They Fired Tom Allen!

[Lebowski]

17 hours ago, JSHoosier said:

I'd prefer we cross that bridge if/when we came to it.  At least than we'd have something to try and sell and build off of.

So your expectations for IUFB is bowl eligibility every year? 

And if this year's IUFB team goes bowling and wins said bowl; those advocating the termination of CTA still want him gone? Follow up questions, if you still think he should go, what are your expectations for IUFB? If you think he shouldn't go, is it as simple as bowl or bust for you?

Keep in mind this program has only been bowling 13 times in 136 years. 

[Hovadipo]

4 hours ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Which makes it even more important for us to move on, where we'd have less competition for a decent coach, like Kane Wommack. He's been here, he's seen you can have success here, he's seen you can recruit here, and (provided he paid attention at least to a the first couple of games the season after he left) he's seen fans will show up. He's going to get a better job than South Alabama so why not take that shot?

I would LOVE this, but can’t see it happening if Tom is fired. He and the Wommacks, especially Kane’s dad, are really tight. 

[craigyv88]

37 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. 

So a bowl qualification for only the eleventh time (four of those being coached by CTA - 36% of IUFBs total bowl count) and winning only its fourth in IUFBs 136 year history would still want you to remove a coach that actually accomplished this for the program. Read that sentence again. 

I'm not clear on your expectations for IUFB but I'm under the assumption based on your response that your expectations is maybe something like an Iowa; where bowl appearances, winning more than 7 games is a consistency, every now and then top 20 rankings and in a conference championship race? If that's the case, that has never happened under any coach throughout IUFB's entire 136 years of existence. Read that last sentence again. The winningest coach in program history, Bob McMillin, had 7 winning seasons out of 14 and was not consistent. Those 7 win seasons were ebb and flow and spread out throughout his career. If it's just you want a team that 'plays consistent, competitive, smart, and fun to watch' than I've got nothing for ya because all of that is completely subjective. For example, I think this season alone IUFB has played consistent, competitive, smart, and I have enjoyed watching them. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to terminate CTA. But that's just me. I mean the most consistent thing IUFB has been the last 6 years is having a head coach with bowl appearances multiple times. 

I get it though. All of us probably get it. All of us want a coach that will come in and create something magical that we've never had in 136 years. But a coach that does that will not coach here for 4 years yet alone 14 years. A coach that accomplishes bowl consistency here at IUFB is getting hired somewhere else because that coach will not stay at a historically bad school like IUFB. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless. Unless, of course there's a coach that considers IUFB a dream job.

I understand where you're coming from on all that. I'm thinking perhaps more stylistically rather than in terms of bowl qualification by any way possible, but playing any 13th game has basically been the specific goal at IU as long as I can recall.  I absolutely understand.  

I may have been all over the place previously and I don't think Iowa is really a comp for what I'm getting at, and after thinking more I'll give a much better example of my expectation and why I believe it's quite obtainable.  That's because we had it, and not long ago at all.  Give me 2014-16 IU football back.  The 2015 team was 6-6, went to about as cool of a bowl game as a 6-win team can (imo), had a top-25 offense, and was a 4th down stop against top-15 Michigan and any one of about ten things not happening vs Rutgers away from being 8-4.  In addition, they took #1 Ohio State to the final play of the game with both Nate Sudfeld and Jordan Howard injured in the 2nd half, and beat a really solid Jeff Brohm-coached Western KY team that won 12 games that year.  I will take that every single year at IU, plus or minus a win here and there.  Further, the IU team before that won a road game against a team that went to the SEC title game, and the IU team after went back to another bowl game.

I'm keeping it strictly on-field here as I don't know confirmed details about off the field stuff with KW and I'm not opining for him to return.  But strictly from an on-field perspective I think those years made for a better program, or certainly one I enjoyed and could get behind more.  Agree with you in that it's definitely subjective to an extent.  

Also, I would point to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Kansas.  All schools without traditional football success, or very little anyway, who have it going pretty well currently.  They seemed to make coaching moves as needed until they got it right, and if he leaves, he leaves.  Even Vanderbilt had James Franklin for a while.  It's on the admin to make another good hire if a guy makes an upward move and continue building.  Cutcliffe eventually was out at Duke and they turned around and immediately made another good hire in Mike Elko.  I refuse to believe that status is off limits to IU.  

