COMPLAIN HERE!

[Hovadipo 56,516]

Let's steer things away from race please. No harm done, but not a path we should head down.

Thanks!

[ebridges24 2,445]

34 minutes ago, mamasa said:

He's Native American, not from India

He'll always be an "engine" to me!

[Muskie for three 307]

1 minute ago, Rico said:

I know an American Indian.  He is from Punjab.

Thuggee from  the Punjab province maybe . 

[Five Prime 1,093]

36 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

The saga on Sampson is an interesting case study on implicit bias.  A group of Indiana basketball fans, comprised of largely middle aged caucasian males, latches onto the main reason for the program's implosion in 2008 to be due to an African American coach's inability to control a roster of largely young African American players because of "drug dealers and pimps".  It feels kind of gross saying it like this. 

--

I fixed this for you. The only way to move forward is to speak as the overwhelming majority of the population think. It is 2024 not 1957. It was 2008 - Indiana elected our first African American President and voted blue, an extreme outlier in historical voting records of our state. Implicit Bias for a basketball coach, but not for our President?

Implicit Bias for IU basketball fans is a hard conclusion for me to get to as IU fans (in 2008 and today) idolize(d): Isaiah Thomas, Buckner, Cheaney, Guyton, Gordon, Walt Bellamy, McGinnis, Woodson, May, Henderson, and Jeffries. I just can't be convinced and personally a comment that incites racial rhetoric that is presented w/o evidence is not appreciated. Our country, our state, and Indiana University have hurdled many challenges over the past 75 years in regard to race relations and equality - a comment like this sets us back, creates unneeded divide, and disservices the work of our ancestors to make a better place for us all. 

I do understand where the idea can come up though - Dan Dakich did put it out that players were selling/using drugs, and he did call them thugs. Which, if true, is absolutely worth bringing up - though I don't know the factualness of the claim, so I won't comment. 

We are not white/black/Asian Americans - Just Americans. 

I get it, trust me.  Its great to say we are all Americans, I agree.  This comment however, does not set us back.  Achnowledging our implicit biases helps us move forward actually.  If you want to ignore that racism still exists in this country (particularly in rural Indiana) thats fine.  In my opinion it's an ugly, yet very real part of the rationalization made on numerous message boards and fansites over the last 15 years about how all that went down.  Go ahead and ignore it.  

[Hornsby 2,107]

Let's steer things away from race please. No harm done, but not a path we should head down.
Thanks!

Yep agree

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[Dave from Dayton 3,264]

I refuse to ignore the Little 500 race.  Or that other one in Indy whatever it is called...held on Memorial Day weekend.  

[southernindianahoosier2 902]

5 hours ago, Dave from Dayton said:

Actually, I agree with this post...somewhat.  I had been referring to the period from 2000 - 2008.  IU churned through 5 head coaches in that time.  RMK, MD, S, DD, TC...

IU, most likely, reached out to a number of top coaches.  I remember discussion about Few and others.  No dice.  So IU went with Tom Crean.  Damaged goods...   Heck I knew about Crean.  Lived in Wisconsin for years after living in Indiana.  

IU just was not attractive to prospective coaching hires.  Why?  Because the Administration was not in support of sports.  They had thrown RMK under the bus.  They set Mike Davis up to fail.  They set Sampson up to fail.  Dan D never ever was considered HC material because of his less than excellent personal charm.  

So yes, IU then held on to Tom Crean because they were apparently afraid of more churning.  Plus every so often Tom Crean was competitive at the top of the Big Ten.  But, they could see that he could not sustain it.  Flim-flam salespeople do not necessarily make great strategists or tacticians.  

Some think that Archie Miller was a flash in the pan.   I lived in Dayton and attended a few UD games and watched a lot of them.  Archie Miller is a good coach.  He was successful before UD.  He was incredibly successful at UD.  Took a UD team that Brian Gregory had screwed up and left the cupboard bare.  

But in my opinion, IU Administration did not support Archie Miller as they have Coach Woodson.  Nuff said.

I say give Coach Woodson time.  Sure, he is human.  He has screwed up in recruiting guards and shooters.  And that platooning substitution is controversial.  But there are benefits, long term, to that platooning strategy.  (From his perspective, I guess.  And I am trying to see it too.)

Am I happy about any or all of this.  No. 

But I am afraid of churning coaches...throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Unless the Administration has an experienced winning coach lined up.   Yeah, right.  $8 million a year and a buyout.  With the prospective coach wondering about the support from the Administration.  That is why they hired Archie Miller and Tom Crean.  This is so very messed up.  I think that they could get the money.  I just doubt they could land THE coach.  I speculate that they have tried multiple times.  We would not know.  

What do you mean we didn’t support Archie? 
 

