Fred Glass Retiring

[LIHoosier 26,204]

7 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

They won 6 of 8 after that losing streak Joe so maybe people did see some improvement. They were near tourney talk because they beat a number of tournament quality teams and had 0 Quad 3 or 4 losses. They lost 12 of 13 and still ended up 1st 4 out. I miss these talks DeLow


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[JSHoosier 20,214]

31 minutes ago, Iugradman said:

IU had a fully healthy team in what was essentially an NCAA tournament play-in game against Ohio State in the Big Ten tournament. We all saw what happened. They got down twenty freaking points in the second half before a late comeback that cut the final result to four. They did not deserve to make the Big Dance. That is on Archie. 

I've been trying to forget that.  From the opening tip it there was zero discernible effort.

[mdn82 25,510]

We can spend all day making excuses for why IU football and basketball have been bad under for the last decade but at the end of the day they aren’t winning and the person in charge of overseeing each program has never been held accountable. They’ve used the local media to write puff pieces defending the job they have done instead of owning up to their mistakes. That is a failure of leadership and proves Glass is not fit to serve in his position.
The same is true for McRobbie. He has raided $65 million in Big Ten Network revenues for his pet projects but refuses to be interviewed about it. If he is confident in his decision to do this why then avoid media scrutiny? What is he afraid of? 
At the end of the day continued losing in both revenue sports will not be able to be dismissed or excused. Glass and McRobbie will have to answer for their poor decisions.
IU fans are incredibly patient and soft compared to other fanbases. ADs at other schools get ripped apart ruthlessly by fans and the media. But at IU you can’t criticize at all without getting jumped on.

Well if your boss thinks you are doing a good job does it matter what other people think? The people your boss answers to are happy with your boss. I guess that = confusion he hasn’t been fired to some.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,673]

IU as a team was better than they were the previous year. The problem was that we expected to be much better than we were, so the season was a disappointment even though the team was better. I like Archie and think he is the right guy for us, but he still needs to show it moving forward. 

I think if he can fix his offense, he will be fine. But that’s been the biggest problem the last two year. Obviously shooters will help, but his offense is still based off of the pick and roll mainly. And in the last two years I have witnessed the laziest pick and rolls I’ve ever seen. It would be nice to see more ball and player movement. The shooting woes are likely to continue with the 3pt line moving back so TJD and Davis probably won’t have a lot of room and same for Smith slashing.


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[mdn82 25,510]

The best time to fire Crean was 2011. Stevens had just went to his 2nd title game. Zeller was already committed. Indiana just had a disappointing season even with the low expectations it had. Then was the time to pull the trigger. You pull in Stevens, no one is leaving. Zeller was staying for two years. Yogi was still coming in because of Zeller. Indiana would have been on a much better trajectory.

 

 

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Hindsight is great but after where we were when we got Crean he was never getting less than 5 years. Especially after he got Zeller to commit. There isn’t one person that would have done that at any school. Not from the depths we were. His first class was Sophomores. Plus by that year we knew that 2012 class was going to be great (even though it didn’t pan out). Blackmon and Lyles had committed. There wasn’t a chance of making a change at that point.

 

 

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,225]

He’s stealing money from the State of Indiana. That’s how I perceive it. He needs to fax his resignation. Show some dignity.


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Lol

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,225]

They won 6 of 8 after that losing streak Joe so maybe people did see some improvement. They were near tourney talk because they beat a number of tournament quality teams and had 0 Quad 3 or 4 losses. They lost 12 of 13 and still ended up 1st 4 out. I miss these talks DeLow


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That is who I thought he was

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[mdn82 25,510]

They won 6 of 8 after that losing streak Joe so maybe people did see some improvement. They were near tourney talk because they beat a number of tournament quality teams and had 0 Quad 3 or 4 losses. They lost 12 of 13 and still ended up 1st 4 out. I miss these talks DeLow


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They always come back 🤫


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[WayneFleekHoosier 48,371]

I’m not holding my breath. Glass is a lawyer and and salesman. He knows what we and donors want to hear.

