2022-2023 IUBB Roster Projection

[Brass Cannon]

20 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Yes, he has the raw talent. But he doesn't have the the shooting or ball handling skills to play the 3. Is it possible he could acquire those skills between now and when the season starts? Possible, yes. Likely? Probably not. That is a short period of time to acquire skills most players work on for years. We'll see. I'm sure the coaches are willing to give him a shot at it.

Neither of the guys we are bringing in are exactly lights out shooters.  

[PB1230]

14 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

JG doesn't need an entirely different skillset to be better at the 3 than Kopp.  He's a better defender and rebounder and is better at getting to the rim already.  He's a worse ballhandler and shooter, but it's not lot Kopp was good at dishing assists and he didn't shoot well last year.  I'm not sure the what Kopp gave us in ballhandling and shooting was any better than what JG added in other departments.

In terms of Dennis being a 36% career three point shooter, that's all backloaded.  He shot 40% as a freshman and 33.6% his sophomore and junior years.  I'm not sure his shooting from 2018-9 is real relevant now.....the same as his free throw shooting.  As a freshman he shot 66%.  Since then, he's been at 85, 80 and 79.  As a freshman he was a good three point shooter and crummy free throw shooter.  He's spent the next three seasons as a mediocre three point shooter and very good free throw shooter.  At this point, that's what he is -- a mediocre three point shooter and very good free throw shooter.  

But put the three point shooting aside -- he's not a good shooter inside the arc either.  His percentages over the past four years from inside the arc has been 40%, 37%, 41%, and 43%.  Those aren't good marks.

JG is a better post defender than Kopp is as a wing/perimeter defender, but Kopp is a much better wing/perimeter defender as JG really struggled defending outside the post. And yes JG is a vastly better rebounder IN THE PAINT where he can us his ability to elevate, but rebounding from the 3 spot is more about getting to loose balls in space, so moving JG to the 3 negates a lot of his rebounding ability. And JG is better around the rim, while getting to the rim requires ball handling ability that he does not have, and JG won't spend much time around the rim at the 3, so again you negate a lot of his ability

[PB1230]

10 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Again, IF JG is intent on leaving I'm fine with Dennis coming in.  His defense does make him a viable option.  I'm just not keen on bringing him in at the expense of having someone leave that wasn't set to.

I don't think anyone is advocating pushing JG out. I think the staff is only still recruiting as an insurance policy in case someone leaves

[RaceToTheTop]

I have no idea what people are seeing when they say that Kopp is a better wing defender than JG.  JG not playing the 3 has nothing to do with his ability to defend.  Miller gets beat off the dribble quite often and doesn't have the foot speed to stay with 3's once he's beat.  Being a willing defender doesn't make you a good defender.  Kopp was willing but at best an average defender.  And give JG any a minute amount of experience there and he's worlds better than Kopp.

What JG lacks in experience defensively at the three he makes up for in athleticism.  When he's beaten off the dribble, he has the catch up speed and length to make up space.  Kopp can't.

In terms of rebounding, yes, he would lose some  rebounds moving to the 3 but at 6'6" he was bringing in rebounds at a greater rate than Race and TJD were.  It wasn't just about him being a 4 that was brought in rebounds.  Athletes pull in rebounds regardless of position....the guy that we aren't potentially bringing in -- Dexter Dennis -- averaged 5 rebounds per game.  Kopp killed us there, pulling in just 2 1/2 per game.

The issue is ball handling and shooting.  It's not defense.

[RaceToTheTop]

14 minutes ago, PB1230 said:

I don't think anyone is advocating pushing JG out. I think the staff is only still recruiting as an insurance policy in case someone leaves

They are bringing in both Dennis and McNeil for visits, so I would say it's more than an insurance policy.  I am positive those two are viewing the visit as such.  Honestly, it would be pretty shitty of IU to bring them in and tell them that they aren't welcome.  My assumption is that you are only going to get guys who are in the transfer portal to visit if they already know a spot is available should they want to commit.

[RaceToTheTop]

24 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Neither of the guys we are bringing in are exactly lights out shooters.  

McNeil is the better of the two, but I'm not sure he adds much beyond shooting.  My opinion is that McNeil is a shorter version of Kopp and Dennis is a taller and little better version of Phinisee.  I think McNeil is better than Kopp in that he'd play the 2 where rebounding is typically less important and I think Dennis has a higher ceiling than Phin.

[PB1230]

3 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

They are bringing in both Dennis and McNeil for visits, so I would say it's more than an insurance policy.  I am positive those two are viewing the visit as such.  Honestly, it would be pretty shitty of IU to bring them in and tell them that they aren't welcome.  My assumption is that you are only going to get guys who are in the transfer portal to visit if they already know a spot is available should they want to commit.