I know a huge issue with Creans non-con schedule was actually Glass wouldn’t pay to have the ranked teams from 200-30 come play us which forced Crean to play cupcakes that were 300-360 in ranking. When Archie came in he was in disbelief and Glass upped his budget in response.

[go iu bb 6,240]

1 hour ago, JF87 said:

Tom Izzo had issues at Michigan State that are as bad as what Alford did at Iowa.  

Maybe even worse since he's had stuff like that happen under his watch multiple times and is willing to look the other way. I don't know if Izzo has ever tried to intimidate a victim, though.

[JF87 1,503]

4 hours ago, Five Prime said:

The saga on Sampson is an interesting case study on implicit bias.  A group of Indiana basketball fans, comprised of largely middle aged caucasian males, latches onto the main reason for the program's implosion in 2008 to be due to an African American coach's inability to control a roster of largely young African American players because of "drug dealers and pimps".  It feels kind of gross saying it like this. 

If you want to look at the world through lenses that see racism everywhere that's your prerogative.  However, the case with Sampson had nothing to do with racism.  I don't know how old you are or your history of following IU basketball.  We had a coach in Bob Knight that was successful, tried following NCAA rules, and graduated players.  As alumni and fans we took pride in that. Bob Knight had his personal flaws, but he ran the program the right way.  The Bob Knight way.  The IU way.  After Mike Davis, Sampson came in and fans were excited.  We had hired a winner.  There was a minor issue with extra phone calls at Oklahoma, but we were certain he wouldn't do that IU.  Why would he?  It's IU, he wouldn't need to.  Jump forward 1.5 years and we find out that Sampson and a coach were violating NCAA rules about phone calls at IU.  The reaction was "we don't cheat here". Minor infraction here was compounded because when he was hired he told the administration that it would not happen at IU.  Sampson and assistant coach Rob Senderhoff (Caucasian) both resigned under pressure.  Dan Dakich assumed the interim coach role.  After the season, Dakich released several players from the squad for academic and player issues.  Other players chose to transfer.  When Tom Crean took over I remember him saying that we are going to have student athletes and no longer have players majoring in eligibility.  

So, Sampson wasn't fired because of race.  He was fired for not holding himself, his coaching staff, and his players to the high standards that we should have at IU.  The Knight way, the IU way, the right way. 

Edited January 29, 2024 by JF87

[JF87 1,503]

1 minute ago, go iu bb said:

Maybe even worse since he's had stuff like that happen under his watch multiple times and is willing to look the other way. I don't know if Izzo has ever tried to intimidate a victim, though.

Izzo and his staff spoke to a witness prior to the police speaking with them.  Could be an innocent mistake, but it looks bad. 

[Mopladysman 303]

11 minutes ago, JF87 said:

If you want to look at the world through lenses that see racism everywhere that's your prerogative.  However, the case with Sampson had nothing to do with racism.  I don't know how old you are or your history of following IU basketball.  We had a coach in Bob Knight that was successful, tried following NCAA rules, and graduated players.  As alumni and fans we took pride in that. Bob Knight had his personal flaws, but he ran the program the right way.  The Bob Knight way.  The IU way.  After Mike Davis, Sampson came in and fans were excited.  We had hired a winner.  There was a minor issue with extra phone calls at Oklahoma, but we were certain he wouldn't do that IU.  Why would he?  It's IU, he wouldn't need to.  Jump forward 1.5 years and we find out that Sampson and a coach were violating NCAA rules about phone calls at IU.  The reaction was "we don't cheat here". Minor infraction here was compounded because when he was hired he told the administration that it would not happen at IU.  Samson and assistant coach Rob Senderhoff (Caucasian) both resigned under pressure.  Dan Dakich assumed the interim coach role.  After the season, Dakich released several players from the squad for academic and player issues.  Other players chose to transfer.  When Tom Crean took over I remember him saying that we are going to have student athletes and no longer have players majoring in eligibility.  

So, Sampson wasn't fired because of race.  He was fired for not holding himself, his coaching staff, and his players to the high standards that we should have at IU.  The Knight way, the IU way, the right way. 

Thank you thank you thank you

[go iu bb 6,240]

12 minutes ago, JF87 said:

Izzo and his staff spoke to a witness prior to the police speaking with them.  Could be an innocent mistake, but it looks bad. 

Indeed. I don't pay much attention to MSU so I was unaware of that. I doubt it's any more innocent than what Alford did. They all knew what they were doing. So since he's done the same as Alford, I say he's even worse simply because of the number of times. 

[southernindianahoosier2 902]

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1751982879653982479?s=46&t=GNOEavceU8cQkgwtjpMssw
 

Would love to see a strategic vision like this out of IU

[Dave from Dayton 3,264]

1 hour ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

What do you mean we didn’t support Archie? 
 

I know a huge issue with Creans non-con schedule was actually Glass wouldn’t pay to have the ranked teams from 200-30 come play us which forced Crean to play cupcakes that were 300-360 in ranking. When Archie came in he was in disbelief and Glass upped his budget in response.