But when it comes to results he’s continued to make unfulfilled promises. When does the money dry up? Will it ever? If the fanbase hasn’t given up yet, when will it?

My generation will be lifelong fans but my kids think Indiana sports are a laughing stock and they are correct.

So we have another 20-30 years left of money pouring in. Lol


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[MikeRoberts 7,006]

You just lost all credibility.

First of all, saying that about Sampson is conjecture at best.  Myopia defined.  Sampson did more than make phone calls.  Don't swipe the drugs, hookers, lack of going to class, and legal trouble of the players under the carpet in order to fit your narrative.  That's weak. 

Second, 2 Big Ten titles is not a disaster.  Crean inhereted a disaster...left by your "great coach" and ultimately couldn't win consistently and he was fired. You got your wish. Glass did what he should have done...and yet you still b*tch. Why?  He fired the coach who didn't win to Indiana's standards.  Again....What's your point???

Things are picking up drastically in the basketball program, and you can either choose to acknowledge that or ignore it. Up to you, but one is real, the other is you complaining for the sake of it.   Third, Glass has not failed at "his job."   I lined out for you what his job is. He's failed in YOUR eyes because you want something different.   His job is not defined by fans or the media.  His job is defined by Michael McRobbie.   Why is that so hard for you?    We're not Duke and we're not Kentucky (and I have zero interest in BEING Kentucky.)    What if IU returns to basketball success in the next 2-3 years?    What will you have to complain about?   

You're really basing this entire line of BS on losing to Purdue last season because that cost us a bowl bid, and basketball is going to be just fine.   Glass DID fire Crean.  He did a search and found a coach that not only recruits the way Indiana did when it was its most successful but showed obvious growth a year ago.  

Anyway, there are 3-4 of you who can't widen your lens and accept reality, so I'll let you go on arguing that Fred Glass should lose his job based on the past you're not happy with.   Have at it.  When you come back to reality, let me know.

 

I recognize you aren’t responding to me here but...

 

Hey, I’ve grown to love your posts and perspective but don’t get this stuff at all. You identified Crean for what he was early on, earlier than most and at his best was a sweet 16 coach. In 9 years, that was his ceiling. Many years after it was obvious to almost everyone he was not the right guy he was fired.

 

The most important part is that he left the program not in a sweet 16 ceiling but in “A SERIOUS REBUIlLD”. That is insane and 100% on Glass. It should never have come to that but he waited and allowed for it to dip to that level again.

 

A “SERIOUS REBUIlLD” is not acceptable. He didn’t inherit that mess, the NAACP cannot be blamed for that, nobody but the one person responsible for the health of IU Basketball can be blamed but Fred Glass. That’s on him. He let that crap happen after 9 years to stoop back to that level again on his watch.

 

Football and his lack of even looking at other options is a whole other can of turds

 

 

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[Old Friend 8,389]

1 hour ago, MikeRoberts said:

Hey, I’ve grown to love your posts and perspective but don’t get this stuff at all. You identified Crean for what he was early on, earlier than most and at his best was a sweet 16 coach. In 9 years, that was his ceiling. Many years after it was obvious to almost everyone he was not the right guy he was fired.

The most important part is that he left the program not in a sweet 16 ceiling but in “A SERIOUS REBUIlLD”. That is insane and 100% on Glass. It should never have come to that but he waited and allowed for it to dip to that level again.

A “SERIOUS REBUIlLD” is not acceptable. He didn’t inherit that mess, the NAACP cannot be blamed for that, nobody but the one person responsible for the health of IU Basketball can be blamed but Fred Glass. That’s on him. He let that crap happen after 9 years to stoop back to that level again on his watch.

