IUBB @ Michigan State - Tuesday, 2/21/23 @ 9:00 on ESPN

[HoosierFan1994 4,746]

Not sure this one loss hurts IU outside of maybe a double bye in the BTT. I am more upset they blew a 9 point lead. Lot's of teams on the 3-5 seed line lost as well.

1) TJD did look tired. Hopefully this isn't a recurring thing. Might be smart to get his minutes in the low 30's the next few weeks before March Madness starts. Then you can really play him 36 plus minutes. 

2) I don't like to "bash" on players at all. I'm sure Tamar Bates is a great person. But right now, he has no business being on the court. He missed a floater a few feet from the basket in the first half. Michigan State turned around and scored in fast break. It just seems like when he makes a mistake it really really costs this team. I hate it because I thought he would either be the 2 or 3/6th man this year. 

3) Woodson has to figure the bench out. Most teams go 7/8 deep in March. Right now I don't trust anyone outside of Reneau/Banks. Yes, getting X back will be huge. I just felt Geronimo didn't give us much in the front court. Why Kaleb Banks isn't playing more is beyond me. When he entered the game in the 2nd half IU made a really nice run. He may not score but I felt on defense he does a good job...bottom line is starters got IU a 9 point lead and once the reserves came in that lead vanished (Yes, Woodson should have left Jalen in.)

4) That being said...not time to hit the panic button. Not even close. As 007 said this is the best time of the year. It's hard to win on the road in the Big Ten (But not in any other conference; look at Kansas on Monday and Providence last night..) Interested to see how the Purdue game goes. Would LOVE to win that one. If not, finish strong at home and let's see where they are at in the Big Ten Tournament. 

[Chris007 44,066]

3 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

Not sure this one loss hurts IU outside of maybe a double bye in the BTT. I am more upset they blew a 9 point lead. Lot's of teams on the 3-5 seed line lost as well.

1) TJD did look tired. Hopefully this isn't a recurring thing. Might be smart to get his minutes in the low 30's the next few weeks before March Madness starts. Then you can really play him 36 plus minutes. 

2) I don't like to "bash" on players at all. I'm sure Tamar Bates is a great person. But right now, he has no business being on the court. He missed a floater a few feet from the basket in the first half. Michigan State turned around and scored in fast break. It just seems like when he makes a mistake it really really costs this team. I hate it because I thought he would either be the 2 or 3/6th man this year. 

3) Woodson has to figure the bench out. Most teams go 7/8 deep in March. Right now I don't trust anyone outside of Reneau/Banks. Yes, getting X back will be huge. I just felt Geronimo didn't give us much in the front court. Why Kaleb Banks isn't playing more is beyond me. When he entered the game in the 2nd half IU made a really nice run. He may not score but I felt on defense he does a good job...bottom line is starters got IU a 9 point lead and once the reserves came in that lead vanished (Yes, Woodson should have left Jalen in.)

4) That being said...not time to hit the panic button. Not even close. As 007 said this is the best time of the year. It's hard to win on the road in the Big Ten (But not in any other conference; look at Kansas on Monday and Providence last night..) Interested to see how the Purdue game goes. Would LOVE to win that one. If not, finish strong at home and let's see where they are at in the Big Ten Tournament. 

I read somewhere this morning, maybe on here that the Big Ten is 6-27 on the road this month. It's hard to win on the road this time of year. 

[Uspshoosier 45,686]

38 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I read somewhere this morning, maybe on here that the Big Ten is 6-27 on the road this month. It's hard to win on the road this time of year. 

It’s hard to win on the road at tournament quality teams.    Really no easy ones to where a team can get right.    Outside of Minny every road game is against tournament quality team or one that is in the hunt.   Nebraska is showing that it’s tough for tournament teams to get a win.  It’s like that every where.  Last night was the first night thst teams in the top 4 of the Big East standings lost a home game.  Xavier losing and Creighton losing were the first 2 home losses for top 4 big east teams.     Good or bad people are going to vent after every IU loss.  It is what it is.   Nothing anyone says is going to change that.    I could say enjoy the first year in 6 or 7 years where IU is going to be in home whites for a ncaa tournament games but doesn’t mean people will.   You could say enjoy the fact that this team has done a great job battling back after losing their starting 6 year point guard for all of the B1G season and putting themselves to finish with a winning conference record still(something the program hasn’t done  in 6 years) or a double bye but to some that won’t matter.    I have started to learn to just let people vent and let them enjoy or not enjoy IU’s journey each year.    