[Lebowski]

On 9/18/2023 at 4:36 PM, craigyv88 said:

I understand where you're coming from on all that. I'm thinking perhaps more stylistically rather than in terms of bowl qualification by any way possible, but playing any 13th game has basically been the specific goal at IU as long as I can recall.  I absolutely understand.  

I may have been all over the place previously and I don't think Iowa is really a comp for what I'm getting at, and after thinking more I'll give a much better example of my expectation and why I believe it's quite obtainable.  That's because we had it, and not long ago at all.  Give me 2014-16 IU football back.  The 2015 team was 6-6, went to about as cool of a bowl game as a 6-win team can (imo), had a top-25 offense, and was a 4th down stop against top-15 Michigan and any one of about ten things not happening vs Rutgers away from being 8-4.  In addition, they took #1 Ohio State to the final play of the game with both Nate Sudfeld and Jordan Howard injured in the 2nd half, and beat a really solid Jeff Brohm-coached Western KY team that won 12 games that year.  I will take that every single year at IU, plus or minus a win here and there.  Further, the IU team before that won a road game against a team that went to the SEC title game, and the IU team after went back to another bowl game.

I'm keeping it strictly on-field here as I don't know confirmed details about off the field stuff with KW and I'm not opining for him to return.  But strictly from an on-field perspective I think those years made for a better program, or certainly one I enjoyed and could get behind more.  Agree with you in that it's definitely subjective to an extent.  

Also, I would point to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Kansas.  All schools without traditional football success, or very little anyway, who have it going pretty well currently.  They seemed to make coaching moves as needed until they got it right, and if he leaves, he leaves.  Even Vanderbilt had James Franklin for a while.  It's on the admin to make another good hire if a guy makes an upward move and continue building.  Cutcliffe eventually was out at Duke and they turned around and immediately made another good hire in Mike Elko.  I refuse to believe that status is off limits to IU.  

That makes me understand you're point of view a lot more. Appreciate your response. Sounds like your wanting an offensive minded HC running the program. I'm just the opposite, I prefer a defensive mind, but that's just me. I enjoyed watching the later part of the KW era as well. It seemed like he was moving the program in the right direction.  And those last two years you are talking about, his DC was Tom Allen. All those close games you're talking about was because of a defense that was able to make a stop here or there to keep them in the game. We were going to get our points, that was for sure. But I digress. 

Also, it sounds like you're open to instability of the job in general, just so long as the IU AD makes the next hire worth a darn.  

But regardless, playing in a worthwhile bowl is the overall expectation? Or have you changed on just playing in a bowl game? Or you don't really care about bowls, you just want to see a lights out offense on the field?

Keep in mind, in the 136 year history, IUFB has reached a bowl only 13 times. 

[NashvilleHoosier]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I would LOVE this, but can’t see it happening if Tom is fired. He and the Wommacks, especially Kane’s dad, are really tight. 

Honestly I don’t see it happening regardless. I think Wommack will be a very hot commodity and even if there isn’t as much competition, I think he’ll have his choice of several programs far better than ours. 

[craigyv88]

2 hours ago, Lebowski said:

That makes me understand you're point of view a lot more. Appreciate your response. Sounds like your wanting an offensive minded HC running the program. I'm just the opposite, I prefer a defensive mind, but that's just me. I enjoyed watching the later part of the KW era as well. It seemed like he was moving the program in the right direction.  And those last two years you are talking about, his DC was Tom Allen. All those close games you're talking about was because of a defense that was able to make a stop here or there to keep them in the game. We were going to get our points, that was for sure. But I digress. 

Also, it sounds like you're open to instability of the job in general, just so long as the IU AD makes the next hire worth a darn.  

But regardless, playing in a worthwhile bowl is the overall expectation? Or have you changed on just playing in a bowl game? Or you don't really care about bowls, you just want to see a lights out offense on the field?

Keep in mind, in the 136 year history, IUFB has reached a bowl only 10 times. 

Correct, I would definitely prefer an offensive oriented team if we can only have one or the other, as I feel that better correlates to the modern college game and it's just more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.  Also I believe it's more conducive to pulling off upsets when going against the big boys.  I'm being a bit sentimental here because I simply liked the KW era better and also went to more games during that time, but the difference is almost every week I felt it was at least possible for IU to win, probably because those teams could score with anybody, and I simply don't get that feeling anymore.  KW didn't actually beat OSU, PSU, or Michigan any more than TA but I also got the sense we could at least get Harbaugh's khakis in a bunch.  It felt possible to me.

