Style of Play

[Hoosierfan2017 19,886]

18 minutes ago, Muskie for three said:

I'm worried they won't pony up on the big get . The one that makes a difference . Not portal but sisley better have a better than 250000  nil coming in and Harrelson you sell the freaking farm.  Adapt or die 

This will be controversial, but I wish that they wouldn’t waste NIL money on players of Leal’s caliber. No offense to him, but he played 24 minutes this season. He played 11 minutes in conference play. Those are walk-on numbers. I’d rather all our money go to contributors. 

[Ryno6284 2,517]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This will be controversial, but I wish that they wouldn’t waste NIL money on players of Leal’s caliber. No offense to him, but he played 24 minutes this season. He played 11 minutes in conference play. Those are walk-on numbers. I’d rather all our money go to contributors. 

I don't think Leal's NIL money takes any away from the big boy NIL deals!  But what the hell do I know about NIL?

[Muskie for three 267]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This will be controversial, but I wish that they wouldn’t waste NIL money on players of Leal’s caliber. No offense to him, but he played 24 minutes this season. He played 11 minutes in conference play. Those are walk-on numbers. I’d rather all our money go to contributors. 

Well leal would be  legendary to walk on and open up a scholly for the shopping cart .

[Honkyman 1,670]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This will be controversial, but I wish that they wouldn’t waste NIL money on players of Leal’s caliber.

Leal's NIL has no impact on any other player.

[Hoosierfan2017 19,886]

18 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Leal's NIL has no impact on any other player.

We don’t have unlimited NIL funds. If we did, we wouldn’t get outbid on top transfers. Idk how much players get in NIL. Say Leal got $50k this year. If the giver of that $50k didn’t give it to Leal, they’d have an extra $50k to throw at a package for someone else. Leal paying off his sister’s loans is a nice story, but it doesn’t help IU win basketball games. I only care about our NIL going toward Ws. 

[MemphisHoosier 1,914]

Eh, I do think there is a bit of team hygiene with ensuring that everyone gets a bite of the NIL apple.  If only the rotation players were to get paid I can only imagine what that would do to the team chemistry.  I think the bigger question is, how are the collectives tiering NIL investment across the the 13 scholarships?

[RaceToTheTop 23,572]

12 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We don’t have unlimited NIL funds. If we did, we wouldn’t get outbid on top transfers. Idk how much players get in NIL. Say Leal got $50k this year. If the giver of that $50k didn’t give it to Leal, they’d have an extra $50k to throw at a package for someone else. Leal paying off his sister’s loans is a nice story, but it doesn’t help IU win basketball games. I only care about our NIL going toward Ws. 

Or the giver of the $50k might not give it at all.  Also wouldn't surprise me if most of Leal's NIL money is coming from the real estate business he works for.  It's great advertising for them.

[Golfman25 4,652]

22 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Or the giver of the $50k might not give it at all.  Also wouldn't surprise me if most of Leal's NIL money is coming from the real estate business he works for.  It's great advertising for them.

Right.  Some are looking at the NIL as a General Manager's budget.  And certainly, some is, wink, wink.  I assume the big money comes from the collective.  But these guys are free to cut their own deals as well.  If Campus Cars wants to run an ad campaign with the likes of Leal, etc. they are free to do it.  Kind of crazy that there is zero transparency on these things.  Big problems ahead, imo.  

[Golfman25 4,652]

2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Probably not a popular opinion, but I believe the staff needs to do a better job developing the "bench," if it wants the bench / younger or less-experienced players to be productive (it should). The what-I-see-as-extreme over-use of certain veteran players - experience, over frosh or more raw players who bring athleticism and raw talent that needs in-game development, holds us back. Miami is a hyper athletic, attacking team, it itself is an extreme example, but that's the kind of team we struggled with, and rolling out the same players and minutes while guys sit on the bench and don't develop is a crutch. 

Yes, we need talent from the portal. But we also need better player development. (TJD developed beautifully, but that was never a question. Gallo developed a nice outside shot, but it was there to develop last season.) Crean, for another extreme example, wasn't a strong x's and o's coach (captain obvious again), but he developed multiple players well. That's one part of improving a team. Imo, it needs improvement under this staff.

A lot (say 80%) of player development is on the player.  The coaches and staff can give him a road map, but it's really up to the player to put in the work.  Some guys have it, some don't.  Recruiting attitude goes a long way with it.    

[go iu bb 4,786]

49 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We don’t have unlimited NIL funds. If we did, we wouldn’t get outbid on top transfers. Idk how much players get in NIL. Say Leal got $50k this year. If the giver of that $50k didn’t give it to Leal, they’d have an extra $50k to throw at a package for someone else. Leal paying off his sister’s loans is a nice story, but it doesn’t help IU win basketball games. I only care about our NIL going toward Ws. 

I think you and others are confusing what all NIL entails. It comes in many forms.

It's not just a collective fund set up by boosters or whoever that people donate into which is then used to pay the players. There certainly are those.

There are also the Hoosier Hysterics event which people pay to attend and the money is distributed to the players. 

Those above are zero sum so the more given to any individual player means less for the others. The money all gets paid out so it will go to the players no matter what. I think we can all agree on that. 

However, individual companies can choose to sponsor the players in return for endorsements. There are a lot more factors in this but what it comes down to is that just that money is not guaranteed to go to players no matter what. Let's say Player A gets an endorsement deal for Company X. Player A then graduates, transfers, quits basketball, or whatever but isn't part of the team anymore. Company X decides to not renew the deal with Player A but that doesn't mean they'll turn around and give the money to Player B. They might but they might also decide it doesn't make sense. 

