall. I do not want to see a sixth star on our players’ shorts (or any stars on our uniforms for that matter). 

After the actual program’s success started to disappear, we began to get by on nostalgia - the nameless uniforms, imagery of heartland Americana fundamentals, the shadow of Bob Knight, the banners hanging in the background of every picture and television angle. It worked for a while, but now we actually need names on the uniforms to know who is even on our team these days, Bob Knight both finally returned to AH and passed away, and today’s student body wasn’t alive for 9/11, let alone would recognize any semblance of 1987 or the lingering pride that lasted for many years after.

The nostalgic angle could only go on for so long, and I’m afraid we’ve finally reached IUBB apathy at critical mass. True, some of it is a reflection of the greater college basketball landscape. Between one-and-done/the G-League, the transfer portal, and conference realignment, college basketball as a whole is a shell of its former self. But what made Indiana basketball a selling point to recruits, prospective coaches, students, alumni, and the overall fan base is gone. Here’s why:

Two things regarding recruits - (1) there are programs with a foothold on getting top players and it is not us; and (2) there remains a slightly “disturbing sense” (i.e., minor stink) around this program and what it means for a player’s development, the treatment from the fan base, and an inability for players to want to take pride in being an Indiana Hoosier not just as a player but for decades after graduating. How many players from the last 15 years do we expect to show up to IUBB games when they’re 45 years old and wave to receptive fans on the Jumbotron? And if they did, would the fans in attendance even recognize them?

If we want to be a local recruiting power with an Indiana/midwestern identity that retains players for 3+ years then we need to become Purdue. If we want to be a national recruiting power then we need to become UNC and Duke. We’re currently neither despite spending more, and it’s not like those other programs are going anywhere anytime soon. We need to pick a lane. So what is it about this program that we can actually sell to players beyond money?

It’s not like we’ve been killing it in recruiting recently anyway. We do not recruit anywhere near actual top programs, and of the guys we do get, they barely stick around…Since 2004 we have had 85 commitments come here (not including transfers). Granted, some of these commits were JUCOs with two years of eligibility, but of the 85 players, a total of 30 have stayed 3+ seasons with the program. They are:

DJ White, AJ Ratliff, Verdell Jones, Matt Roth, Tom Pritchard, Jordan Hulls,  Maurice Creek, Christian Watford, Derek Elston, Victor Oladipo, Will Sheehy, Yogi Ferrell, Hanner Mosquera-Perea, Collin Hartman, Troy Williams, James Blackmon, Robert Johnson, Tim Priller, Juwan Morgan, Devonte Green, De’Ron Davis, Justin Smith, Al Durham, Race Thompson, Rob Phinisee,  Trayce Jackson-Davis, Jordan Geronimo, Trey Galloway, Anthony Leal, and Malik Reneau.

I don’t know…how many of these names were guys you could really build a nationally competitive program around? Four or five over 20 years?

On prospective coaches, our last 4+ coaching cycles have proven where we stand among the coaching ranks. This is not just an IU problem, but if anyone thinks that “coaching at Indiana” is an opportunity that means much these days then you’re kidding yourself. IU is not a top 10 job anymore (and neither is just about any job except Duke, Kansas, and maybe UNC). Everyone else is tied at 4-40, meaning if you’re coaching at a decent school in a P4 conference then you have all you need to win occasionally at your current school and do not need to be at Indiana, or Louisville, or UCLA, or even Kentucky to win big. And most of those other jobs pay very well and have much lower expectations than what comes with coaching here.

Now on to the students…For the longest time our basketball team got a pass for its mediocrity because football was even worse. We could sell freshmen on Indiana basketball being part of the student experience, something they will remember after they graduate and a privilege to be a part of while on campus. That’s gone with today’s student body, and it will only get harder to sell the longer we go without winning on the court, especially for out-of-state students who did not grow up with generational IUBB stories and lore. Our student body now has the ultimate bragging rights in the country’s biggest sport. Our football coach is the face of the sport and our university. Indiana students have finally tasted success and they’ve experienced it in something that is more fun to watch, attend, and socialize around than basketball. Why would (or should) they haul their butts to AH on a cold January night to support a mediocre team with a new rotation of faces that will be gone each year? I certainly do not think we’ll become Auburn or Texas where basketball is something cute that is only there to kill time in the winter, but at least as long as Cignetti is here IUBB will also have to compete with IUFB. 

