State of the program

[Old Friend]

4 hours ago, Honkyman said:

"If we don't make the tournament but there's progress..." There is no progress if we don't make the tournament in 2020.  IU was the last team out this past year. If we don't make the tournament, we have either had the same kind of season as last year or worse. IU has to make the tournament in 2020.

I'm in this camp.  We need to make the tournament and we need to compete for a top 3-4 spot in the Big Ten.  There is no reason we can't do that.  Every team loses scorers and leaders every season.   I'll submit both Langford and Morgan had to play a little or a lot out of position a year ago, and both took a lot of shots.  Phinisee getting hurt killed momentum and he wasn't right for a month when he got back.  Thompson's injury set him and our front court back; and Hunter not being available at all hurt depth and played a role in Langford's mis and over use.

So much of the negativity around here seems to come without taking the whole truth into consideration.   There are a whole lot of truths from injury to a roster that didn't fit to some dead weight on the bench to a couple of guys being asked to play a role that was either too large or didn't fit.....on and on.    Last season, we had significant dead weight on the roster.  This year, we do not.   Last year, we were small in the front court.  This year, we are not.   Last season was the first that any Miller recruit played a minute on this team.  Not true this year. Last year, we relied on a freshman point guard and when he got hurt, a kid who was maddeningly selfish and kind of dumb until late February.  If one stays healthy and the other just continues to progress; Al Durham and Armon Franklin will REALLY help.   I believe we will see growth from the ever enigmatic Justin Smith, too.  And if Hunter's healthy?  I see no reason Indiana can't win 22-24 games next season.

[8bucks]

So it seems most of us share common ground when it comes to expectations/results for next year.

Seems everyone is expecting us to be in the tournament and many expect us to be a top quartile team in the BT.

Some of us may be more doubtful of whether we get there but remember while we argue that most of us are expecting a tournament team next year.


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[Class of '66 Old Fart]

9 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Anyone think Archie and the team feels the pressure that this season is make or break in the mind of many fans? Or is this not a reality? Probably isn’t, honestly, but feels like it should be.
 

Not sure about the team, but if Archie isn't feeling the pressure then we definitely hired the wrong man.  Any coach worth his salt should be feeling the pressure after experiencing how IU has performed and knowing full well what the fanbase expects.

[Walking Boot of Doom]

So it seems most of us share common ground when it comes to expectations/results for next year.

Seems everyone is expecting us to be in the tournament and many expect us to be a top quartile team in the BT.

Some of us may be more doubtful of whether we get there but remember while we argue that most of us are expecting a tournament team next year.


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For next year, I don’t really care as much about the B1G finish as I do making the tournament.

Just based on recent history, it seems the top half of the B1G is usually a pretty good indicator come Selection Sunday.


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[Stuhoo]

1 minute ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

For next year, I don’t really care as much about the B1G finish as I do making the tournament.

Just based on recent history, it seems the top half of the B1G is usually a pretty good indicator come Selection Sunday.


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+1

If we go 11-9 in the B1G for a 6th/7th place finish, and therein cruise into the tournament as a six or seven seed, that wouldn't be a holycrapgrandslamawesomeness moment, but it'd be just fine.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

21 hours ago, Old Friend said:

3)  Recruiting will tell a lot.  I loved the Joey Brunk addition and I think he'll really help.  If Hunter can play at something close to full strength, he'll really help.  Jackson-Davis will really help.  And...I am very high on Franklin, having seen him play a few times.  In my mind, there's nothing Romeo did a year ago Franklin can't do, and I think Franklin is a more consistent shooter...and "longer."    But what's next?   Who commits for 2020?   Beyond?    Where does Indiana stand in the minds of recruits?   Can we get shooters to spread the floor?  Can we get a ball handler to back up Phinsee when Green graduates?   Bigs to replace Davis and eventually Brunk?  Who will be our scorers?  Our leaders?   

 

You have been very consistently high on Franklin who you have seen play in person (and I have not). You were also very high on Rob P who was great as a freshman when healthy so I trust your judgement there.

But I don't get the "there's nothing Romeo did a year ago Franklin can't do" line that you have said a few times now. Romeo was the offense in many games last year when we couldn't get anything going. He was also one of the best in the country at driving through traffic and finishing around the rim. Is that something you really see Franklin doing as a freshman? I don't mean to criticize your point but can you explain more why you think 2019 Franklin can do anything 2018 Romeo did? I'm certainly hoping he's a better 3 point shooter than Romeo was last year but I can't see him taking over the offense or getting to the rim at will his first year. 

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

Here's another thing. Why does Archie keep targeting five star players? I mean we really need to win at this point. These guys are going to end up at Duke or Kentucky or somewhere along those lines.

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Yet others think if we get 4 stars ranked around 100 or above, it is underwhelming.

What does this base want?

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

While it was an underwhelming season (trust me, I’ve been outspoken about my frustrations with Archie/team), but no one in their right mind could have predicted the injuries that the team was dealt with. Rob’s concussion, Hunter missing the entire season, Race missing most of the season, McRoberts being hurt almost the entire season, Romero’s thumb injury, Al dislocating finger at MSU, Deron’s health iffy most of the season (some conditioning issues from last season’s injury), and a Green getting suspended (didn’t he also get injured and was out a couple games in the non-conference?).

I get both parties being positive or negative, but this team was totally derailed by injuries. This team also had 4 games where it took some ridiculous shooting to beat us. Trust me, I still think this team underachieved by not making the tournament, but if this team was mostly healthy all season, it gets into the tournament.

If this team can fix the slow starts and just be a cohesive team on the floor, I think this team can surprise some people. I’m expecting an 8-12th seed in the NCAA Tourney next season, and anything less will be a huge disappointment with Archie’s seat scolding hot (I realize my comment a few pages back about improving but not making the tournament made no sense, just an idiotic comment by me that I didn’t think through).