An example of this is that Leal works in real estate. He probably gets paid for advertising for them as well. It just makes sense. If he leaves the team, would it make sense to pay another player with no other connections to real estate to endorse them? Maybe, maybe not. It certainly isn't guaranteed that they would.

Players could also set up their own basketball camps, write a book about about basketball, makes social media pages that get sponsorships dependent on the number of followers they have, sell their own merchandise, etc, etc. These are things that if they aren't doing then the money certainly wouldn't just shift to another player on the team.

So just because Leal is making NIL money it doesn't mean he's taking money other players would've gotten if he wasn't at IU.

[Scotty R 1,897]

7 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

^^ Yeah, absolutely no question we need to build with long and athletic forwards / wings, to go with strong guard play.

I'm not sold that Woodson will emphasize outside shooting -- I don't think it should be overlooked that we clearly had good shooting this season but still shot a low number of outside shots by volume, the kickouts were few and far in-between (though TJD got a lot better at kickouts from the double-t) and that was part of the problem.

We need much better rebounding to go along with the transition game. How this all translates to Malik's role and emphasis remains to be seen, but I've got no concerns with him, his footwork and rebounding ability is excellent, I'm sure he'll be much better avoiding fouling as a soph.

I am pretty sure this is correct but in his first year with the Knicks they broke the NBA record at the time for most 3 pointers 

[HoosierHoopster 6,028]

Just now, Golfman25 said:

A lot (say 80%) of player development is on the player.  The coaches and staff can give him a road map, but it's really up to the player to put in the work.  Some guys have it, some don't.  Recruiting attitude goes a long way with it.    

Certainly partly true, but your 80 percent is random and ignores that some programs / coaches develop players better than others. Again, Crean / staff developed multiple guys well. You don’t develop just practicing and then riding the bench, and the team is limited if it can’t bring in players off the bench and later as starters for matchups etc 

[Scotty R 1,897]

4 hours ago, Chris007 said:

Current

No current player is worth big money. If true don't let the door hit you on the backside going out.

[go iu bb 4,786]

2 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Certainly partly true, but your 80 percent is random and ignores that some programs / coaches develop players better than others. Again, Crean / staff developed multiple guys well. You don’t develop just practicing and then riding the bench, and the team is limited if it can’t bring in players off the bench and later as starters for matchups etc 

That's true but I doubt most of the development is in games. Most of it happens in the offseason. Playing experience helps but I don't think it's the driving force for development.

Knight was good at developing players. Crean was also good although he thought he was better than he actually was so he'd bring in lots of longshots to try to develop which hurt the team. Miller was not just terrible at it but under him players seemed more likely to regress than to improve. I can't remember if Davis was good at it and Sampson wasn't here very long but he's good at it. 

So IU hasn't had good coaching along with good development since the Knight years. In the 2 seasons under Woodson, we have seen incremental improvement of some players. Some having really developed at all and there hasn't been a huge leap in improvement by any 1 player yet.

[Hoosier Roots 720]

2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Crean, for another extreme example, wasn't a strong x's and o's coach (captain obvious again), but he developed multiple players well.

I hope you’re just talking about offensive development lol 

[realTomCrean 1,470]

Speaking of NIL, can’t wait to see the end of season results on earnings 

[DChoosier 7,055]

6 hours ago, Chris007 said:

If what's being said is true I think we will see a different style next season. I think the coaches want 4 guys on the court at all times who can take someone off the dribble. We'll see. It's going to be a different team for sure. I think the asking price by some of the players will be too high and IU will tell them to hit the road. 

You mentioned Malik coming back so I wonder who you are referencing in regards to wanting a lot more NIL money.  Among Bates, Gunn, Banks, Duncomb, Leal, Geronimo…who the hell  thinks they are in position to get a huge payday?

I’m curious to hear which names you have heard are looking for a big raise. Kind of interesting/perplexing.

[Golfman25 4,652]

2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Certainly partly true, but your 80 percent is random and ignores that some programs / coaches develop players better than others. Again, Crean / staff developed multiple guys well. You don’t develop just practicing and then riding the bench, and the team is limited if it can’t bring in players off the bench and later as starters for matchups etc 

It’s the difference between practicing until you get it right and practicing until you can’t get it wrong.  Very few do the latter. 

[Trish 11,408]

A change of style would be much appreciated. We all know how great TJD was, but that style of basketball is no longer cool and doesn’t translate to the NBA. 
 

I would love to see Woodson bring a more modern NBA offense to this program, more DHO’s, more shooting, less posts up, etc. 

 

In regards to the portal, I wouldn’t mind a fresh restart besides keeping Trey. A rebuilding year this year would be nice, as a chance of being a title contender next year is a complete dream. 24 and 25 class needs to bring talent and obviously the portal could bring anything. 

[hoosierbgh 1,227]

12 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This will be controversial, but I wish that they wouldn’t waste NIL money on players of Leal’s caliber. No offense to him, but he played 24 minutes this season. He played 11 minutes in conference play. Those are walk-on numbers. I’d rather all our money go to contributors. 

It is never going to, that's simply not reality. There's always going to be 1-3 players at the end of the bench that don't get much play barring injury or foul trouble. Some will move up the depth chart, some will move on but all will be replaced by others.