They Fired Tom Allen!

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,619]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

1. Urban Meyer is an excellent, winning football coach.
2. Urban Meyer, in my opinion, is a dirtbag.
3. There are excellent, winning football coaches that are not dirtbags.

Summary takeaway? A school does not need to hire a dirtbag to get an excellent, winning football coach.

Sure he can be a scumbag... find a football coach that doesn't have skeletons in their closet... or I should say, find a good football coach without any.

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

And while Kingsbury would also not have interest in IUFB,  I am not sure why he is an attractive option for any team.

Kingsbury's head coaching record? 

• College: 36-38, 19-35 in conference.
• Pro: 28-37

Wommack makes $772k/$1.7m after bonuses. That could work.

Randle El has never been a head coach but he truly has a Mike Woodson affection for IU, and while he would be a dice roll as a P5 head coach, that could also work.

As for Kingsbury, he just brings a fun offense. And Indiana needs that again IMO. Kevin Wilson brought an excitement to Indiana football. God awful defenses that ruined multiple seasons, but something seemed to be building before he was fired with back to back bowl games. And how many 5 win teams can boast a top offense in the nation? That's my only reason for Kingsbury.

[NashvilleHoosier 3,678]

I can't believe Urban Meyer's name is even being brought up, for so many different reasons. So I'll just take it as a joke.

If this season ends up another clunker, regardless of money, I think we have to move on. If we end up in a bowl game, he rightfully stays. Since I felt like the UofL game was pretty much a must have to make it to a bowl game, I'm now assuming this will be another clunker.

Looking around the rest of CFB, it seems fairly likely there will be fewer power 5 jobs open this offseason that most. Which makes it even more important for us to move on, where we'd have less competition for a decent coach, like Kane Wommack. He's been here, he's seen you can have success here, he's seen you can recruit here, and (provided he paid attention at least to a the first couple of games the season after he left) he's seen fans will show up. He's going to get a better job than South Alabama so why not take that shot?

[LamarCheeks 18,070]

Of names of potential candidates should we part ways with CTA, we're missing an obvious one ... 

BRING COACH O TO B-TOWN!!! 
 

 

[Hardwood83 4,747]

44 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Of names of potential candidates should we part ways with CTA, we're missing an obvious one ... 

BRING COACH O TO B-TOWN!!! 
 

 

Oh man, I would have to puncture my ear drums to keep from hearing that unbelievably annoying, gravely voice!! 

[JSHoosier 19,826]

Eh, regardless of how anyone feels about Urban Meyer IU wouldn't make that call and he'd probably set a record time hanging up if they did.

Not to defend Allen, I've called for his termination more than a few times, but any coach is going to have their work cut out for them here.  It takes something special to be the first to 700 losses.

[craigyv88 384]

3 hours ago, Lebowski said:

Folks, Meyer isn't going to coach IUFB. Nor is any big time established winning HC. It's a pipe dream to think this. This job isn't that kind of job. Nor is ARE a Coach Prime type hire. Come back down here on Earth 1 and evaluate the current and overall picture of IUFB.

Serious question, if, and it's a big if, this year's IUFB team goes bowling and wins said bowl; those advocating the termination of CTA still want him gone? Follow up questions, if you still think he should go, what are your expectations for IUFB? If you think he shouldn't go, is it as simple as bowl or bust for you?

That's a fair question, I think it depends on what fashion that bowl appearance would come by.  If it's taking care of Akron then barely beating the four worst teams the rest of the way and going to the Quick Lane Bowl, my mind doesn't change.  However if the defense is more consistent, Tayven continues to improve, and the team wins at least one game they really weren't supposed to I would reconsider.  

Rather than expecting a specific win total, I just want to see the team play consistent, competitive, smart, and be fun to watch.  The program feels pretty flat under Allen and finishing 123rd in 2021 and 100th in 2022 in total offense will do that (115th so far this year).  Allen is a good defensive mind and I appreciate his passion for the program but I feel the sample size amply points to it not working out.  And in context 2019 and 2020 seem to mostly indicate what can happen with top notch coordinators, actually getting a break in the schedule, and some other non-recurring factors.  Micah Parsons opting out of the 2020 PSU game didn't hurt anything either.

Also, not directly related to your post but I disagree with the general notions that IU can't do any better or that we should throw our hands up in the air because no one else has won here either.  For various reasons I think Justin Frye, Manny Diaz, Kane Wommack, Jason Candle, Sean Lewis, Tyson Helton, and Ryan Grubb would all be upgrades imo that would realistically take the IU job.  I would also be in favor of trying Randle El purely for the buzz it could inject into the program.

 

[Lebowski 2,442]

19 hours ago, craigyv88 said:

That's a fair question, I think it depends on what fashion that bowl appearance would come by.  If it's taking care of Akron then barely beating the four worst teams the rest of the way and going to the Quick Lane Bowl, my mind doesn't change.  However if the defense is more consistent, Tayven continues to improve, and the team wins at least one game they really weren't supposed to I would reconsider.  

Rather than expecting a specific win total, I just want to see the team play consistent, competitive, smart, and be fun to watch.  The program feels pretty flat under Allen and finishing 123rd in 2021 and 100th in 2022 in total offense will do that (115th so far this year).  Allen is a good defensive mind and I appreciate his passion for the program but I feel the sample size amply points to it not working out.  And in context 2019 and 2020 seem to mostly indicate what can happen with top notch coordinators, actually getting a break in the schedule, and some other non-recurring factors.  Micah Parsons opting out of the 2020 PSU game didn't hurt anything either.

