Inclined to Give Archie a Break

[Bigred3588]

I’m sure I’m gonna get slammed by some with the whole “how many years did we waste with Crean blah blah blah,” but hang with me. Let’s look at the roster and what Archie has been working with.

Devonte Green - (Crean Recruit) He’s basically a wash. Has the occasional good performance but his decision making is terrible and hurts the team in ways that don’t show up on the stat sheet. This was one of Creans boom/bust signings and he just hasn’t gotten it together. Also injured for part of the season. Can’t put this on Archie; he didn’t recruit him and he doesn’t have much of an alternative. Plus, Devonte isn’t a pure point.

Rob Phinisee - Overall a plus and looks to be the future floor general, but he’s a freshman that probably wouldn’t be starting yet on most top teams. Still, best option at PG. Injured for part of the season. Plus for Archie on the recruiting front and I fully expect a former D1 PG to develop RP further.

Al Durham - (Crean Recruit) Low ranked combo guard that probably wouldn’t be expected to contribute much until year three. Taking that into consideration, I think he’s most improved and has been a pleasant surprise. However, still not to the point to warrant serious PT. Plus for Archie; I think his staff has done well developing Durham.

Romeo Langford - Limitless potential, but he’s currently a SG that cant really shoot. He excels at finishing but defenses are sagging off and shutting down the driving lanes and we don’t have any shooters to open them up. Also, IMO, he’s too unselfish. He still needs to work on his confidence, realize that he can take over a game, and do it. We’ve seen flashes but we’ve yet to see him really break out. Also, unknown wrist/hand injury. Some people blast Archie for the way he uses Langford, but it would be an ideal scheme for him if we had the shooters.

Damezi Anderson - Clearly not ready to contribute. He is the consummate freshman; lost on both ends of the court. Jury will probably be out for a year or two as Damezi is the kind of guy that’s recruited for development and, eventually, senior leadership. 

Justin Smith - (Crean Recruit) Still a lot of raw, untapped potential. Decent defender but needs a good deal of development on the offensive end and doesn’t make the greatest decisions. Another guy that probably shouldn’t see the kind of PT he’s getting at this point in his career. I’m still withholding judgment because i think the potential is there and I can’t knock Archie because of the limited options.

Juwan Morgan - (Crean Recruit) Juwan had his breakout season under Archie and has picked up where he left off. Love Juwan, but he was never meant to be the feature player. He’s had to play out of position quite a bit and has played his part without complaint. Gotta give him credit for that and he has done it well. It’s just too bad we haven’t had the post players to put him where he belongs. Definitely can’t knock Archie for his development or use of Juwan.

Jerome Hunter - Expected to be an important part of the rotation and hasn’t played due to injury. Not on Archie.

Race Thompson - See Jerome Hunter

De’Ron Davis - (Crean Recruit) I feel bad for Deron because I think he could’ve been a very good player, but I’m not sure he’ll ever really bounce back from the injuries. He just doesn’t have the athleticism or mobility to compete at a high level right now. As much as a like him, he hasn’t been able to contribute. This is not on Archie.

Clifton Moore - (Crean Recruit) Looking like he may work out, but he’s yet another player being thrust into games in which he probably shouldn’t see PT. He’s much like Anderson; a developmental player that’s meant to lay a foundation as an upperclassman. Hard to fault Archie as I suspect he didn’t expect Moore to see the floor much this year, and he has shown flashes of potential.

Jake Forrester - See Clifton Moore, minus the PT. Also, I believe there have been injury issues. Withholding judgment due to lack of a sample size.

Evan Fitzner - Swing and a miss. Archie clearly recognized the need for a guy that could spread the court, but Fitzner hasn’t fit the bill. His defense is downright bad and he contributes nothing on offense. Archie that the right idea, it just didn’t play out as hoped. Archie does lose points for giving Fitzner as much run as he’s had.

All that said, let’s take stock:

1 True PG (Injury), 2 combo guards (1 w/ injury), 2 shooting guards (1 w/ injury), 4 small forwards (2 w/ injuries), 4 power forwards/centers (2 w/ injuries). 

6 Crean recruits - Green, Durham, Smith, Morgan, Davis, Moore

7 Miller Recruits - Phinisee, Langford, Anderson, Hunter, Thompson, Forrester, Fitzner

So, basically, we’ve had 6 scholarship players consistently healthy and one (Langford) playing through injury: Durham, Smith, Morgan, Moore, Anderson, and Fitzner. This equates to 1 backup CG, 1 starting SG, 1 backup SG, 1 starting SF, 1 backup SF, and 2 backup PF/Centers. Not exactly the lineup we were anticipating at the start of the year, and it’s hard to make much progress in practice when it’s basically your backups vs your walk-ons. 

Then we take our 7-8 man rotation of guys, most of which shouldn’t be seeing the kind of minutes they’re getting, and march them out on the court with no leadership. We’re thin on upperclassmen’s as it is and the healthy ones are Green, Morgan, and Fitzner. Hard as it is to believe, Green probably had the personality to do it but just wasn’t capable. Morgan and Fitzner don’t have the personality and were never meant for that role.