Finally the fans and alumni…I haven’t been tracking attendance this year, but I can say that I have never been less enthusiastic or interested in following a team than this year. Part of it was definitely football cutting well into basketball season, but the underwhelming hire that was DeVries and the player turnover allowed apathy to settle in quickly once the losses piled in. Myself aside, in general, the buzz around the program on the internet, media, among friends, game watches at bars, it all feels missing right now. We finally played Kentucky in basketball this year. The buildup for that game was nothing compared to how it was 15+ years ago. The fans and alumni are the glue that have held this program together for 25 years. Unlike Nebraska football, which is all their fans have (this basketball season aside), Hoosier Nation is more dispersed and has other teams to follow, even in our own state. The lynchpin for IUBB being our eternally optimistic and loyal fan base is not sustainable if the program is no longer creating new generations of fans at scale. 

None of this is to say that Indiana basketball is not historic or does not hold a special place in the sport, but nostalgia and fan support have not won us games and an open checkbook in an era where players can be paid is not getting us winning rosters. There has been something fundamentally off with how this program is approaching the sport because it should not be this difficult for this long. The administration is not the problem, which some alluded to as the cause in previous years. We now have a university president who helped support a championship team in football from the ground up in two years. It should not be this hard for Indiana basketball to be good, especially since we’re one of 6-8 resource-rich programs in the country that actually emphasizes basketball…but yet it still is… 

So what now is Indiana University basketball? To be honest, I really don’t know. We can say we’re a blue blood and point to our banners, tradition, and fans, but that doesn’t win us games and at this point recruits don’t care. No one under 30 has “grown up with Indiana basketball.” We can say we’re always only one coach away, and if we keep trying enough coaches then we’ll finally land the guy who can keep local talent at home and sprinkle in national recruits to finally make us a perennial top 10 team again. To be honest, I think there may be too much cultural inertia and delusional fan expectations to let a coach breathe and build here. To be more succinct,  I’m skeptical if we had landed Brad Stephens or Dusty May that they would have been as successful here as they were/are at Butler and Michigan.

This football championship and the culture/identity that Cignetti instilled to make it happen has been really sobering when looking at our meddling basketball program. Do we need a basketball coach who has experience, can lead his team, and build a culture? Absolutely. We cannot have someone lazy like Woodson, completely misguided like Archie, or in over his head like Davis. But to do so we either (1) need to keep the coaching carousel moving until we finally hit, or (2) we can be hands off, let this program finally get some stability, and allow a new culture to emerge. 

I’m firmly in the camp of option #2 at this point. 

I really like the Carr hire, and I’m hopeful that DeVries will be accepting of Carr/Dolson running the show and DeVries just managing the games. If DeVries can’t accept the new approach next season then I say we get rid of him in March 2027. But if he stays beyond Year 2, or if we bring someone in to replace him for 2027-2028, then DeVries/this other coach should be given a while to let this new Carr approach work and make something of their own in Bloomington. The fans/IU media need to let go of what Indiana was and allow whatever Indiana can be to manifest. I’m talking giving whoever is our 2027-28 coach 6-8 seasons to breathe and let something build organically. Get a new culture in here, even if it takes a few years to emerge. What that looks like or will be is TBD right now, but it needs to be forward thinking and look beyond selling tradition and nostalgia. Keep the candy stripes, keep the simple uniforms, and make sure the players are not scumbags…other than that, I’m indifferent to what this program looks like 3-5 years from now as long as something sustainable is allowed to happen. Because whatever Indiana basketball was or thinks it is….it isn’t. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

Is there a Cliff's Notes version?

