Maryland vs Indiana - Game Thread, Fri., 12/1 @ 7 BTN

[HoosierHoopster 6,829]

Cupps is a thin Frosh who is learning to run (as pg) a high major college team, with an offense that is clearly still developing, and with a body that doesn’t yet have a year of college weight training and nutrition. What he brings to the table right now is floor vision and generally pretty solid decision making. He doesn’t make many mistakes. 

He’s not an immediate impact player like a Yogi, but he is looking like a guy who will grow into a strong college point. 

Hulls was really a 2 but I continue to see fair comparisons (no, not that they’re both white lol). Neither came in strong, particularly athletic, very fast, or big. Both came in looking like savvy on ball players, both good shooters, both made few mistakes early, both played immediately within the offensive flow — their early grasp of the speed of the college game ((so much faster than HS) was pretty apparent early on. 

Cupps absolutely should be getting decent minutes, as he is, he is growing into the college point role, you can see the promise in his game - my only complaint is why isn’t he shooting? The kid can shoot, get him looks and/or let him create some shots for himself along with Bako. He needs to contribute more to the offense and that includes assisting better, but I think that’s going to come.

edit- some discussion above of guys who developed well over time. How about Collin Hartman? Scrawny frosh, fans on HSN posting he should transfer (I never like that talk, some people actually wanted Wat to transfer), had offseason knee surgery, by his junior season he was a strong contributor. 
For that matter Yogi had this ridiculous tendency as a frosh to run straight into traffic leave his feet and only then realize he wasn’t sure who he was going to pass to - point guards in particular need time to develop 

[Hovadipo 55,102]

[J34 1,472]

With the Cupps and CJ(and backcourt in general)debate, I believe Woody is just wanting someone to not give away possessions on offense,  and play hard nosed smart defense.  With our ability to provide 50-60ppg from our frontcourt, we just need our backcourt to keep defenses honest. If we can get a statline like Trey had last night, consistently from any of our guards, this team could be dangerous. 

PS- Kaleb Banks needs to play somewhere, he's this close to putting it together! 

[Golfman25 5,012]

1 hour ago, Ngw7183 said:

I have zero issues admitting that. In fact, pretty sure I have acknowledged this in every post about him. My only argument is he and Cupps are about equal and one has more upside. But neither is playing well. It really is that simple.

For some reasons, about half the fans don’t want to believe the stats screaming at them and their trend.

At end of the day, we don’t have X for a couple more so they both need to contribute way more than they have or this will be a couple of loses. 

I don’t see anybody not believing the stats. What I see are people, like myself, putting stats in proper context.  

[BGleas 7,880]

14 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

I am well aware there is more than stats. I bring up stats as something factual rather than just “my opinion” or “to my eyes.”  This is similar to my argument when I said MM was on JHS timeline to my eyes and the stats. You didn’t agree as your eyes said the stats were wrong. 

We see how that has been going since and in fact, he is more contributory to the team at this point than JHS was. I fully expect that to continue to my eyes and the stats. 

The stats back up what I see with Cupps who is out of position a lot too, he can’t guard quick big ten guards and does zero on offense. No assist, not points, nothing. He doesn’t really direct offense either. 

You have your opinion on what Woody sees and I have mine. Woody is losing trust and you could see it. Cupps was a quick yank, in Harvard for Leal’s first minutes and twice yesterday after poor play. Woody doesn’t see them as equal roles. He sees Leal, Trey and Cupps as the only ball handler/pg type guys we have. When X is back and going, I expect to see Cupps minutes drop a lot and CJ to stay around 15. Again, Woody sees them as different roles. 

I could happily debate this all day but know some get tired of the back and forth. I hope Cupps can prove me way wrong next 2 games because we need way more from him to get to road wins. 

We're just never going to agree in these topics and that's ok. Leal is not taking Cupps minutes, he's taking Gunn's. I don't even see how that is a debatable point? 

Harvard was the first game Leal played in and Gunn had his minutes drop to only 3 and didn't play at all in the 2nd half. On this team Gunn is in the guard rotation and can't get minutes ahead of Cupps and has been losing some minutes to Leal. 

It's just factual. 

On the JHS/MM thing. MM playing better is just that, he's playing better. Most of us expected him to begin to play better. His defense has improved to a somewhat serviceable point, he's getting himself more involved by rebounding, especially on the offensive side, and Woodson is finally running more sets for him. 

That's all true, but it doesn't make some early season comparison to JHS last year accurate or true. We both agree their games are completely different, but their early season contributions were also vastly different. 