[Bgaines99]

I agree with your roster assessment however, Archie hasn’t shown the willingness or knowledge to play to his teams strength which to me is as much as I hated it, Crean’s run & gun no defense philosophy. This is a different team when allowed to push tempo and attack


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[Feathery]

I’m sticking to my belief that a coach gets 3 seasons. I gave Crean 3, I’ll give Archie 3. If we don’t make the NCAA’s this season, then he must next year or he should go. 

[darB s'tI]

Don't know who you are 3588, but I agree with every point you made in your summary. I do feel it's worth mentioning that we have enough talent to do "more" than we are, but we aren't. We have extremely long periods where we can't score at all. And our defense first mindset has disappeared.  In addition, I feel like our players are regressing, which is very, very bad.  Last year felt the same way.  Near mid-January, the team just stopped caring.  Remember watching Robert Johnson and it looked like he'd rather be home on his couch instead of playing?  We have that going on again. I don't get it.

[Josh]

40 minutes ago, IU-DL said:

Don't know who you are 3588, but I agree with every point you made in your summary. I do feel it's worth mentioning that we have enough talent to do "more" than we are, but we aren't. We have extremely long periods where we can't score at all. And our defense first mindset has disappeared.  In addition, I feel like our players are regressing, which is very, very bad.  Last year felt the same way.  Near mid-January, the team just stopped caring.  Remember watching Robert Johnson and it looked like he'd rather be home on his couch instead of playing?  We have that going on again. I don't get it.

That's on the coach

[chitown hoosier]

The thing that bothers me the most is that the state of the program when Cream took over and when Archie took over is completely different. We should be expecting more out of this year's team. We should've expected more out of last year. I am going to be patient but if this team doesn't improve next year, he needs to be replaced. 

[HoosierSadaseci]

Maybe if the team actually looked like it was learning and improving...all the while teams of lesser talent are passing by us, and beating us.  This. Is. Not. Acceptable. 

We continually start off slow,  and the offense has no rhythm, and we're halfway through the season.  This. Is. Not. Acceptable. 

[pumpfake]

Well stated, Bigred.  Really mirrors my thoughts closely.  You overlooked McRoberts - a good kid who hustles and plays unselfishly.  A team with aspirations of competing for titles doesn't have walk-on logging major minutes, let alone starting.  Just another indicator of the current lack of players ready to play significant minutes.

In Miller's Lone recruiting class we're seeing good contribution, and it could be even better if not for Hunter's medical issue.

I think we fans might have overlooked how depleted the roster was before Archie coached his first game here.  An NIT flop, then losing a shooter and front court starter (areas we remain short on).

I'm not ready to pass judgment on CAM, but while impressed with his recruiting results I hoped for better results and player development than what we've seen to this point.  I truly believe the staff knows what needs to be fixed, and couldn't have anticipated the injuries.

 

[Chris007]

I really liked this quote from the Herald Times Jeremy Price. It's where I'm at after being around this team some.

The suspension of Devonte Green before Tuesday’s game perhaps only further punctuates the gap that still exists between the soft, decaying leftovers of the previous coaching regime and the necessary buy-in to Miller’s tougher, blue-collar approach.

[HoosierCoop]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I really liked this quote from the Herald Times Jeremy Price. It's where I'm at after being around this team some.

The suspension of Devonte Green before Tuesday’s game perhaps only further punctuates the gap that still exists between the soft, decaying leftovers of the previous coaching regime and the necessary buy-in to Miller’s tougher, blue-collar approach.

Agree Chris and BigRed.

I have a long commute and had time to settle down.

My exact thoughts driving in this morning.

You can blame the captain, but if the boat has holes going against a 20 foot wave, there is only so much the captain can do.

[Maedhros]

37 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I really liked this quote from the Herald Times Jeremy Price. It's where I'm at after being around this team some.

The suspension of Devonte Green before Tuesday’s game perhaps only further punctuates the gap that still exists between the soft, decaying leftovers of the previous coaching regime and the necessary buy-in to Miller’s tougher, blue-collar approach.

Genuine question, because you're around the team and I'm not: Which leftovers are not buying in? Devonte, sure. But Juwan is our MVP. I have no concerns with De'Ron when he's been able to play, he just hasn't been healthy all year. Same could be said for Zach, who may lack skills but I don't think has ever been accused of lacking buy-in. No one else on the team was ever coached by the previous regime. 