[Magnanimous]

11 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Is there a Cliff's Notes version?

Read it on the can.

[AZ Hoosier]

15 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Is there a Cliff's Notes version?

[AH1971]

For me, the realization came after we Fired Crean and the subsequent coaching search that followed. I think that was the first time I realized how big the disconnect between fanbase/administration and reality really was.

The national media/audience laughed at IU for firing a coach who essentially won two B10 outright titles in a 6 year span with multiple second weekend appearances after bringing the program back from the dead. Meanwhile, we told ourselves we were poaching Billy Donovan from the NBA lol. Every coaching search that has followed has been equally entertaining and just brings out the worst in a section of the fan base. 
 

There’s no easy fix to this, if a fix at all depending on your expectations. We’ve been searching for our next “General” for almost 30 years…10 years ago in finally came to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. 

[str8baller]

1 hour ago, Magnanimous said:

This football championship and the culture/identity that Cignetti instilled to make it happen has been really sobering when looking at our meddling basketball program. Do we need a basketball coach who has experience, can lead his team, and build a culture? Absolutely. We cannot have someone lazy like Woodson, completely misguided like Archie, or in over his head like Davis. But to do so we either (1) need to keep the coaching carousel moving until we finally hit, or (2) we can be hands off, let this program finally get some stability, and allow a new culture to emerge. 

I’m firmly in the camp of option #2 at this point. 

Gotta say, I’m pretty curious as to how you could use Cig and IU football as an example and come to the conclusion you need 6 years.

 

Somebody is going to have to connect those dots for me. 

[Magnanimous]

16 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Gotta say, I’m pretty curious as to how you could use Cig and IU football as an example and come to the conclusion you need 6 years.

 

Somebody is going to have to connect those dots for me. 

Because Cig was coaching with no external pressure and was allowed to do things his way from scratch. Would he have been allowed to bring 13 JMU transfers with him and start them if he was at Auburn or Oklahoma?

[AH1971]

2 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

Because Cig was coaching with no external pressure and was allowed to do things his was from scratch. Would he have been allowed to bring 13 JMU transfers with him and start them if he was at Auburn or Oklahoma?

Ding ding ding

Had Cig gone 6-6 year 1 no one is talking about firing him.

[Home Jersey]

12 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

Because Cig was coaching with no external pressure and was allowed to do things his was from scratch. Would he have been allowed to bring 13 JMU transfers with him and start them if he was at Auburn or Oklahoma?

 

9 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Ding ding ding

Even so, how is the answer to let a guy who isn't cutting it get 6 years? Didn't we basically just do what you're suggesting with Crean, then proceed to waste 4 years on Archie and 4 on Woody? For what reason? To diminish fan interest entirely? The answer is for the fans to shut up and go away and come back if / when they start winning again? They're no longer "building" anything from "scratch" at that point. 

If it's clear a guy can't win, there's little point in keeping them around once that's clear. I don't think you can fairly say that before 3 seasons, maybe 2 with the portal. But because of buyouts, 2 will never be a realistic minimum of years unless things are exceptionally bad. 

So I guess put me in camp #1. Go to the coaching carousel until we hit. But most importantly, stop missing. Just make a good hire. The fanbase is currently the program's greatest asset by a country mile. 

[Magnanimous]

22 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

 

Even so, how is the answer to let a guy who isn't cutting it get 6 years? Didn't we basically just do what you're suggesting with Crean, then proceed to waste 4 years on Archie and 4 on Woody? For what reason? To diminish fan interest entirely? The answer is for the fans to shut up and go away and come back if / when they start winning again? They're no longer "building" anything from "scratch" at that point. 

If it's clear a guy can't win, there's little point in keeping them around once that's clear. I don't think you can fairly say that before 3 seasons, maybe 2 with the portal. But because of buyouts, 2 will never be a realistic minimum of years unless things are exceptionally bad. 

So I guess put me in camp #1. Go to the coaching carousel until we hit. But most importantly, stop missing. Just make a good hire. The fanbase is currently the program's greatest asset by a country mile. 