[Stuhoo 80,877]

27 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

It’s hard to win on the road at tournament quality teams.    Really no easy ones to where a team can get right.    Outside of Minny every road game is against tournament quality team or one that is in the hunt.   Nebraska is showing that it’s tough for tournament teams to get a win.  It’s like that every where.  Last night was the first night thst teams in the top 4 of the Big East standings lost a home game.  Xavier losing and Creighton losing were the first 2 home losses for top 4 big east teams.     Good or bad people are going to vent after every IU loss.  It is what it is.   Nothing anyone says is going to change that.    I could say enjoy the first year in 6 or 7 years where IU is going to be in home whites for a ncaa tournament games but doesn’t mean people will.   You could say enjoy the fact that this team has done a great job battling back after losing their starting 6 year point guard for all of the B1G season and putting themselves to finish with a winning conference record still(something the program hasn’t done  in 6 years) or a double bye but to some that won’t matter.    I have started to learn to just let people vent and let them enjoy or not enjoy IU’s journey each year.    

I think you could say you kinda said it. lol

[HoosierFan1994 4,746]

26 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

It’s hard to win on the road at tournament quality teams.    Really no easy ones to where a team can get right.    Outside of Minny every road game is against tournament quality team or one that is in the hunt.   Nebraska is showing that it’s tough for tournament teams to get a win.  It’s like that every where.  Last night was the first night thst teams in the top 4 of the Big East standings lost a home game.  Xavier losing and Creighton losing were the first 2 home losses for top 4 big east teams.     Good or bad people are going to vent after every IU loss.  It is what it is.   Nothing anyone says is going to change that.    I could say enjoy the first year in 6 or 7 years where IU is going to be in home whites for a ncaa tournament games but doesn’t mean people will.   You could say enjoy the fact that this team has done a great job battling back after losing their starting 6 year point guard for all of the B1G season and putting themselves to finish with a winning conference record still(something the program hasn’t done  in 6 years) or a double bye but to some that won’t matter.    I have started to learn to just let people vent and let them enjoy or not enjoy IU’s journey each year.    

Thank goodness the NCAA tournament is a neutral site. 

[str8baller 5,255]

2 hours ago, AKHoosier said:

Woof. And this is supposed to be the good year.

Whatever. I'm chalking this up to the guys being gassed, and already knowing they're in the tournament. 

Just hold serve at home to not let our seeding fall below a 5. 

“Good” is relative to our recent history. We were something like 14 in preseason rankings. That’s a 4 seed. We’re most likely going to be a 4/5 seed.  That’s pretty much up to expectations.  
 

 

[HoosierFan1994 4,746]

4 minutes ago, str8baller said:

“Good” is relative to our recent history. We were something like 14 in preseason rankings. That’s a 4 seed. We’re most likely going to be a 4/5 seed.  That’s pretty much up to expectations.  
 

 

Yep. I don't think anyone on here thought this was a National Title Contender. I think this team could make a final four run IF they are at full strength/we get a good draw. Right now this is a Sweet 16/Round of 32 team. Would I like them to go beyond that? Yes. But they're meeting expectations without one of their best players. My hope is that we have some postseason success to attract more talent in the transfer portal/recruiting trail. 

[AKHoosier 6,923]

14 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

Yep. I don't think anyone on here thought this was a National Title Contender. I think this team could make a final four run IF they are at full strength/we get a good draw. Right now this is a Sweet 16/Round of 32 team. Would I like them to go beyond that? Yes. But they're meeting expectations without one of their best players. My hope is that we have some postseason success to attract more talent in the transfer portal/recruiting trail. 