I don't think I can give you a concrete answer in terms of bowls because my expectations aren't directly linked to one.  What I want most is competitiveness every week, creativity and a dynamic offensive attack, winning/maintaining the bucket, and at least being able to scare the powerhouses and occasionally knocking one off.  From a record / bowl eligibility standpoint I guess that would land us wherever it lands us.  The disconnect between that and where the TA era has trended is that since 2020 the collective score of games against OSU, PSU, and Michigan is 259-55 and I don't feel the program is consistently achieving those other initiatives either.  Also hurts that IU is 1-7 against Maryland, Rutgers, MSU, and Purdue in that time (I like to think of those as 50/50 games).  I'd like to be wrong and we'll see how the rest of the year plays out, but I don't see things changing as-is and I simply like the potential from any of the names I mentioned previously versus the actuality of where things stand under TA.

[Scotty R]

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

[Hovadipo]

10 minutes ago, Scotty R said:

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

good point scott hadn’t thought of that

[Rico]

10 hours ago, Scotty R said:

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

Then CTA needs to hand in his resignation and not be fired.

[cbp4iu]

I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to land a Jimbo Fisher or Matt Campbell. I think both could do decent in the Big Ten. Obviously, the chances of either coming are slim to none. I know Matt Campbell is struggling now at ISU but I think he could get better athletes in the state of Indiana. 

[Lebowski]

12 hours ago, craigyv88 said:

Correct, I would definitely prefer an offensive oriented team if we can only have one or the other, as I feel that better correlates to the modern college game and it's just more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.  Also I believe it's more conducive to pulling off upsets when going against the big boys.  I'm being a bit sentimental here because I simply liked the KW era better and also went to more games during that time, but the difference is almost every week I felt it was at least possible for IU to win, probably because those teams could score with anybody, and I simply don't get that feeling anymore.  KW didn't actually beat OSU, PSU, or Michigan any more than TA but I also got the sense we could at least get Harbaugh's khakis in a bunch.  It felt possible to me.

I don't think I can give you a concrete answer in terms of bowls because my expectations aren't directly linked to one.  What I want most is competitiveness every week, creativity and a dynamic offensive attack, winning/maintaining the bucket, and at least being able to scare the powerhouses and occasionally knocking one off.  From a record / bowl eligibility standpoint I guess that would land us wherever it lands us.  The disconnect between that and where the TA era has trended is that since 2020 the collective score of games against OSU, PSU, and Michigan is 259-55 and I don't feel the program is consistently achieving those other initiatives either.  Also hurts that IU is 1-7 against Maryland, Rutgers, MSU, and Purdue in that time (I like to think of those as 50/50 games).  I'd like to be wrong and we'll see how the rest of the year plays out, but I don't see things changing as-is and I simply like the potential from any of the names I mentioned previously versus the actuality of where things stand under TA.

Keep in mind, Tom Allen came in and vastly improved the defense to help give you some of those feelings you're talking about. I never felt like IUFB was ever in a game until Allen became the DC. 

Did you enjoy the games when Kalen DeBoer was the OC and Penix was healthy?

[craigyv88]

3 hours ago, Lebowski said:

Keep in mind, Tom Allen came in and vastly improved the defense to help give you some of those feelings you're talking about. I never felt like IUFB was ever in a game until Allen became the DC. 

Did you enjoy the games when Kalen DeBoer was the OC and Penix was healthy?

You're absolutely right about Allen improving the defense once he got there, which speaks to his strength as a defensive mind and I always give him credit as much.  However he didn't get there until KW's final year in 2016.  Allen improved the team defense ranking from 117th in 2015 to 57th in 2016, but personally I feel the two best all-around teams KW had were 2014-15 which was still Brian Knorr at DC.  I mentioned my thoughts on 2015 and 2014 was also promising until Sudfeld went down.  Heck, even with freshman Zander Diamont who started spring as the 5th string QB in 2014 that team still found ways to move the ball down the field (Tevin Coleman helped a lot there) and that team had a second half lead on the road at eventual national champion OSU with Diamont at QB.  Additionally, by 2015 IU had 11 future NFL roster guys, 7-8 of which were on the two-deep.  That's pretty impressive for IU and that was all pre-TA.

