Negativity Thread

[coonhounds]

Can we just put this rumor to rest already?  The supposed players involved already mocked that rumor in tweets.

I was making fun of the rumor in my post.

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[lillurk]

9 hours ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

This isn’t much of an experiment. Your question is essentially, if you take away someone’s greatest accomplishments, are they seen as being as accomplished? Remember, Archie’s name came up with nearly every single college hoops opening of any significance before we hired him. If you take away his elite 8 run, and make that a 1st round exit, yeah his name simply wouldn’t have come up in near as many coaching searches. 
 

So, a similar question, if Brad Stevens loses any of his first weekend down to the wire games both the years he went to the final game, would he still be at the top of everyone’s list? 

Actually I’m saying his “greatest accomplishment” hinges on Aaron Craft barely missing a floater. The fact that other schools would’ve considered him is poor justification: schools hire bad coaches constantly with weak processes.

A single tournament run is not a lot to hang your hat on. Was Archie’s string of consistently making the tourney at Dayton enough to get a look absent three wins in March 2014?

[lillurk]

3 minutes ago, lillurk said:

Actually I’m saying his “greatest accomplishment” hinges on Aaron Craft barely missing a floater. The fact that other schools would’ve considered him is poor justification: schools hire bad coaches constantly with weak processes.

A single tournament run is not a lot to hang your hat on. Was Archie’s string of consistently making the tourney at Dayton enough to get a look absent three wins in March 2014?

And even if I was saying “take away his greatest single accomplishment to consider the candidate,” Stevens has two title game runs. So you drop the year he lost to Duke and still have a guy who made the title game.

single tournament runs matter but track record (regular season and tournament success) matters much more. Ask Mike Davis or Porter Moses.

[JSHoosier]

1 hour ago, lillurk said:

And even if I was saying “take away his greatest single accomplishment to consider the candidate,” Stevens has two title game runs. So you drop the year he lost to Duke and still have a guy who made the title game.

single tournament runs matter but track record (regular season and tournament success) matters much more. Ask Mike Davis or Porter Moses.

Before Indiana you could've said something similar for Crean, it was essentially just the one year.  Never finished better than 4th in the Big East and never got passed the second round, actually only made the tourney a little over 50% of the time.

[8bucks]

Could Archie’s “handcuffs” be his need to get the team into the NCAA tournament? If so, benching key but frustrating players may be detrimental toward making the NCAA.

At this point in the year that is probably true but earlier in the year perhaps not.

Interesting perspective from this article though.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-while-archie-millers-threats-seem-idle-does-he-really-have-choices/


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[IUc2016]

2 hours ago, lillurk said:

And even if I was saying “take away his greatest single accomplishment to consider the candidate,” Stevens has two title game runs. So you drop the year he lost to Duke and still have a guy who made the title game.

single tournament runs matter but track record (regular season and tournament success) matters much more. Ask Mike Davis or Porter Moses.

Archie had more than just those three wins in March 2014. He won his league 2 out of the next 3 years and that third year that he didn't win he finished second. So the fact that he followed up his March 2014 run with two league titles and a second place finish is why schools sought after him. 

If Aaron Craft makes a floater he still has 4 straight tournament appearances and two regular season league titles. 

EDIT: the year that he didn't win the league and finished second is the year he didn't have a player over 6'6 as he had injuries and dismissals. That team went to the first four and won two straight tournament games. So he followed up his elite eight run with a second place finish and two more tournament wins. Please look at the whole picture 

[NashvilleHoosier]

2 hours ago, lillurk said:

Actually I’m saying his “greatest accomplishment” hinges on Aaron Craft barely missing a floater. The fact that other schools would’ve considered him is poor justification: schools hire bad coaches constantly with weak processes.

A single tournament run is not a lot to hang your hat on. Was Archie’s string of consistently making the tourney at Dayton enough to get a look absent three wins in March 2014?

You're still pretty much making the same point here. He DID win that game against OSU in which I assume they were fairly significant underdogs. And he went on to win two more to complete the elite 8 run. If that doesn't happen, then no, of course he's probably not as popular of a candidate in our search, if even mentioned at all. My point about other schools considering him is that he was literally one of the most sought after young coaches at the time. He wasn't just mentioned in IU's search out of nowhere. If that elite 8 run doesn't happen, by default, he is simply not as hot of a commodity. And the larger point is you can take away every single coach's largest accomplishment, regardless of how it happened (i.e. winning a down to the wire game) and they will seem less accomplished. This just isn't much of a thought experiment. 