Football and his lack of even looking at other options is a whole other can of turds


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First of all, thank you.   I disagree with you, and I'll explain the best I can.  I think you have to take emotion out of it and look chronologically; then apply true logic.   I'm not defending Tom Crean...don't get me wrong.  I AM defending Fred Glass.  Yes, I know him.  Yes, I am a bit biased, but that doesn't make me wrong.   The man ran the Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board during a time when the city went through HUGE growth.   He's no idiot as some here would have you believe.   So for me, there's a lot of lost credibility with the comments to that effect.

Okay, so let's go back to 2000 because that's when this really starts.   Bob Knight gets fired and Mike Davis.

*Indiana reaches Big Ten Tournament final in year 1

*IU receives pressure from NAACP, Jesse Jackson, etc and gives Davis full time contract instead of doing a national search (yes..problem can be traced back to here.  Mike Davis should have never been hired on a permanent basis, and I know with 100% certainty that Rick Pitino wanted the job.  I would assume at that time, Indiana could have had whoever they wanted.  This is why I disagree with you and say the NAACP can in fact take some blame because of the rest of this timeline that never would have happened if we hadn't caved; and Fred Glass was not involved then)

*Davis complains he is "the lowest paid coach in the Big Ten," and more pressure on then AD Michael McNeely, who is forced to give Davis a raise AND an extension; IU goes to final four.   Davis receives additional contract incentives

* Davis "resigns" 4 years later citing unity of fan base.   Depending on who you talk to, IU offers the job to Kevin Stallings or John Belien, who had a contract in hand.   Adam Herbert (The Velvet Fog) steps in and demands (due to more pressure from special interest groups and his own vanity) IU hire a minority to replace Davis.  And...Herbert thought Sampson was black.  Still something I find hysterical

*Sampson does Sampson things and Indiana hires Dakich, who cleans house and we end up a few months later with Tom Crean, some freshmen, some walks ons and a manager.

*Crean asks for and receives an extension after year two, stating it will take time to rebuild the program, which was left empty.

*2010 Cody Zeller commits (would you have fired Crean after THIS season, his 3rd, and risked losing Zeller?)

* December, 2011 Indiana beats Kentucky.  Indiana makes Sweet 16 (would you have fired Crean here?)

*2013 Indiana wins Big Ten Title (can't fire him here, right?)

*2013 recruiting then/2014/2015 Indiana is disappointing, but has a strong roster, and players like Noah Vonleh. Thomas Bryant, and "the movement" commit to IU.  Indiana starts 2015  season 10-2, and sees a top 10 ranking for a week (I could have made a case for letting him go, but IU made the NCAA Tournament and record improved over 2014, so I get it)

*2016  Indiana wins Big Ten title again

*2018 Due to inconsistecy and other things, Crean is fired (this was the first logical time it could have happened in my mind)

*Archie Miller is hired and I believe absolutely on the right track.  You can disagree, but I see above that even success won't convince some people, so as my dad would have said, I may be pi$$ing up a rope.   But if people are logical and step away from emotion, I'll submit yet again that the problems with the basketball program began with hiring Mike Davis, remained when they hired Kelvin Sampson, and Glass' hands were tied w Crean because he did "just enough" at the right times.   (and you guys were all on board when we were winning Big Ten titles)   IU's BOT and administrations can be blamed a hell of a lot more than anyone else if you ask me.

So...where does the blame lie with Fred Glass?   Logically....where?    Crean DID inheret a bag of crap as did Archie in year one.  That cupboard was thin.  Maybe not bare, but thin.  Year 2 was better and you can see whats's going on over there.   I just don't see where Glass is culpable...really at all for the last 20 years.  He did what he had to do when he had to do it.

[Old Friend 8,389]

4 hours ago, Iugradman said:

IU had a fully healthy team in what was essentially an NCAA tournament play-in game against Ohio State in the Big Ten tournament. We all saw what happened. They got down twenty freaking points in the second half before a late comeback that cut the final result to four. They did not deserve to make the Big Dance. That is on Archie. 