[BGleas 7,880]

14 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

It doesn’t matter what class they are. That isn’t the point. My point was to @BGleasand him saying the data is wrong. He said same thing on MM. 

We have a lot of strong opinions on here. Mine included. Those strong opinions lead for many to say Walker (senior) shouldn’t see a minute the rest of year and MM needed benched and they couldn’t see the talent at all. Those opinions were quickly extinguished in a few games. My point there is the stats and my eye test for what good it is, showed people were over reacting and they were fine, turns out they were. Data does matter but seems most here don’t like it. It does help remove bias. 

CJ may be a soph but he has very little game minutes. We have people ready to give up on him completely because of how he is playing but Cupps they think is playing well. Even Leal. We even have those who thought Leal and Cupps “played good but MM was just ok” - All the data and my eye test says Cupps was least productive player we had last night. 

People can say it is more than stats and data which there is some truth to. But at some point when the data it screaming at you, you have to listen.  You combine that with player attributes and our best option to get another productive guard this year is CJ. 

Ultimately this falls on the staff and I have been a huge supporter of them. I know they tried in the portal but they had to find another effective guard. We really have 2. One is injured and the other finally started playing better. That is rough. 

Woah, slow down there. I never said the data was wrong. 

I understand the data and analytics. But the data and analytics are not the end all be all. For the hundredth time, they are only one part of a larger story. 

You have to be able to critically think the game beyond the data. Why is the data showing me what it's showing me?

Why are guys inefficient? What's making them inefficient? 

With two inefficient guys, is one high usage and inefficient vs another that is low usage?

Are one guys bad defensive stats because he's largely gambling and out of position which causes everyone else to have to scramble and stresses our defense unnecessarily at times and is the other largely because of size? I can deal with the latter but not the former. 

The why is just as important as the numbers, and Woodson most likely using the data and what he sees and know, which is how it should be. 

[BGleas 7,880]

13 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

I have zero issues admitting that. In fact, pretty sure I have acknowledged this in every post about him. My only argument is he and Cupps are about equal and one has more upside. But neither is playing well. It really is that simple.

For some reasons, about half the fans don’t want to believe the stats screaming at them and their trend.

At end of the day, we don’t have X for a couple more so they both need to contribute way more than they have or this will be a couple of loses. 

Just going to assume I'm in the "half the fans", which isn't really accurate. 

Just making my position crystal clear. I haven't said Cupps is playing well. He's not. We can't have a starting point guard play 20 minutes and basically put up all zeros in the boxscore. That's losing basketball against good teams. 

With that said, he makes less mistakes than Gunn right now. Gunn is a mess on both ends right now. Cupps clearly has more trust from the coaches, it's crystal clear. 

If Gunn had so much potential then it really should be super easy to take minutes from Cupps. Gunn isn't doing it and hasn't shown it. 

So with two guys struggling a coach is going to go with the one that takes less off the table, even if the other guy maybe has the potential to put more on the table. 

But again, to be crystal clear, my stance is NOT that Cupps is playing really well. 

[Stuhoo 79,724]

Not saying Cupps’ shot is a clean as Mgbako’s; it’s not. But it’s not bad and he’s making good decisions and getting (and missing) good looks. So it seems very likely to me that Cupps is gonna have a game soon where three or four shots go in.

[BGleas 7,880]

13 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Cupps is a thin Frosh who is learning to run (as pg) a high major college team, with an offense that is clearly still developing, and with a body that doesn’t yet have a year of college weight training and nutrition. What he brings to the table right now is floor vision and generally pretty solid decision making. He doesn’t make many mistakes. 

He’s not an immediate impact player like a Yogi, but he is looking like a guy who will grow into a strong college point. 

Hulls was really a 2 but I continue to see fair comparisons (no, not that they’re both white lol). Neither came in strong, particularly athletic, very fast, or big. Both came in looking like savvy on ball players, both good shooters, both made few mistakes early, both played immediately within the offensive flow — their early grasp of the speed of the college game ((so much faster than HS) was pretty apparent early on. 

Cupps absolutely should be getting decent minutes, as he is, he is growing into the college point role, you can see the promise in his game - my only complaint is why isn’t he shooting? The kid can shoot, get him looks and/or let him create some shots for himself along with Bako. He needs to contribute more to the offense and that includes assisting better, but I think that’s going to come.

edit- some discussion above of guys who developed well over time. How about Collin Hartman? Scrawny frosh, fans on HSN posting he should transfer (I never like that talk, some people actually wanted Wat to transfer), had offseason knee surgery, by his junior season he was a strong contributor. 
For that matter Yogi had this ridiculous tendency as a frosh to run straight into traffic leave his feet and only then realize he wasn’t sure who he was going to pass to - point guards in particular need time to develop 

Largely agree with you here, really good points. 