[Honkyman]

Actually, the only current IU player who is both basketball savvy and not soft is Juwan Morgan who was not recruited by Archie. Watching last night, I was struck by how lacking in good basketball judgment most of our players are.  Over and over Rob Phinisee drives into a crowd of bigs for a layup only to have his shot blocked (although his dunk was sweet). Justin Smith can't finish on many of his shots because he seems to be going for a highlight dunk instead of an easy lay-in.  Aside from the occasional hustle play, McRoberts can't shoot, is a poor defensive player and has a tendency to cough up the ball.  Romeo is a great talent but too often he exercises poor judgment and shoots a 3-pointer when he isn't really open or when nobody is underneath to rebound if/when he misses. Yes, Archie is here to stay and I believe the vast majority of fans are all inclined to give him latitude. But he clearly hasn't figured out how to coach this team.   It's time to go with Al Durham--he makes more than his share of boneheaded moves but he plays with grit and at least is capable of hitting a few shots. Archie has to fix the offense which is absolutely dreadful and find a way to guard against the 3-point shot (his pack line defense has yet to prove itself). There were times down the stretch last night when this team looked good but they couldn't get over the hump--they dug too deep a hole. Archie has to find a way to get the team to play with intelligence and consistency.

[southernindianahoosier2]

This is where I am. No tourney next year and the fanbase will demand a change. Things are pretty dicey even now. 
The AD, on the other hand, should have been fired yesterday.

Fred and McRobbie are safe until McRobbie Retires hopefully in 2020/2021. At that point we’ll have a new president and then Fred Glass can be canned. Does anyone know if the board of trustees are smart enough to make the right hire for the presidency?


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[Chris007]

1 minute ago, Maedhros said:

Genuine question, because you're around the team and I'm not: Which leftovers are not buying in? Devonte, sure. But Juwan is our MVP. I have no concerns with De'Ron when he's been able to play, he just hasn't been healthy all year. Same could be said for Zach, who may lack skills but I don't think has ever been accused of lacking buy-in. No one else on the team was ever coached by the previous regime. 

Not that they were ever coached by Crean, but they were his recruits. He was recruiting a certain type of kid who just doesn't fit the mold that Archie is trying to bring in. These kids have never had to play the defense that Archie wants them to play. Even Romeo, for the most part, hasn't ever had to really guard someone. I think Archie is wanting them to do things, that I'm just not sure they can do or his communicating skills are not getting the message across. 

[Josh]

37 minutes ago, HoosierCoop said:

Agree Chris and BigRed.

I have a long commute and had time to settle down.

My exact thoughts driving in this morning.

You can blame the captain, but if the boat has holes going against a 20 foot wave, there is only so much the captain can do.

Was Northwestern a bigger wave than us?  Nebraska?  Fort Wayne?  Indiana State?  This captain can't guide a boat through a retention pond.

[Chris007]

8 minutes ago, Josh said:

Was Northwestern a bigger wave than us?  Nebraska?  Fort Wayne?  Indiana State?  This captain can't guide a boat through a retention pond.

Northwestern played us tough twice and has some nice pieces. Nebraska is just better than us right now starting 4 or 5 seniors who have been around the big ten for a couple of years. Not sure about the other two games, I believe they were last year. Good luck finding someone who wants the job after you fire a guy a year in a half into his contract. 

[bigrod]

1 hour ago, chitown hoosier said:

The thing that bothers me the most is that the state of the program when Cream took over and when Archie took over is completely different. We should be expecting more out of this year's team. We should've expected more out of last year. I am going to be patient but if this team doesn't improve next year, he needs to be replaced. 

I firmly believe the program was on a definite downward trend and was probably worse off than many believe in Crean's last year. The three recruits were all projects. I would argue that Al is farther along than most expected as a soph. This could be debated forever, but last year's team would have been in the bottom 5 of the B1G with Crean coaching.

Having said that, CAM is stubbornly not attempting to play to the current team's strengths. As frustrating as that is, I get it. He is trying to change the culture and I'm sure he is unwilling to bend on many things. My guess is that he feels that the more he gives in on this year, the more it drags out the transition.

[Trish]

Great post, I fully agree with your roster assessment. Throw in our injuries, our inability to shoot anywhere and it's bound to be messy.

Ask the Lakers how they are doing with no shooters and a poor free throw shooting team? They are out of the playoff race, Injuries plagued them along with no shooters. It's ugly. 

[Chris007]

5 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I firmly believe the program was on a definite downward trend and was probably worse off than many believe in Crean's last year. The three recruits were all projects. I would argue that Al is farther along than most expected as a soph. This could be debated forever, but last year's team would have been in the bottom 5 of the B1G with Crean coaching.

Having said that, CAM is stubbornly not attempting to play to the current team's strengths. As frustrating as that is, I get it. He is trying to change the culture and I'm sure he is unwilling to bend on many things. My guess is that he feels that the more he gives in on this year, the more it drags out the transition.

I totally agree with what you said. People forget that Archie took over an NIT team who lost their 3 leading scorers. 

[HoosierCoop]

17 minutes ago, Josh said:

Was Northwestern a bigger wave than us?  Nebraska?  Fort Wayne?  Indiana State?  This captain can't guide a boat through a retention pond.

As of now they are a bigger wave.

FW, ISU??? 1st few games of last year and we improved from that.

Archie....

Can't make them make free throws

Can't make them not injured

Can't make them hit 3-point shots

Can't make our bench productive in a game situation

So what do you want Archie to do different?  Sub differently? Switch the offense geared for the outside shot?

I want this team to turn around as bad as anyone what do you do?