Last season was the first a single one of his recruits played a minute for him here, and we had a few significant injuries.  Team played better late and players who didn't fit are gone.   Breathe a minute and let's avoid the "immediate satisfaction or the coach gets fired" mentality.  Good gravy.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

People are acting like a offer to coach basketball or football at Indiana is an invitation to heaven.

“We could have had Brad Stevens” - highly doubtful he would have considered the job with Crean in place (someone reported on here that was a direct response from Stevens during our inquiries)

“We could have had Les Miles” - so what. He’s 65 and on the backend of a career that peaked over 10 years ago. He’s not going to fix Kansas and he wasn’t going to fix Indiana.

“But Jeff Brohm!” - meh. We’ll see how that plays out...

“Fire Archie and hire Chris Beard” - okay so 1) you want Fred Glass to fire one of the hottest young coaches in basketball and 2) you believe Beard has any interest in coming to a program that is less poised for success in the immediate future?

Delusional. Remember the conversation about offering jobs to people you believe will accept? You better be completely certain that a coach will accept if you’re planning to fire your existing coach if you can get them.

Things we can agree on:

1) there should have been a more thorough IUFB coaching search

2) see #1 because that’s about it

On that - do we know if there was ANY level of inquiries put out to other coaches for IUFB? There’s more than a zero percent chance Tom Allen is the only man who wanted the job. Head

Coach of IUFB is death toll plain and simple.


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[southernindianahoosier2 902]

First of all, thank you.   I disagree with you, and I'll explain the best I can.  I think you have to take emotion out of it and look chronologically; then apply true logic.   I'm not defending Tom Crean...don't get me wrong.  I AM defending Fred Glass.  Yes, I know him.  Yes, I am a bit biased, but that doesn't make me wrong.   The man ran the Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board during a time when the city went through HUGE growth.   He's no idiot as some here would have you believe.   So for me, there's a lot of lost credibility with the comments to that effect.

Okay, so let's go back to 2000 because that's when this really starts.   Bob Knight gets fired and Mike Davis.

*Indiana reaches Big Ten Tournament final in year 1

*IU receives pressure from NAACP, Jesse Jackson, etc and gives Davis full time contract instead of doing a national search (yes..problem can be traced back to here.  Mike Davis should have never been hired on a permanent basis, and I know with 100% certainty that Rick Pitino wanted the job.  I would assume at that time, Indiana could have had whoever they wanted.  This is why I disagree with you and say the NAACP can in fact take some blame because of the rest of this timeline that never would have happened if we hadn't caved; and Fred Glass was not involved then)

*Davis complains he is "the lowest paid coach in the Big Ten," and more pressure on then AD Michael McNeely, who is forced to give Davis a raise AND an extension; IU goes to final four.   Davis receives additional contract incentives

* Davis "resigns" 4 years later citing unity of fan base.   Depending on who you talk to, IU offers the job to Kevin Stallings or John Belien, who had a contract in hand.   Adam Herbert (The Velvet Fog) steps in and demands (due to more pressure from special interest groups and his own vanity) IU hire a minority to replace Davis.  And...Herbert thought Sampson was black.  Still something I find hysterical

*Sampson does Sampson things and Indiana hires Dakich, who cleans house and we end up a few months later with Tom Crean, some freshmen, some walks ons and a manager.

*Crean asks for and receives an extension after year two, stating it will take time to rebuild the program, which was left empty.

*2010 Cody Zeller commits (would you have fired Crean after THIS season, his 3rd, and risked losing Zeller?)

* December, 2011 Indiana beats Kentucky.  Indiana makes Sweet 16 (would you have fired Crean here?)

*2013 Indiana wins Big Ten Title (can't fire him here, right?)