But I do want to ask a clarifying question. When you say you want Gunn to shoot more, do you mean from the perimeter? 

I'd agree that Gunn needs to use his athleticism to get more shots slashing and at the rim. We need more of that and so far Galloway is really the only guy we have that can do that.

Gunn using his athleticism to get easy shots at the basket and as you said get some assists and playmaking going by attacking could really help. 

But, his perimeter shot is historically bad to this point in his career. I want him taking less perimeter shots, far less, not more. He's been really bad from the outside, like shooting multiple airballs bad. Not even close on his shots. 

[Uspshoosier 45,092]

48 minutes ago, BGleas said:

But, his perimeter shot is historically bad to this point in his career. I want him taking less perimeter shots, far less, not more. He's been really bad from the outside, like shooting multiple airballs bad. Not even close on his shots. 

Someone on staff is surely showing him on tape all the unnecessary stuff he is doing during his shot.    Great play for him to get a curl around for midrange shot where he is wide open in the Maryland game  and he drifts and leg kicked for no reason 

[Stuhoo 79,724]

Ya know that guy on the other team that hasn’t done **** his whole career and goes off for 20 pts against us?

Feels like Gunn is the guy that is going to do that to someone once and then revert.

[IU_FanClub 1,643]

4 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Ya know that guy on the other team that hasn’t done **** his whole career and goes off for 20 pts against us?

Feels like Gunn is the guy that is going to do that to someone once and then revert.

Tamar did it to MSU last year

[IU_FanClub 1,643]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

Not saying Cupps’ shot is a clean as Mgbako’s; it’s not. But it’s not bad and he’s making good decisions and getting (and missing) good looks. So it seems very likely to me that Cupps is gonna have a game soon where three or four shots go in.

I think once Malik starts seeing the floor a little better there are going to be a lot of open looks. He is just a step slow right now on kicking the ball out.

[IUFAN1976 2,787]

10 minutes ago, IU_FanClub said:

I think once Malik starts seeing the floor a little better there are going to be a lot of open looks. He is just a step slow right now on kicking the ball out.

I thought so too.  His court recognition seems slightly off!  

[IUFAN1976 2,787]

26 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Someone on staff is surely showing him on tape all the unnecessary stuff he is doing during his shot.    Great play for him to get a curl around for midrange shot where he is wide open in the Maryland game  and he drifts and leg kicked for no reason 

He seems to do that on almost every shot, he’s watched too many NBA players and thinks he should shoot like that, IMO.  The coaching staff needs to change that in a hurry!  Right now, I have 0 to no confidence that Gunn will make any 3 point shots!

[Stuhoo 79,724]

29 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

He seems to do that on almost every shot, he’s watched too many NBA players and thinks he should shoot like that, IMO.  The coaching staff needs to change that in a hurry!  Right now, I have 0 to no confidence that Gunn will make any 3 point shots!

If you do that in the NBA the refs will call an offensive foul regularly these days. It’s an NBA officiating point of emphasis.

[HoosierHoopster 6,829]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Largely agree with you here, really good points. 

But I do want to ask a clarifying question. When you say you want Gunn to shoot more, do you mean from the perimeter? 

I'd agree that Gunn needs to use his athleticism to get more shots slashing and at the rim. We need more of that and so far Galloway is really the only guy we have that can do that.

Gunn using his athleticism to get easy shots at the basket and as you said get some assists and playmaking going by attacking could really help. 

But, his perimeter shot is historically bad to this point in his career. I want him taking less perimeter shots, far less, not more. He's been really bad from the outside, like shooting multiple airballs bad. Not even close on his shots. 

I am talking about Cupps not Gunn - never mentioned Gunn :)

Very much agree with your take on Gunn

[BGleas 7,880]

21 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

I am talking about Cupps not Gunn - never mentioned Gunn :)

Very much agree with your take on Gunn

Ugh, my bad! I was reading too fast. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 83,981]

Ouch.  The truth hurts.

[JSHoosier 19,826]

3 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Ouch.  The truth hurts.

He showed why he didn't get much time here. 0 points and almost as many TOs as rebounds.