Regarding DeBoer and Penix, we know now how special of a duo that is but we experienced an incredibly small sample size of it.  DeBoer was a fantastic hire by Allen but we only had him for 2019 and Penix was only healthy enough to start 6 of the 13 games that year.  I did enjoy 2019 but the best wins were at 5-7 Nebraska and at 5-7 Maryland, and I definitely recall being miserable in the stands surrounded by drunk Buckeye and Wolverine fans while we were getting beat down by those teams because we simply couldn't compete.

[Lebowski]

21 minutes ago, craigyv88 said:

You're absolutely right about Allen improving the defense once he got there, which speaks to his strength as a defensive mind and I always give him credit as much.  However he didn't get there until KW's final year in 2016.  Allen improved the team defense ranking from 117th in 2015 to 57th in 2016, but personally I feel the two best all-around teams KW had were 2014-15 which was still Brian Knorr at DC.  I mentioned my thoughts on 2015 and 2014 was also promising until Sudfeld went down.  Heck, even with freshman Zander Diamont who started spring as the 5th string QB in 2014 that team still found ways to move the ball down the field (Tevin Coleman helped a lot there) and that team had a second half lead on the road at eventual national champion OSU with Diamont at QB.  Additionally, by 2015 IU had 11 future NFL roster guys, 7-8 of which were on the two-deep.  That's pretty impressive for IU and that was all pre-TA.

Regarding DeBoer and Penix, we know now how special of a duo that is but we experienced an incredibly small sample size of it.  DeBoer was a fantastic hire by Allen but we only had him for 2019 and Penix was only healthy enough to start 6 of the 13 games that year.  I did enjoy 2019 but the best wins were at 5-7 Nebraska and at 5-7 Maryland, and I definitely recall being miserable in the stands surrounded by drunk Buckeye and Wolverine fans while we were getting beat down by those teams because we simply couldn't compete.

So you didn't enjoy watching the best offenses CTA ever had? I'm confused. Because you say that you prefer offensive type games. I would think you enjoyed those two years at least. 

[craigyv88]

I did like the offense in 2019 and 2020.  But in terms of the best offenses in recent IU memory, both of TA's predecessors had years that were as good or better than 2019-20 and when looking at whole tenures both put notably better offenses out on average.  2019 was the best offense under TA at a total team ranking of 42nd in FBS, while that mark was surpassed twice under Wilson and also once under Bill Lynch.  That includes two top-25 offenses with Wilson.  

The bottom falls out after 2020 and some of the worst offenses under Lynch and Wilson were not markedly different than the average offensive ranking of 82nd under TA.  Also, over the course of 2012-2016 Wilson’s offense led the conference in passing yards per game, was second in total yards per game, and third in points per game.

[RaceToTheTop]

IU football is both boring and bad.  Horrible combination.

[Lebowski]

17 hours ago, craigyv88 said:

I did like the offense in 2019 and 2020.  But in terms of the best offenses in recent IU memory, both of TA's predecessors had years that were as good or better than 2019-20 and when looking at whole tenures both put notably better offenses out on average.  2019 was the best offense under TA at a total team ranking of 42nd in FBS, while that mark was surpassed twice under Wilson and also once under Bill Lynch.  That includes two top-25 offenses with Wilson.  

The bottom falls out after 2020 and some of the worst offenses under Lynch and Wilson were not markedly different than the average offensive ranking of 82nd under TA.  Also, over the course of 2012-2016 Wilson’s offense led the conference in passing yards per game, was second in total yards per game, and third in points per game.

Well, I'm glad you were at least entertained during the time IUFB won 8 games one year and finished ranked 16th overall in the country the other. That's all I was asking in the grand scheme of things. 

Regarding your ranking screenshots, football is a team game. What you're showing me is that BL and KW weren't balanced compared to TA. I'll say it again, CTA's winning record is better than the other two coaches you brought up here. But I certainly understand your preference with an offensive coach calling the shots.

[craigyv88]

1 hour ago, Lebowski said:

Well, I'm glad you were at least entertained during the time IUFB won 8 games one year and finished ranked 16th overall in the country the other. That's all I was asking in the grand scheme of things. 

Regarding your ranking screenshots, football is a team game. What you're showing me is that BL and KW weren't balanced compared to TA. I'll say it again, CTA's winning record is better than the other two coaches you brought up here. But I certainly understand your preference with an offensive coach calling the shots.