*2013 recruiting then/2014/2015 Indiana is disappointing, but has a strong roster, and players like Noah Vonleh. Thomas Bryant, and "the movement" commit to IU.  Indiana starts 2015  season 10-2, and sees a top 10 ranking for a week (I could have made a case for letting him go, but IU made the NCAA Tournament and record improved over 2014, so I get it)

*2016  Indiana wins Big Ten title again

*2018 Due to inconsistecy and other things, Crean is fired (this was the first logical time it could have happened in my mind)

*Archie Miller is hired and I believe absolutely on the right track.  You can disagree, but I see above that even success won't convince some people, so as my dad would have said, I may be pi$$ing up a rope.   But if people are logical and step away from emotion, I'll submit yet again that the problems with the basketball program began with hiring Mike Davis, remained when they hired Kelvin Sampson, and Glass' hands were tied w Crean because he did "just enough" at the right times.   (and you guys were all on board when we were winning Big Ten titles)   IU's BOT and administrations can be blamed a hell of a lot more than anyone else if you ask me.

So...where does the blame lie with Fred Glass?   Logically....where?    Crean DID inheret a bag of crap as did Archie in year one.  That cupboard was thin.  Maybe not bare, but thin.  Year 2 was better and you can see whats's going on over there.   I just don't see where Glass is culpable...really at all for the last 20 years.  He did what he had to do when he had to do it.

I hear what you are saying and appreciate your response. I feel as though you are getting lost in the trees for the forest. At any point in Time during or after the 2013-2014 season there was enough evidence to say that Crean was not the right fit. Not having a practice schedule and other insights have leaked and it appears that he never exhibited a championship level approach (what it would take to win a title here). With that inside knowledge at the time.. as the AD you would have to know that:

A. Crean built some fun teams and is capable of doing it again and again

B. No matter the talent on the roster, the ceiling was S16 or a miracle final four.

C. Retaining Crean. shouldn’t be contingent on a year to year basis

 

It seems that at every breaking point Glass rationalized keeping him and it didn’t pay off the way it hoped. I’m saying the way he approaches decisions and his problem solving logic are way off base.

 

I do believe that Crean and Glass were about to part ways when the rumor of him to Alabama was taking place, but obviously something happened.

 

Where I think you’re wrong again with Glass is it is totally possible he hired the worst of the three available men willing to take the job on 2017. The three being Mack, Holtmann, and Archie. So even after he fired the guy, it could be likely that he again made the wrong decision.

 

Only time will tell, but so far it’s not looking good.

 

I mention Beard a lot on here lol. But as the AD you have to figure out with the inside data you have...if you think Archie will be a championship level coach then great, I can’t wait to win banner 6.... but after 3-4 years you should know what he is capable of and cut bait If you’re not sold. I don’t trust Glass’ decision making one bit. So again, only time will tell.

 

Honest question to you: if Archie misses the tournament and Holtmann and Mack have great success next year do you still believe Fred Glass should keep his job? At what point do you evaluate Glass’ decision making and say “okay, he made bad decisions”. Honestly what is the tipping point for you and how will you evaluate Glass?

 

 

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[Old Friend 8,389]

29 minutes ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

I hear what you are saying and appreciate your response. I feel as though you are getting lost in the trees for the forest. At any point in Time during or after the 2013-2014 season there was enough evidence to say that Crean was not the right fit. Not having a practice schedule and other insights have leaked and it appears that he never exhibited a championship level approach (what it would take to win a title here). With that inside knowledge at the time.. as the AD you would have to know that:

A. Crean built some fun teams and is capable of doing it again and again

B. No matter the talent on the roster, the ceiling was S16 or a miracle final four.

C. Retaining Crean. shouldn’t be contingent on a year to year basis

 

It seems that at every breaking point Glass rationalized keeping him and it didn’t pay off the way it hoped. I’m saying the way he approaches decisions and his problem solving logic are way off base.

 

I do believe that Crean and Glass were about to part ways when the rumor of him to Alabama was taking place, but obviously something happened.

 

Where I think you’re wrong again with Glass is it is totally possible he hired the worst of the three available men willing to take the job on 2017. The three being Mack, Holtmann, and Archie. So even after he fired the guy, it could be likely that he again made the wrong decision.