I perceived, correctly or incorrectly, that IU did not support Archie Miller in certain ways.  He had a really good guard recruited to land at Dayton.  Coach Miller and that recruit discussed the possibility of asking out of that commitment and getting a new LOI and scholarship at Indiana.  Archie then, within a week or so, changed his mind about offering a scholarship.  The recruit got out of his LOI with Dayton and went..ahem...elsewhere.  IU then had Josh Newkirk.  Not the best point guard in the Big Ten.  A lot less talent than X, today.  Why did IU not allow Archie to bring in his recruit?

We also had some locker-room issues left over from previous years.  And was Archie Miller able to 'Crean' them to control that?  No.  Why? Because of the Student-Athlete Bill of Rights or some such.  That and the APR.

And was Archie Miller's recruiting allowed to reach out?  Well, contrary to what happened with Tom Crean...burning bridges with Indiana high school coaches, Archie did focus on Indiana.  With mixed success.  

I reflect on what the post, above, says about Glass upping Miller's budget.  I did not hear or see that.  Interesting.  Tom Crean had a huge recruiting budget.  Flew everywhere with assistants.  Made offers with anyone who made eye contact.    

At UD Archie got the teams to perform better than the sum of their parts.  Archie failed that at IU.  Why?  Was it that the Indiana players were brought in under a different coach and scheme.  (ie.  Run faster. vs Methodical and Pack line Defense.)  Fans were used to flash.   Booed Archie and the team.   Blame to the head coach.  Routine.

Fans wanted the Crean flim-flam flash back.  Well, vocal ones did.  Social media loaded up on Archie Miller.  Without a point guard that was one of the best in the Big Ten and a team that did not buy into the pack line defense.  It was over.

Archie Miller, in my opinion was not a flash in the pan.  He was the flavor of the year as a mid-major coach that turned Dayton around and got into the NCAAT and graduated players.  Now people, some on this site, are suggesting up and coming coaches as prospects.  That was Archie Miller.

He was not a good fit at IU.  Could he have been?  Under different conditions?  Those are not the correct set of questions.

I did not have Archie Miller on my short list when his name was announced.   I thought, like a lot of fans, that he knew his X's and O's.  He was a great coach at Dayton.   But we wondered if that would transfer well to Indiana.  Could he recruit?  Could he handle players with larger egos?  Could he handle a P5 basketball first large university?  It was a huge risk.  But the Administration was trying something different.  A successful mid-major, when others were not interested.  That and/or they had serious warts that Archie Miller did not have.  

[JF87 1,503]

I'm tired of Texas complaining about the Horns Down taunt.  If you want to flash Horns Up when you win, you have to live with Horns Down when you lose.  Texas should quit whining. If you want the chants to stop, just win the game.  I don't care when opposing fans chant Hoosier Daddy.  That chant is at least 30 years old.  Jokes on them that they can't come up with anything new.    

[southernindianahoosier2 902]

4 hours ago, Dave from Dayton said:

I perceived, correctly or incorrectly, that IU did not support Archie Miller in certain ways.  He had a really good guard recruited to land at Dayton.  Coach Miller and that recruit discussed the possibility of asking out of that commitment and getting a new LOI and scholarship at Indiana.  Archie then, within a week or so, changed his mind about offering a scholarship.  The recruit got out of his LOI with Dayton and went..ahem...elsewhere.  IU then had Josh Newkirk.  Not the best point guard in the Big Ten.  A lot less talent than X, today.  Why did IU not allow Archie to bring in his recruit?

We also had some locker-room issues left over from previous years.  And was Archie Miller able to 'Crean' them to control that?  No.  Why? Because of the Student-Athlete Bill of Rights or some such.  That and the APR.

And was Archie Miller's recruiting allowed to reach out?  Well, contrary to what happened with Tom Crean...burning bridges with Indiana high school coaches, Archie did focus on Indiana.  With mixed success.  

I reflect on what the post, above, says about Glass upping Miller's budget.  I did not hear or see that.  Interesting.  Tom Crean had a huge recruiting budget.  Flew everywhere with assistants.  Made offers with anyone who made eye contact.    

At UD Archie got the teams to perform better than the sum of their parts.  Archie failed that at IU.  Why?  Was it that the Indiana players were brought in under a different coach and scheme.  (ie.  Run faster. vs Methodical and Pack line Defense.)  Fans were used to flash.   Booed Archie and the team.   Blame to the head coach.  Routine.

Fans wanted the Crean flim-flam flash back.  Well, vocal ones did.  Social media loaded up on Archie Miller.  Without a point guard that was one of the best in the Big Ten and a team that did not buy into the pack line defense.  It was over.