CTA's win pct is indeed better, but that also implies that you are what your record says you are.  That's not always the case.  I do appreciate 2019-20 but it has to be kept in proper context.  The 8 teams IU beat in 2019 had a combined record of 25-71 for a win pct of only 0.26, and none won more than 5 games.  Also, 2019 IU was annihilated by both OSU and Michigan.  KW nor BL ever had a season with a pathway to 8 wins like that, and I feel multiple KW teams could have done the same and possibly better if given the same runway of beatable teams.  Still a very nice season, and indicative of what can happen with a good offense and actually getting a scheduling break for once. 

2020 was a little better in terms of strength of victories, but opt outs, no spring ball, and no crowds seemed to level things out some and helped IU.  Especially with PSU not having Micah Parsons and MSU and RU both having 1st year coaches with very little time to prepare.  Very odd year and to me the further we get away from it, the less special it was.  If you feel different that's cool.

Outside of those two seasons, I've found CTA's teams to be frustrating, undisciplined, and too limited offensively.  I could also do without the CTA shtick and bravado.  His teams are a little more balanced as you pointed out, problem being though they were balanced outside the top-100 in both offense and defense for two straight years and currently are at 115th in offense this year.  If you have found a way to enjoy IU football from 2021 to now I respect that and more power to you.  But in the words of Hulk Hogan, that don't work for me brother. 

[TTT]

In the grand scheme of IU football tradition.  Relax.  Criticize all you want but let T.A. contract run it s duration (for 2 or 3 years more).  A new coach no matter who…including pretty much anyone and everyone that might take the job gives about the same odds of winning as T.A. =  50%.  (recently the coaches were here kinda in an unorthodoxed way because T.A. Was already head coach) DeBoer, Womack and player Penix.  IU was excellent training ground for each of them.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

15 minutes ago, TTT said:

In the grand scheme of IU football tradition.  Relax.  Criticize all you want but let T.A. contract run it s duration (for 2 or 3 years more).  A new coach no matter who…including pretty much anyone and everyone that might take the job gives about the same odds of winning as T.A. =  50%.  (recently the coaches were here kinda in an unorthodoxed way because T.A. Was already head coach) DeBoer, Womack and player Penix.  IU was excellent training ground for each of them.

Give Tom Allen more time to embarrass the program?

[Lebowski]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:51 PM, craigyv88 said:

CTA's win pct is indeed better, but that also implies that you are what your record says you are.  That's not always the case.  I do appreciate 2019-20 but it has to be kept in proper context.  The 8 teams IU beat in 2019 had a combined record of 25-71 for a win pct of only 0.26, and none won more than 5 games.  Also, 2019 IU was annihilated by both OSU and Michigan.  KW nor BL ever had a season with a pathway to 8 wins like that, and I feel multiple KW teams could have done the same and possibly better if given the same runway of beatable teams.  Still a very nice season, and indicative of what can happen with a good offense and actually getting a scheduling break for once. 

2020 was a little better in terms of strength of victories, but opt outs, no spring ball, and no crowds seemed to level things out some and helped IU.  Especially with PSU not having Micah Parsons and MSU and RU both having 1st year coaches with very little time to prepare.  Very odd year and to me the further we get away from it, the less special it was.  If you feel different that's cool.

Outside of those two seasons, I've found CTA's teams to be frustrating, undisciplined, and too limited offensively.  I could also do without the CTA shtick and bravado.  His teams are a little more balanced as you pointed out, problem being though they were balanced outside the top-100 in both offense and defense for two straight years and currently are at 115th in offense this year.  If you have found a way to enjoy IU football from 2021 to now I respect that and more power to you.  But in the words of Hulk Hogan, that don't work for me brother. 

That's cool man. I really enjoyed those two seasons. They were beating teams that good teams are supposed to beat. Getting national attention. The defense was ranked in the top 20! It's a rarity for IUFB to accomplish that kind of stuff. For me, it was cloud nine seeing offenses struggle against the blitz packages etc. etc.. I really enjoyed Justin Fields getting exposed for his inability to handle the various types of blitz packages we threw at him. Cloud nine stuff for me, man. Cloud nine. 

But all of that doesn't matter because here we are in a thread titled Fire Tom Allen. Personally, I would have liked to see him succeed even more than he already did but I also know the overall history of the program. I also feel your frustrations with him. His loyalty to a coach drove me nuts! Because it ultimately might be the reason he's terminated. I am ok with whatever decision is made regarding his future. Honestly, I am.