 

Only time will tell, but so far it’s not looking good.

 

I mention Beard a lot on here lol. But as the AD you have to figure out with the inside data you have...if you think Archie will be a championship level coach then great, I can’t wait to win banner 6.... but after 3-4 years you should know what he is capable of and cut bait If you’re not sold. I don’t trust Glass’ decision making one bit. So again, only time will tell.

 

Honest question to you: if Archie misses the tournament and Holtmann and Mack have great success next year do you still believe Fred Glass should keep his job? At what point do you evaluate Glass’ decision making and say “okay, he made bad decisions”. Honestly what is the tipping point for you and how will you evaluate Glass?

 

 

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Honest answer.  I believe in Archie.  I saw what happened a year ago and I see the general direction of the program.   Barring regression, I will never be someone who believes in throwing mud against the wall until something sticks in the shirt term is the right way to run an athletic program.

So....no, I wouldn't fire him yet.  Bill Bekichick had a poor record with the Browns.   Think they regret letting him go?  I suspect Glass believes in Archie and sees the recruits, the direction, etc.  It is very likely Indiana will secure 3 straight Indiana Mr. Basketball winners.  I'm not sure that's ever been done, and certainly not more than once or twice.   

I am on record as saying I want Indiana to get old and stay old.    Sounds to me like you aren't even willing to allow them to GET old.  Firing coaches every 3 years until one produces a year of your desired results would differ nothing to build a program.  And it's short sighted.  If I were.....interviewing for Archie's job if it became available in March, U'd be awfully leery of the  opportunity unless the program showed obvious signs of regression.

My question for you is why are you so driven to assume and expect the worst?  Are you that anti-Glass that you want HIM gone to prove you right?  I'm not a witch hunter.  I don't call for jobs unless it's obvious a d I know for sure I can get better w someone else.  Indiana University's biggest problem is higher than Fred Glass.  You want to call for someone's head?   Look higher.

But do me a favor.  Please raise your expectations if qualified people.  Archie Miller was a good hire in paper and until he proves otherwise,  on the floor and for the program as welll.  Look for positive signs and expect success.  Rooting for failure of qualified people for the sake of an "I told you so" is exhausting.   As are witch hunts.  Both Miller and Fred Glass deserve better, and if yoy'd for a second look through a wider lens, your perspective might change.   You and others aren't spending much time looking at what's positive in the men's basketball program, and you seem hell bent on getting someone fired.   That's not my bag if I feel someone is qualified and capable.  I think both men are 

 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,673]

I’m not holding my breath. Glass is a lawyer and and salesman. He knows what we and donors want to hear.

But when it comes to results he’s continued to make unfulfilled promises. When does the money dry up? Will it ever? If the fanbase hasn’t given up yet, when will it?

My generation will be lifelong fans but my kids think Indiana sports are a laughing stock and they are correct.

So we have another 20-30 years left of money pouring in. Lol


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That’s what I’m worried about with my kids. I was luckily born and raised an IU fan. My parents didn’t go to school but my dad just so happened to start watching when he was 5 or 6 when Knight was hired because his dad started watching IU at that time. My son is only 11 months old right now(and have another on the way) but how good will IU be when he can start remembering or when he can decide who his favorite team is? I can really only remember watching games in 2002 and on with how young I was. That just so happened to be the Final Four run. My kids may not have that to witness as fans. And I can’t have a couple U.K. fans or something running around here. Football I won’t be too worried about but basketball is a whole different story.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,673]

But do me a favor.  Please raise your expectations if qualified people.  Archie Miller was a good hire in paper and until he proves otherwise,  on the floor and for the program as welll.  Look for positive signs and expect success.  Rooting for failure of qualified people for the sake of an "I told you so" is exhausting.   As are witch hunts.  Both Miller and Fred Glass deserve better, and if yoy'd for a second look through a wider lens, your perspective might change.   You and others aren't spending much time looking at what's positive in the men's basketball program, and you seem hell bent on getting someone fired.   That's not my bag if I feel someone is qualified and capable.  I think both men are 
 