Recruits/transfers always know that there may or may not be a position for them, if not taken by a current player staying, it could easily be taken by another recruit before they get a chance to visit. As long as the staff is honest about the situation, they will understand.

There was a spot open when the visits for Dennis/McNeil were scheduled. They likely knew that each other as well as Reneau were visiting, but only one technically open spot. The staff could have told them we are currently full after the Renau commitment but that they were still welcome to come as there was a chance another spot could open up. From there, Dennis/McNeil are free to do as they like. And unless its eating up another timeslot that they could visit elsewhere, it doesn't hurt them to come.

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, mbredenk101 said:

I don't know.....the college game has changed. Get as much talent as possible with all 13. We saw what it looked like when we were 5 players down at NW. If practices are packed with talent, it just makes everyone better. However, someone has to be the worst out of 13. Maybe LD is the better example of this than Leal. LD didn't even play in that game at NW.

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No team plays 11-13 players and most only play a 7-8 man rotation.  Just look at the final four teams and I don't think any of them had 13 scholarship players.

[HoosierInParadise]

No team plays 11-13 players and most only play a 7-8 man rotation.  Just look at the final four teams and I don't think any of them had 13 scholarship players.

I understand that. On the other hand, 13 are given for a reason. If it only takes 7-8 talented players then only allow schools to use 8 and the rest can be walk-ons. If we are given 13 in a climate where players can transfer so much, why not get the most talented 13 you can get?

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[Brass Cannon]

21 minutes ago, mbredenk101 said:

I understand that. On the other hand, 13 are given for a reason. If it only takes 7-8 talented players then only allow schools to use 8 and the rest can be walk-ons. If we are given 13 in a climate where players can transfer so much, why not get the most talented 13 you can get?

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Because while you are only using 8-9 any given year the other 4 will hopefully work their way into that cadre of 8-9 as they grow and develop 

[IU Scott]

26 minutes ago, mbredenk101 said:

I understand that. On the other hand, 13 are given for a reason. If it only takes 7-8 talented players then only allow schools to use 8 and the rest can be walk-ons. If we are given 13 in a climate where players can transfer so much, why not get the most talented 13 you can get?

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Because there is no way 13 4 or 5 star players will be willing to sit at the end of the bench. You should have the 11-13 players be guys like Leal who might develop their last couple of years and who are happy to be on the team.

[MikeRoberts]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

This has been referenced a fair amount... why was the NW a game LD should have played? We still had our top 3 front court guys in that game. 

When Michael Penix got hurt in football we didnt substitute the best LBer in for him... we used the next QB. 

LD didn't play in that game because he wasn't needed anymore in that one, then he was the rest of the games. The players ahead of him still played. 

No… our front court played the entire 40 minutes and was gassed despite their being a scholarship player on the bench available.

the guards got a breather, from a walk on…

Not sure why that is hard to comprehend - our front court NEVER played the entire game before or after that, they usually get a breather and could have that game but coach opted to run them into the ground vs put Logan Duncomb in even for 1 play

[HoosierInParadise]

Because while you are only using 8-9 any given year the other 4 will hopefully work their way into that cadre of 8-9 as they grow and develop 

Until the 4 transfer due to lack of playing time. Do you think the days of sitting on the bench for 3 years, and working your butt off in practice, while hoping that you play a little your senior year are over? I do understand what you are saying, just wondering if that thinking has now passed us by?

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[HoosierHoopster]

5 hours ago, go iu bb said:

Do you know that he's saying that to the coaching staff and they are begging him to stay? Or is it all just message board fodder? Last year he did put his name into the portal along with 1/2 the team since his coach was fired and at that time his family wanted him closer to home. It's probable that they still want that but is it known that JG is thinking of leaving? He hasn't entered the portal this season.

It’s message board fodder and honestly it gets old

[Brass Cannon]

19 minutes ago, mbredenk101 said:

Until the 4 transfer due to lack of playing time. Do you think the days of sitting on the bench for 3 years, and working your butt off in practice, while hoping that you play a little your senior year are over? I do understand what you are saying, just wondering if that thinking has now passed us by?

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Then let them transfer.  But the hope is they develop and earn PT in their later seasons 

[HoosierHoopster]

1 hour ago, RaceToTheTop said:

I have no idea what people are seeing when they say that Kopp is a better wing defender than JG.  JG not playing the 3 has nothing to do with his ability to defend.  Miller gets beat off the dribble quite often and doesn't have the foot speed to stay with 3's once he's beat.  Being a willing defender doesn't make you a good defender.  Kopp was willing but at best an average defender.  And give JG any a minute amount of experience there and he's worlds better than Kopp.