Seems like we're saying the same thing. Before the season, I didn't see us much differently than UNC last year, and they made the title game as an 8 seed. Obviously it's all dependent on matchups.

We have 2 guys who are shooting 50%+ from 3pt, a five star guard in JHS, and one of the best big men in the game.

Xavier Johnson's injury factors into this a ton, as he would be probably the best PG in the B1G right now. He certainly was playing like it toward the end of last year.

I'll die on this hill. From a talent/experience perspective, I think we're right there to make a run.

[HoosierFan1994 4,746]

16 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

Seems like we're saying the same thing. Before the season, I didn't see us much differently than UNC last year, and they made the title game as an 8 seed. Obviously it's all dependent on matchups.

We have 2 guys who are shooting 50%+ from 3pt, a five star guard in JHS, and one of the best big men in the game.

Xavier Johnson's injury factors into this a ton, as he would be probably the best PG in the B1G right now. He certainly was playing like it toward the end of last year.

I'll die on this hill. From a talent/experience perspective, I think we're right there to make a run.

I think IU would be 12-5 with Johnson right now. As far as a run I'd like to see this lineup in the tournament

JHS

X

Miller

Race

Trayce

Bench: Trey, Malik, Kaleb

It's just hard to say how far this team could go. If they get a 4 or a 5 seed and get Kansas in the Sweet 16, I don't feel very good. However, I could see them beating a team like Alabama. 

[Hardwood83 4,774]

IU has some talent and the culture of the team has obviously improved under Woodson, but still missing some pieces. MSU was emotionally charged for sure, but they are a slightly above mediocre team. IU needed to say "Sorry you had a tragedy on your campus, but we're winning this game." Instead they wilted and the bench no-showed. TJD looked human and almost everyone else appeared to mail it in.  Clearly not tough enough to bring it every night. Could be over-looked if it hadn't happened half a dozen times before. Sigh. 

[LamarCheeks 18,943]

At one time, Geronimo had a little bit of perimeter game -- he was no Roth or Zeisloft, but he could knock down a 3 every now and then. Was better than Race, anyway. 

Last night, he had a couple times where he was outside the arc and his defender was laying off him a bit. Can't figure why he didn't take those shots. 

[RoadRage 1,852]

I’m not the least bit surprised IU lost last night. Like happens so many times, we could not have caught MSU at a worse time. Very emotional game for them and winning that game was just not likely for a team that has the depth issues this one has! Our bench is not giving us much and that is a recruiting problem that is going to really get ugly next season! 

[Aaron 4,293]

This season feels so much like 2011-2012.

After a few bad seasons each team got of to a good start with a massive road win (2012 win at Xavier, 2023 wins at NC State). Conference play is up and down where team is dominant at home except for one fluke loss (Minnesota in 2012, NW in 2023). With only a couple exceptions, both teams struggle mightily on the road in conference (the exception being at Illinois this year and at Purdue in 2012 as both squads only won otherwise at a bad Minnesota team and beat middling PSU in 2012 and Michigan 2023). Also, both teams lost 80-65 on the road at MSU if you want strangest connection. Also, each upset a hated rival at home who was no. 1 at time (UK in 2012, PU in 2023)    

Both will be around the four or five line in NCAA Tourney with shot at Sweet 16. Was hoping for better but I'll take it after last few seasons. 

The only big difference though is that in 2011-2012 we had the worst women's team at IU of all time (6-24) and this year have the best one of all-time it appears (26-1). For that reason only, this winter exceeds 2011-2012 for IU basketball as on the men's side its basically the same thing. 

[Whoozhers 3,690]

It’s understandable but….Race was much better pre injury. He’s at best a shell of himself for the most part.

A for effort though.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,674]

1 hour ago, LamarCheeks said:

At one time, Geronimo had a little bit of perimeter game -- he was no Roth or Zeisloft, but he could knock down a 3 every now and then. Was better than Race, anyway. 

Last night, he had a couple times where he was outside the arc and his defender was laying off him a bit. Can't figure why he didn't take those shots. 