You say do you a favor but red flags can be seen after two years. People like you are happy with just having Indiana kids committing and that is enough, even with minimal success. Miller is doing an okay job recruiting. Nothing that should be too shocking so far. It’s where he has put his emphasis. He’s gotten Romeo and TJD. He had no clue how to use Romeo so that really hurt outside of of his injury. He should be better with TJD with how his offense has worked the last two seasons. Leal is the likely Mr. Basketball but he shouldn’t be expected to do a ton his freshman season. You say Archie is one of the hottest young coaches in CBB, but after two seasons that is no longer the case. When he was at Dayton maybe. But there are two big red flags that will always keep Archie down. 1. His inability to coach an offense goes back to Dayton. His offensive philosophy is atrocious and his ability to even have it running correctly hasn’t happened outside of maybe 5 or so games. The Marquette game was probably the best offensive showing IU has had under Archie and it went downhill real quick afterwards. 2. His substitution decisions. They really didn’t make sense and last year they were almost insane. The most memorable for me was during the Nebraska game(which I attended) when at the end of the half he decided to put McRoberts and Fitzner on the floor. Indiana had actually worked it’s way back into the game and what happened on that very last play? The last play that literally every person I could hear say “that’s the worst substitution I’ve ever seen.” McRoberts got blown by and Fitzner was to slow to help and Nebraska was able to end the half with a dunk and momentum. Can Miller Fox those problems? Absolutely. He’s still pretty young. Is it likely? Not really after this many years of his coaching career. But I am hoping like crazy that I’m proven wrong.


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[JSHoosier 20,214]

There are things I like with Miller, more of a focus on IN and midwest players and better defense (or any defense compared to Crean); at times the defense is lockdown.

Some want to blame the players, but generally speaking Miller's teams can't shoot even at Dayton.  At this point in his career some responsibility for that has to fall on him.  So I'm hesitant to just assume he can win here.

[Maedhros 627]

18 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

In his first year IU had 0 wins against ncaa tourney teams and didn’t have 1 win against a top 50 team. Best win in the B1G was 9-9 Penn St. they beat 0 of the top 6 B1G teams. IU spent 0 days in the ncaa tournament discussion.

2nd year IU had 5 wins against tourney teams
Swept final 4 participant Michigan St
3 top 20 NET wins( committee uses it so it’s important, one of those on the road) and spent the whole year in the tournament discussion.

Maybe to some that doesn’t show improvement but to others maybe it does


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Obviously that's improvement from point A to point B. But if those seasons are your points B and C, then it's hard to see improvement from point A. Speaking personally, Archie built up a deficit of trust from me in that first season, and last year's collapse wasn't enough to yet dig him out of it. I need to see more in the seasons to come to buy Old Friend's claim that we're on a dramatic upswing.

As for the preceding discussion of the basketball team missing the tournament in 7 of the past 11 seasons (EDIT: not your discussion USPS, just using this post for my response), that's a silly use of arbitrary end points. It encompasses the seasons directly after the basketball program was burned to the ground, a process completed before Fred Glass was ever hired. It also includes the two seasons directly after Fred Glass already decided the performance of the program wasn't good enough and took action to make a change. Setting those seasons aside, making the tournament four out of six years (or seven, depending on how you feel about Crean's third season) and three times advancing to the Sweet Sixteen doesn't sound so bad. The Archie era hasn't yet worked out the way we'd all hoped, but if it continues that way I don't doubt Glass will fairly receive his share of the blame.