That’s a fair point, but you can look at it different ways. Crean’s first three years was the worst stretch in program history. He then had the top ranked program in the country by Year 5. Things can change if given time. 

Yes, a coach needs to show a baseline level of competency, but he also needs to be given time to build his culture and make it sustainable. I’m well aware that other coaches have walked into other programs and been successful much quicker. This is an Indiana problem. 

[WayneFleekHoosier]

25 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Ding ding ding

Had Cig gone 6-6 year 1 no one is talking about firing him.

That’s always the excuse.  It’s a good way to get a bad coach an extended stay too.  
 

Cig didn’t excel because of lack of pressure. That’s insane. 
 

Cig excelled because he’s confident, cocky, and capable.  He had a plan and he executed it and it worked.  He said, outright he was going to win. He brought pressure onto himself that he didn’t need to do nationally.  (Sure he over performed likely his own expectations, but he never cowers)

DeVries is not Cig in any form or fashion.  Hiring someone with a similar confidence and a proven system would be a start.  We HAVE never done this.  

[Home Jersey]

21 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

That’s a fair point, but you can look at it different ways. Crean’s first three years was the worst stretch in program history. He then had the top ranked program in the country by Year 5. Things can change if given time.

And the fans readily accepted that it would be a total rebuild, endured the 3 worst years in program history. They were willing to wait while he instilled his culture. Then Crean imploded. Then we wasted a lot of time between doofus #1 and doofus #2. The program was plenty stable under them. It just sucked and never got better. And fans still showed up. Being "hands off" won't help the program. The program is about the coach.

21 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

I’m well aware that other coaches have walked into other programs and been successful much quicker. This is an Indiana problem. 

No it isn't. Indiana's problem is hiring bad basketball coaches. Wanna know how I know? Kelvin Sampson.

We were on a great basketball trajectory with him because he can coach (he had to go for other reasons).

People really try to force a square peg in a round hole with the lessons they derive from Cig and IUFB IMO. Fans have no real influence on the culture coaches build inside the locker room. That's why Cig succeeded... not because he was allowed space to breathe, which the basketball coach in Bloomington is not afforded. Whether DDV succeeds or fails here, the fans will have nothing to do with it. 

[Magnanimous]

6 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

That’s always the excuse.  It’s a good way to get a bad coach an extended stay too.  
 

Cig didn’t excel because of lack of pressure. That’s insane. 
 

Cig excelled because he’s confident, cocky, and capable.  He had a plan and he executed it and it worked.  He said, outright he was going to win. He brought pressure onto himself that he didn’t need to do nationally.  (Sure he over performed likely his own expectations, but he never cowers)

DeVries is not Cig in any form or fashion.  Hiring someone with a similar confidence and a proven system would be a start.  We HAVE never done this.  

I personally want DeVries gone and to bring in someone with that attitude ASAP. That’s partly why I wanted McCollum, because is both fiery and has a system he wants to run. But again, whether it’s DeVreies because he improves next year or the coach that comes after, we let him breathe. We don’t start a “Fire ____” thread after two seasons.

Cig had the attitude and chops to win, but he was also allowed to literally do whatever he wanted to define his program’s culture and approach. He didn’t have meddling boosters telling him what to do or have to adhere to any inherited image or culture of the IU football program. The first thing he did was throw out the LEO signs. Again, would he have been allowed to do things his way at a Texas or an Auburn?

[WayneFleekHoosier]

3 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

I personally want DeVries gone and to bring in someone with that attitude ASAP. That’s partly why I wanted McCollum, because is both fiery and has a system he wants to run. But again, whether it’s DeVreies because he improves next year or the coach that comes after, we let him breathe. We don’t start a “Fire ____” thread after two seasons.

Cig had the attitude and chops to win, but he was also allowed to literally do whatever he wanted to define his program’s culture and approach. He didn’t have meddling boosters telling him what to do or have to adhere to any inherited image or culture of the IU football program. The first thing he did was throw out the LEO signs. Again, would he have been allowed to do things his way at a Texas or an Auburn?