I think Archie can be the coach that can take us back to where we need to, but he needs to show much more than he did last season.


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My thoughts also. I know some say it is an excuse, but key injuries didn't help. RP's concussion really hurt us IMO. He was playing really well before that. No reason to expect that wouldn't have continued through the B1G.

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[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, 8bucks said:

Curious, do most think that if we don’t make the tournament this year then it is cause for concern?

I think making it will be much harder but it is an important milestone nonetheless.

Whether you are more supportive or more doubtful about Archie, what is your expectation on making the tournament


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I think it's cause for concern. Didn't Lander say recently that IU needs to win games this year if he's going to consider coming here? We can talk all we want about how recruiting "momentum" is a fiction but that is our top 2021 in state target making it plain that another mediocre season isn't acceptable.

If we have two instate McDAA's and Mr Basketballs that don't make a tournament appearance in back to back years, the "inside out" strategy might fall apart. 

[Honkyman]

IU has to make the tournament in 2020. Our recruiting has stalled since the collapse in conference play last season. We will struggle to land top 50 ranked players both in-state and out-of-state until we start winning and going to the tournament. 

[Old Friend]

54 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You have been very consistently high on Franklin who you have seen play in person (and I have not). You were also very high on Rob P who was great as a freshman when healthy so I trust your judgement there.

But I don't get the "there's nothing Romeo did a year ago Franklin can't do" line that you have said a few times now. Romeo was the offense in many games last year when we couldn't get anything going. He was also one of the best in the country at driving through traffic and finishing around the rim. Is that something you really see Franklin doing as a freshman? I don't mean to criticize your point but can you explain more why you think 2019 Franklin can do anything 2018 Romeo did? I'm certainly hoping he's a better 3 point shooter than Romeo was last year but I can't see him taking over the offense or getting to the rim at will his first year. 

Sure.  It's an opinion, right?   Franklin is just as long as Romeo if not longer.  He's just as athletic.  He's just as strong.  The reason I said that came from watching him against Lawrence North.  LN had 2-3 D1 kids, and Franklin scored an easy 30 doing exactly what you mentioned Romeo did.  Now, it boils down to opportunity and fit within a system.  So.....Franklin CAN do those things, but I would agree he probably won't be asked to so the numbers won't be there.  And if Hunter's healthy, Franklin won't get enough minutes to put up great numbers.   I just believe he's an exceptionally talented scorer with the same general skill set as Romeo

[tortex28]

Yet others think if we get 4 stars ranked around 100 or above, it is underwhelming.

What does this base want?

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Going to have to win with three and four stars before we can start Landing 5 stars that aren't from in state

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[8bucks]

Yet others think if we get 4 stars ranked around 100 or above, it is underwhelming.

What does this base want?

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I think a class like our freshman class becomes underwhelming when it is compared to what it could have been.

Had the staff indicated they only planned to bring in 2, recruited these 2 as primary targets and then landed them, it is one thing. It is another thing when he chased after several other candidates and seemed to miss out on them (at least partially) because of our mid year slide.

Given that most people think we need to make the tournament next year, even after losing our top 2 players, bringing in guys that could take time to develop can lead to some apprehension

I think Archie wins more long term with 4 star guys but he finds himself in a win now environment. He went after several early impact guys but did not add them to the class.


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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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[tortex28]

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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Archie has been offering some more 5 stars the last few days

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[8bucks]

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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I don’t get too caught up in who to recruit. The coaches watch a ton a tape, see even more kids actually playing and have insights into who they are as people.

For me, I would like to see the staff target kids who they feel can contribute and who they can coach. Then, with a pretty high hit rate, I expect to land these guys.

Archie seemed on that path when he landed the 2018 class. He seemed on that path early for the 2019 class but we have had a lot more misses than hits since then.

As misses mount, it is hard not to question how kids view the program.

Leal, Galloway and Cross seem like kids the staff want to land. I would be glad if we landed them and I would start to feel better about our recruiting momentum.

Long term I would hope we have some blend of multi year player and the high end 5*, but if Archie can win with something different that is fine.


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[Hardwood83]

4 hours ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

Yet others think if we get 4 stars ranked around 100 or above, it is underwhelming.

What does this base want?

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Speaking only as a single member of the fanbase, I want wins. I have my thoughts and preferences on who I'd like to see IU recruit, but it's secondary to winning.  I'd love a roster heavy on Indiana kids that stay 3-4 years, some redshirt type development guys that improve but play hard all the time and the occasional lottery talent. High bball IQ guys too. Still if Miller can win with a roster of albino midgets and assorted circus freaks, I'll get on board. But with such mediocre results to date, everything will get nit-picked. Winning cures everything.  

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Speaking only as a single member of the fanbase, I want wins. I have my thoughts and preferences on who I'd like to see IU recruit, but it's secondary to winning.  I'd love a roster heavy on Indiana kids that stay 3-4 years, some redshirt type development guys that improve but play hard all the time and the occasional lottery talent. High bball IQ guys too. Still if Miller can win with a roster of albino midgets and assorted circus freaks, I'll get on board. But with such mediocre results to date, everything will get nit-picked. Winning cures everything.  

Yes yes yes.

Also it’s generally considered easier to win with higher rates kids though obviously not universally true.

Just win is right and once that happens trust will be with the coach. Trust is earned.


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[Brass Cannon]

6 hours ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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I want a guy making 3 million a year to not whiff at his top 4-6 options at a position of need. 

[Hovadipo]

22 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I want a guy making 3 million a year to not whiff at his top 4-6 options at a position of need. 

What if he was making 2?