[Maedhros 627]

11 hours ago, Old Friend said:

First of all, thank you.   I disagree with you, and I'll explain the best I can.  I think you have to take emotion out of it and look chronologically; then apply true logic.   I'm not defending Tom Crean...don't get me wrong.  I AM defending Fred Glass.  Yes, I know him.  Yes, I am a bit biased, but that doesn't make me wrong.   The man ran the Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board during a time when the city went through HUGE growth.   He's no idiot as some here would have you believe.   So for me, there's a lot of lost credibility with the comments to that effect.

Okay, so let's go back to 2000 because that's when this really starts.   Bob Knight gets fired and Mike Davis.

*Indiana reaches Big Ten Tournament final in year 1

*IU receives pressure from NAACP, Jesse Jackson, etc and gives Davis full time contract instead of doing a national search (yes..problem can be traced back to here.  Mike Davis should have never been hired on a permanent basis, and I know with 100% certainty that Rick Pitino wanted the job.  I would assume at that time, Indiana could have had whoever they wanted.  This is why I disagree with you and say the NAACP can in fact take some blame because of the rest of this timeline that never would have happened if we hadn't caved; and Fred Glass was not involved then)

*Davis complains he is "the lowest paid coach in the Big Ten," and more pressure on then AD Michael McNeely, who is forced to give Davis a raise AND an extension; IU goes to final four.   Davis receives additional contract incentives

* Davis "resigns" 4 years later citing unity of fan base.   Depending on who you talk to, IU offers the job to Kevin Stallings or John Belien, who had a contract in hand.   Adam Herbert (The Velvet Fog) steps in and demands (due to more pressure from special interest groups and his own vanity) IU hire a minority to replace Davis.  And...Herbert thought Sampson was black.  Still something I find hysterical

*Sampson does Sampson things and Indiana hires Dakich, who cleans house and we end up a few months later with Tom Crean, some freshmen, some walks ons and a manager.

*Crean asks for and receives an extension after year two, stating it will take time to rebuild the program, which was left empty.

*2010 Cody Zeller commits (would you have fired Crean after THIS season, his 3rd, and risked losing Zeller?)

* December, 2011 Indiana beats Kentucky.  Indiana makes Sweet 16 (would you have fired Crean here?)

*2013 Indiana wins Big Ten Title (can't fire him here, right?)

*2013 recruiting then/2014/2015 Indiana is disappointing, but has a strong roster, and players like Noah Vonleh. Thomas Bryant, and "the movement" commit to IU.  Indiana starts 2015  season 10-2, and sees a top 10 ranking for a week (I could have made a case for letting him go, but IU made the NCAA Tournament and record improved over 2014, so I get it)

*2016  Indiana wins Big Ten title again

*2018 Due to inconsistecy and other things, Crean is fired (this was the first logical time it could have happened in my mind)

*Archie Miller is hired and I believe absolutely on the right track.  You can disagree, but I see above that even success won't convince some people, so as my dad would have said, I may be pi$$ing up a rope.   But if people are logical and step away from emotion, I'll submit yet again that the problems with the basketball program began with hiring Mike Davis, remained when they hired Kelvin Sampson, and Glass' hands were tied w Crean because he did "just enough" at the right times.   (and you guys were all on board when we were winning Big Ten titles)   IU's BOT and administrations can be blamed a hell of a lot more than anyone else if you ask me.

So...where does the blame lie with Fred Glass?   Logically....where?    Crean DID inheret a bag of crap as did Archie in year one.  That cupboard was thin.  Maybe not bare, but thin.  Year 2 was better and you can see whats's going on over there.   I just don't see where Glass is culpable...really at all for the last 20 years.  He did what he had to do when he had to do it.

I'm completely on board with this timeline. It's weird to hear the Glass era referred to as an embarrassing time for the basketball program. I think we saw Crean's ceiling and it was time for him to go, but we experienced a lot of exciting successes and recruiting wins that provided hope for the future during his time here as well. Outside of Davis's outlier run to the Final Four, Crean provided the only Big Ten titles and Sweet Sixteens I've experienced in my memory as a fan. It takes a narrow sort of hindsight to believe Glass should have fired Crean any earlier than he did.