Basketball has fallen way off.  Nationally there are zero expectations at Indiana because we suck. Locally there is moderate pressure because we want to be good enough to be in the tournament again.  And then build from there.  But the Bar is set really low.  DeVries didn’t get treated too bad this season at all. Locally or nationally. It was a meh season, and a meh reaction.  Slight heat on the late season slide but at a real Blueblood with real expectations the fire would be burning up a coach’s @$$ with our results. 
 

Im not off the DeVries bus at all.  But depending on how this portal goes and next season, I will have seen enough to make a decision.  His personality is bland but kinda likeable in the Everyman sense.  If he starts winning, I’ll love him. He seems from the outside looking in, a bit overwhelmed. 
 

Indiana fans are ready to rally behind a winner so hard.  Produce a winner and the fans will be the wind beneath the wings. 
 

In general we were pretty tame considering how this year went.  However he did little to help himself moving forward, and he’s lost me on his ability to scout the level of talent necessary to win. That’s what’s most concerning to me. 

[str8baller]

1 hour ago, Magnanimous said:

Because Cig was coaching with no external pressure and was allowed to do things his way from scratch. Would he have been allowed to bring 13 JMU transfers with him and start them if he was at Auburn or Oklahoma?

Devries faced no extra pressure and was allowed to bring in 2 Drake starters out of 5 total. By percentages Devries brought more of his guys than Cig.
 

The idea that IU football pre-Cig was the easier program to win at than IU basketball is something I’m unlikely to be sold on. 

[Muskie plays the four]

I thought I was reading War and Peace again. 

[AH1971]

1 hour ago, Home Jersey said:

 

Even so, how is the answer to let a guy who isn't cutting it get 6 years? Didn't we basically just do what you're suggesting with Crean, then proceed to waste 4 years on Archie and 4 on Woody? For what reason? To diminish fan interest entirely? The answer is for the fans to shut up and go away and come back if / when they start winning again? They're no longer "building" anything from "scratch" at that point. 

If it's clear a guy can't win, there's little point in keeping them around once that's clear. I don't think you can fairly say that before 3 seasons, maybe 2 with the portal. But because of buyouts, 2 will never be a realistic minimum of years unless things are exceptionally bad. 

So I guess put me in camp #1. Go to the coaching carousel until we hit. But most importantly, stop missing. Just make a good hire. The fanbase is currently the program's greatest asset by a country mile. 

Going to the coaching carousel every 3-4 years is how you stay on the merry-go-round for an infinite amount of time. There are so many external factors working against IU, fan base included, that make the hiring process next to impossible. And it gets harder every cycle. 

[AH1971]

24 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Devries faced no extra pressure and was allowed to bring in 2 Drake starters out of 5 total. By percentages Devries brought more of his guys than Cig.
 

The idea that IU football pre-Cig was the easier program to win at than IU basketball is something I’m unlikely to be sold on. 

Winning vs meeting expectations. Agreed, historically IU football is one of the hardest places to win at. It’s also one of the easiest places to succeed at because the bar is set so low. 

[Ryno6284]

3 hours ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Is there a Cliff's Notes version?

How many times did you fall asleep reading that monster?! LOL

[Home Jersey]

18 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Going to the coaching carousel every 3-4 years is how you stay on the merry-go-round for an infinite amount of time. There are so many external factors working against IU, fan base included, that make the hiring process next to impossible. And it gets harder every cycle. 

You can't become a revolving door with the 3-4 year cycle because of the buyout money. The takeaway isn't to give mediocre or bad coaches a longer leash, it's to hire a good or great coach. 3 years is enough time to prove you're the man for the job. If you don't have momentum after 3 years at a place like IU you probably never will. Eventually you have to pick a guy you will ride through the ups and downs with, including a rare bad year here and there. But you gotta ride with the right guy otherwise you're stuck going in the wrong direction.