[Brass Cannon]

3 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

You're still pretty much making the same point here. He DID win that game against OSU in which I assume they were fairly significant underdogs. And he went on to win two more to complete the elite 8 run. If that doesn't happen, then no, of course he's probably not as popular of a candidate in our search, if even mentioned at all. My point about other schools considering him is that he was literally one of the most sought after young coaches at the time. He wasn't just mentioned in IU's search out of nowhere. If that elite 8 run doesn't happen, by default, he is simply not as hot of a commodity. And the larger point is you can take away every single coach's largest accomplishment, regardless of how it happened (i.e. winning a down to the wire game) and they will seem less accomplished. This just isn't much of a thought experiment. 

With Crean and Archie though taking away one season leaves looking exactly like what we have seen them to be. Average and nothing special. 
 

Sampson had made 13 of the previous 14 tourneys. That’s the key to success consistently make the tourney and be somewhere where you can get the players you want. 

[JSHoosier]

Just now, Brass Cannon said:

With Crean and Archie though taking away one season leaves looking exactly like what we have seen them to be. Average and nothing special. 
 

Sampson had made 13 of the previous 14 tourneys. That’s the key to success consistently make the tourney and be somewhere where you can get the players you want. 

At least Miller won his conference, albeit a weaker one, again, if we're being fair.  Crean never did that.

[lillurk]

2 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

You're still pretty much making the same point here. He DID win that game against OSU in which I assume they were fairly significant underdogs. And he went on to win two more to complete the elite 8 run. If that doesn't happen, then no, of course he's probably not as popular of a candidate in our search, if even mentioned at all. My point about other schools considering him is that he was literally one of the most sought after young coaches at the time. He wasn't just mentioned in IU's search out of nowhere. If that elite 8 run doesn't happen, by default, he is simply not as hot of a commodity. And the larger point is you can take away every single coach's largest accomplishment, regardless of how it happened (i.e. winning a down to the wire game) and they will seem less accomplished. This just isn't much of a thought experiment. 

You’re proving my point.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway/status/842354560161218560

They were about 31% to win at tip...so better than IU’s chances in Minnesota by a little, accounting for home court advantage: http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=400546900&year=2014.

His best accomplishment was narrowly achieved, I’m not saying it was worthless.

[Brass Cannon]

Just now, JSHoosier said:

At least Miller won his conference, albeit a weaker one, again, if we're being fair.  Crean never did that.

Agreed. To be fair I doubt Archie’s system would win the conference at Marquette either

[Chris007]

5 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

With Crean and Archie though taking away one season leaves looking exactly like what we have seen them to be. Average and nothing special. 
 

Sampson had made 13 of the previous 14 tourneys. That’s the key to success consistently make the tourney and be somewhere where you can get the players you want. 

But it's not the same. Archie won his league 4 straight seasons and went to the tourney all 4 seasons. Crean never finished higher than 4th in his league which wasn't the Big East then. 

[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

But it's not the same. Archie won his league 4 straight seasons and went to the tourney all 4 seasons. Crean never finished higher than 4th in his league which wasn't the Big East then. 

My point is neither was that great a candidate.  I don’t really care who is better.  

[JSHoosier]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

But it's not the same. Archie won his league 4 straight seasons and went to the tourney all 4 seasons. Crean never finished higher than 4th in his league which wasn't the Big East then. 

Miller won his conference twice, one of which was a tie.

[Chris007]

Just now, JSHoosier said:

Miller won his conference twice, one of which was a tie.

OK thank you for the correction. I was either confused by the 4 straight tourney appearances or just a dumba$$ :-)

[Brass Cannon]

To me the last person we hired looking like a serious team was Sampson. 
 

Rather than firing him wish we had supported him and maybe made him consider character when recruiting. 

[JSHoosier]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

OK thank you for the correction. I was either confused by the 4 straight tourney appearances or just a dumba$$ :-)

That he did do.  Although brings up what I've said on here multiple times, making a 68 team field isn't that much of an accomplishment and he wasn't exactly facing the toughest slate to get there.

[lillurk]

Look, you can find a great coach with only one tourney run!  The league titles in the A10 and the consecutive tournament qualifications are more important, but my point is are they enough to get considered for the job absent the other?

I think they should be enough for consideration at least, pending other factors.

[Chris007]

1 minute ago, lillurk said:

Look, you can find a great coach with only one tourney run!  The league titles in the A10 and the consecutive tournament qualifications are more important, but my point is are they enough to get considered for the job absent the other?

I think they should be enough for consideration at least, pending other factors.

Do you put Mick Cronin in that category?

[IUc2016]

The Narrative around Miller after his elite 8 appearance was that he was a coach to watch but nobody seriously considered him as it was the only accomplishment he had to that point. He then followed that season up with a great coaching job and a second place finish. He then won two more tournament games and almost won a third.

He then followed those two years up with consecutive league titles. He was widely considered the hottest young coach on the market along with Chris Mack. 

I strongly disagree with this assertion that the elite 8 is the reason he was hired or sought after. It's not even close to the truth.