What JG lacks in experience defensively at the three he makes up for in athleticism.  When he's beaten off the dribble, he has the catch up speed and length to make up space.  Kopp can't.

In terms of rebounding, yes, he would lose some  rebounds moving to the 3 but at 6'6" he was bringing in rebounds at a greater rate than Race and TJD were.  It wasn't just about him being a 4 that was brought in rebounds.  Athletes pull in rebounds regardless of position....the guy that we aren't potentially bringing in -- Dexter Dennis -- averaged 5 rebounds per game.  Kopp killed us there, pulling in just 2 1/2 per game.

The issue is ball handling and shooting.  It's not defense.

Honestly it’s just about positional understanding with JG, that really should be obvious to anyone critiquing his perimeter D. He started bball late, he came to IU still raw despite making big leaps in his game in NH and getting late recruiting bc of it. He has all the tools and i think everyone here agrees made big strides his soph year in positioning, defensive reads, and play around the basket/rebounding along with elite shot blocking. But perimeter D includes switches, understanding offensive sets initiated up top, reacting to inside out and p & r / p & p, and playing almost entirely the 4 for Race his lack of experience at the college wing showed —

But it’s crazy to me to talk about him as a poor perimeter defender without even bothering to note any of that. His lateral quickness, length, speed, defensive tenacity generally (exceptional), timing on blocks - including, hello, 3-pointers, is clear. A guy like Kopp has literally none of that, none. What Kopp has is experience on the wing for defensive reads. His effort also is good. But zero speed, athleticism, length, hops etc. On a Crean team JG would’ve gotten a ton of time early and i would bet a million it would’ve included wing play. So CAM was just awful, and Woodson required experience and proven defensive progress before real time, acknowledged that his assistants were yelling at him in a game to put JG in, and he then dominated, then later said in the tourney that he “discovered” a guy on his bench in JG and played him extensively (finally) and golly, JG was outstanding in the tourney. He is primed to have a major role as he should next season, and i’d bank on dominant offensive showings from him whether he’s playing a traditional 4 (would like to see that with Race) or on the “wing”

[BGleas]

I'll leave it at this (until I get sucked in again :)

If Jordan Geronimo was a wing, he would have at least gotten some wing minutes the last two seasons.

If he was a wing, he would have gotten wing minutes on two teams that desperately needed better wing talent, and he never even got a look on the wing. 

If JG is a wing, and his coach thought he was a wing, why is his coach still  recruiting two more wings? If TJD leaves, we lost Durr, and if JG is all of the sudden a wing out of  nowhere, and we only replaced three bigs with Reneau, then why are we still recruiting wings?

This debate is Justin Smith, OG, Troy Williams and Watford all over again. 

[Alford Bailey]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'll leave it at this (until I get sucked in again :)

If Jordan Geronimo was a wing, he would have at least gotten some wing minutes the last two seasons.

If he was a wing, he would have gotten wing minutes on two teams that desperately needed better wing talent, and he never even got a look on the wing. 

If JG is a wing, and his coach thought he was a wing, why is his coach still  recruiting two more wings? If TJD leaves, we lost Durr, and if JG is all of the sudden a wing out of  nowhere, and we only replaced three bigs with Reneau, then why are we still recruiting wings?

This debate is Justin Smith, OG, Troy Williams and Watford all over again. 

He is an undersized 4 with great athletic ability. He won’t be a wing here or anywhere else he plays. Not his skill set.

[BGleas]

Just now, Alford Bailey said:

He is an undersized 4 with great athletic ability. He won’t be a wing here or anywhere else he plays. Not his skill set.

Completely agree!

[RaceToTheTop]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'll leave it at this (until I get sucked in again :)

If Jordan Geronimo was a wing, he would have at least gotten some wing minutes the last two seasons.

If he was a wing, he would have gotten wing minutes on two teams that desperately needed better wing talent, and he never even got a look on the wing. 

If JG is a wing, and his coach thought he was a wing, why is his coach still  recruiting two more wings? If TJD leaves, we lost Durr, and if JG is all of the sudden a wing out of  nowhere, and we only replaced three bigs with Reneau, then why are we still recruiting wings?

This debate is Justin Smith, OG, Troy Williams and Watford all over again. 

"Wing" is such a catch all phrase that it's started to lose its meaning.  Not all wings are the same.  McNeil is a shooting guard.  And if you go with the assumption that if the coach thinks it's correct, therefore it is correct, then I assume you agree with the putting in of five bench players at once + Stewart and Kopp getting 50 minutes per game and starting all year.