Archie Miller, in my opinion was not a flash in the pan.  He was the flavor of the year as a mid-major coach that turned Dayton around and got into the NCAAT and graduated players.  Now people, some on this site, are suggesting up and coming coaches as prospects.  That was Archie Miller.

He was not a good fit at IU.  Could he have been?  Under different conditions?  Those are not the correct set of questions.

I did not have Archie Miller on my short list when his name was announced.   I thought, like a lot of fans, that he knew his X's and O's.  He was a great coach at Dayton.   But we wondered if that would transfer well to Indiana.  Could he recruit?  Could he handle players with larger egos?  Could he handle a P5 basketball first large university?  It was a huge risk.  But the Administration was trying something different.  A successful mid-major, when others were not interested.  That and/or they had serious warts that Archie Miller did not have.  

Ya I remember hearing about the APR issues. Wasn’t the player in question Obi Toppin? 
 

My personal opinion is that there’s no scenario in which Archie is successful here. I’m not denying that the admin probably hamstrung him a bit. But the head coach at IU not only has to lead his team but also the fan base.

Crean was too bizarre, Archie too meh, etc.

Why is it so hard for us to find a coach that will just sit down with Don F or the assembly call and state “here’s the reality of what I’m looking to eliminate, here’s what I’m looking to add, and here’s how we’re gonna do it” vs the classic coach speak of “we just have to get over the hump, we didn’t make shots” 

The moment the coach of IU stops being real with the fans is when we turn. We’re either your biggest asset or liability, and they just seem to ignore us. 
 

If I was AD at IU I’d tell the bball coach to pick a podcast just speak the truth about your vision to the fans

[coonhounds 9,074]

I perceived, correctly or incorrectly, that IU did not support Archie Miller in certain ways.  He had a really good guard recruited to land at Dayton.  Coach Miller and that recruit discussed the possibility of asking out of that commitment and getting a new LOI and scholarship at Indiana.  Archie then, within a week or so, changed his mind about offering a scholarship.  The recruit got out of his LOI with Dayton and went..ahem...elsewhere.  IU then had Josh Newkirk.  Not the best point guard in the Big Ten.  A lot less talent than X, today.  Why did IU not allow Archie to bring in his recruit?
We also had some locker-room issues left over from previous years.  And was Archie Miller able to 'Crean' them to control that?  No.  Why? Because of the Student-Athlete Bill of Rights or some such.  That and the APR.
And was Archie Miller's recruiting allowed to reach out?  Well, contrary to what happened with Tom Crean...burning bridges with Indiana high school coaches, Archie did focus on Indiana.  With mixed success.  
I reflect on what the post, above, says about Glass upping Miller's budget.  I did not hear or see that.  Interesting.  Tom Crean had a huge recruiting budget.  Flew everywhere with assistants.  Made offers with anyone who made eye contact.    
At UD Archie got the teams to perform better than the sum of their parts.  Archie failed that at IU.  Why?  Was it that the Indiana players were brought in under a different coach and scheme.  (ie.  Run faster. vs Methodical and Pack line Defense.)  Fans were used to flash.   Booed Archie and the team.   Blame to the head coach.  Routine.
Fans wanted the Crean flim-flam flash back.  Well, vocal ones did.  Social media loaded up on Archie Miller.  Without a point guard that was one of the best in the Big Ten and a team that did not buy into the pack line defense.  It was over.
Archie Miller, in my opinion was not a flash in the pan.  He was the flavor of the year as a mid-major coach that turned Dayton around and got into the NCAAT and graduated players.  Now people, some on this site, are suggesting up and coming coaches as prospects.  That was Archie Miller.
He was not a good fit at IU.  Could he have been?  Under different conditions?  Those are not the correct set of questions.
I did not have Archie Miller on my short list when his name was announced.   I thought, like a lot of fans, that he knew his X's and O's.  He was a great coach at Dayton.   But we wondered if that would transfer well to Indiana.  Could he recruit?  Could he handle players with larger egos?  Could he handle a P5 basketball first large university?  It was a huge risk.  But the Administration was trying something different.  A successful mid-major, when others were not interested.  That and/or they had serious warts that Archie Miller did not have.  

Dude Archie Miller had his opportunity here. He had support but he was terrible. I do however believe whole heartedly he is a better coach than Woodson. Neither coach can teach shooting though lol

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[Ryno6284 2,693]

I'm sick and effing tired of the Chiefs!  Man, I wanted Lions vs. Ravens in the Super Bowl!

[incrediboy 925]

I could come up with more, but I think it's enough to complain that I'm old, I'm tired and my music isn't selling that great.

[coonhounds 9,074]

I'm sick and effing tired of the Chiefs!  Man, I wanted Lions vs. Ravens in the Super Bowl!

I think everyone is. I wish the chiefs fans you know would quit wasting all their fan luck on that trash team and bring some luck to the Hoosiers!

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