Honestly, I thought we looked better with Geronimo in the starting lineup and for the most part, he looked much more confident. He's looked pretty bad since Race went back to starting. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,983]

1 hour ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

I think IU would be 12-5 with Johnson right now. As far as a run I'd like to see this lineup in the tournament

JHS

X

Miller

Race

Trayce

Bench: Trey, Malik, Kaleb

It's just hard to say how far this team could go. If they get a 4 or a 5 seed and get Kansas in the Sweet 16, I don't feel very good. However, I could see them beating a team like Alabama. 

I don't want to be that broken record guy but it's kinda hard to avoid. I like Kaleb's upside but the shiny new thing seems to always rear its head. He has barely played. He has shown good flashes, especially the energy, almost no one else played with energy last night. But JG has shown exceptional contributions in extended time including, particularly, our strongest run this season when we were beating teams by 13-plus. Then he got injured. Then he has been slowly brought back and hasn't played great. But no, you don't write him off for that, and to call for a frosh who's had limited minutes is just that, to call for a frosh who's had limited minutes. Meanwhile, Race was God awful for much of last night, far from rebounds, watched players grab the ball and run down the court, and looked as lethargic as anyone. We have pieces on this team that include Race, JG and at times Banks, and I think the fairest statement is that it's up to the staff to identify when one of them is not playing hard or well and to insert the other guy(s) to up the team's play. My issue is that happens at best sporadically. 

So this doesn't come across too negatively, I'd add one thing I liked seeing last night was some tinkering with the forwards -- there were some minutes when TJD, Malik and JG played together, that was 1st half when we were doing ok, and I think (but would have to go back and check as not sure) there was also a lineup in the 1st with TJD, Race and JG, or maybe it was Malik, Race and JG. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,189]

1 hour ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

I think IU would be 12-5 with Johnson right now. As far as a run I'd like to see this lineup in the tournament

JHS

X

Miller

Race

Trayce

Bench: Trey, Malik, Kaleb

It's just hard to say how far this team could go. If they get a 4 or a 5 seed and get Kansas in the Sweet 16, I don't feel very good. However, I could see them beating a team like Alabama. 

I'd say 12-5 at minimum. 

The lineup you mentioned is who we started the season with, so that makes sense. 

I like your bench. 

Bates might supplement Kalebs few mins if we need shooting and Miller is in foul trouble? Otherwise I think we roll with 7. 

Pray XJ can play 25mpg, soon. 

[HoosierFan1994 4,746]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I'd say 12-5 at minimum. 

The lineup you mentioned is who we started the season with, so that makes sense. 

I like your bench. 

Bates might supplement Kalebs few mins if we need shooting and Miller is in foul trouble? Otherwise I think we roll with 7. 

Pray XJ can play 25mpg, soon. 

For me, Bates' minutes are determined how well he's playing when he enters the game. He had a few chances last night...fell down on what would have been an easy two points and missed a floater. 

[Dave from Dayton 3,226]

I liked the start of the game.  Except that IU had some problem finishing a couple of shots (ie TJD).  Then all of a sudden their 3 point shots started to drop.  (And Galloway was notably helping defend the wrong player.) Those lost opportunities underneath really hurt.  And our defense went awol.  And Shifino got pulled because of 2 fouls.

We came back in the 2nd half only to trip and allow MSU to do what they wanted.  Clearly TJD was out of gas and needed a break late in the first half.  

We did not do well in any of the statistics lines.  Not one.

The bench was soft.  And MSU was motivated.  

IU has quite a few times dug itself out of a hole.  Not last night.

How about if we POTFB!

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,189]

Just now, HoosierFan1994 said:

For me, Bates' minutes are determined how well he's playing when he enters the game. He had a few chances last night...fell down on what would have been an easy two points and missed a floater. 

I'm saying ... 1min-1.5min spurts JUST to get us by... wouldn't even consider him "in the rotation" in my book. But, he can shoot, and teams respect it more importantly. 

This is all with the idea XJ can give you 20-25. 

But, I think the top 7 are going to take the vast majority of mins, when we/if XJ can get to that point. 

But, I could also see situations where.. Kaleb is used to defend a big 3/help with reb, as well.