Also, not directly related to your post but I disagree with the general notions that IU can't do any better or that we should throw our hands up in the air because no one else has won here either.  For various reasons I think Justin Frye, Manny Diaz, Kane Wommack, Jason Candle, Sean Lewis, Tyson Helton, and Ryan Grubb would all be upgrades imo that would realistically take the IU job.  I would also be in favor of trying Randle El purely for the buzz it could inject into the program.

 

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. 

So a bowl qualification for only the fourteenth time (four of those being coached by CTA - 30.7% of IUFBs total bowl count) and winning only its fourth in IUFBs 136 year history would still want you to remove a coach that actually accomplished this for the program. Read that sentence again. 

I'm not clear on your expectations for IUFB but I'm under the assumption based on your response that your expectations is maybe something like an Iowa; where bowl appearances, winning more than 7 games is a consistency, every now and then top 20 rankings and in a conference championship race? If that's the case, that has never happened under any coach throughout IUFB's entire 136 years of existence. Read that last sentence again. The winningest coach in program history, Bob McMillin, had 7 winning seasons out of 14 and was not consistent. Those 7 win seasons were ebb and flow and spread out throughout his career. If it's just you want a team that 'plays consistent, competitive, smart, and fun to watch' than I've got nothing for ya because all of that is completely subjective. For example, I think this season alone IUFB has played consistent, competitive, smart, and I have enjoyed watching them. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to terminate CTA. But that's just me. I mean the most consistent thing IUFB has been the last 6 years is having a head coach with bowl appearances multiple times. 

I get it though. All of us probably get it. All of us want a coach that will come in and create something magical that we've never had in 136 years. But a coach that does that will not coach here for 4 years yet alone 14 years. A coach that accomplishes bowl consistency here at IUFB is getting hired somewhere else because that coach will not stay at a historically bad school like IUFB. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless. Unless, of course there's a coach that considers IUFB a dream job.

EDIT: IUFB has 13 total bowl appearances. Making corrections to stats regarding bowl games. 

[TTT 897]

33 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. 

So a bowl qualification for only the eleventh time (four of those being coached by CTA - 36% of IUFBs total bowl count) and winning only its fourth in IUFBs 136 year history would still want you to remove a coach that actually accomplished this for the program. Read that sentence again. 

I'm not clear on your expectations for IUFB but I'm under the assumption based on your response that your expectations is maybe something like an Iowa; where bowl appearances, winning more than 7 games is a consistency, every now and then top 20 rankings and in a conference championship race? If that's the case, that has never happened under any coach throughout IUFB's entire 136 years of existence. Read that last sentence again. The winningest coach in program history, Bob McMillin, had 7 winning seasons out of 14 and was not consistent. Those 7 win seasons were ebb and flow and spread out throughout his career. If it's just you want a team that 'plays consistent, competitive, smart, and fun to watch' than I've got nothing for ya because all of that is completely subjective. For example, I think this season alone IUFB has played consistent, competitive, smart, and I have enjoyed watching them. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to terminate CTA. But that's just me. I mean the most consistent thing IUFB has been the last 6 years is having a head coach with bowl appearances multiple times. 

I get it though. All of us probably get it. All of us want a coach that will come in and create something magical that we've never had in 136 years. But a coach that does that will not coach here for 4 years yet alone 14 years. A coach that accomplishes bowl consistency here at IUFB is getting hired somewhere else because that coach will not stay at a historically bad school like IUFB. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless. Unless, of course there's a coach that considers IUFB a dream job.

Dream job… and that would be none other than T.A. because he considered it a dream to land in any power 5 job….if he could just turn the corner with his on the job training.

[JSHoosier 19,826]

1 hour ago, Lebowski said:

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. 

So a bowl qualification for only the eleventh time (four of those being coached by CTA - 36% of IUFBs total bowl count) and winning only its fourth in IUFBs 136 year history would still want you to remove a coach that actually accomplished this for the program. Read that sentence again. 

I'm not clear on your expectations for IUFB but I'm under the assumption based on your response that your expectations is maybe something like an Iowa; where bowl appearances, winning more than 7 games is a consistency, every now and then top 20 rankings and in a conference championship race? If that's the case, that has never happened under any coach throughout IUFB's entire 136 years of existence. Read that last sentence again. The winningest coach in program history, Bob McMillin, had 7 winning seasons out of 14 and was not consistent. Those 7 win seasons were ebb and flow and spread out throughout his career. If it's just you want a team that 'plays consistent, competitive, smart, and fun to watch' than I've got nothing for ya because all of that is completely subjective. For example, I think this season alone IUFB has played consistent, competitive, smart, and I have enjoyed watching them. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to terminate CTA. But that's just me. I mean the most consistent thing IUFB has been the last 6 years is having a head coach with bowl appearances multiple times. 

I get it though. All of us probably get it. All of us want a coach that will come in and create something magical that we've never had in 136 years. But a coach that does that will not coach here for 4 years yet alone 14 years. A coach that accomplishes bowl consistency here at IUFB is getting hired somewhere else because that coach will not stay at a historically bad school like IUFB. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless. Unless, of course there's a coach that considers IUFB a dream job.

I'd prefer we cross that bridge if/when we came to it.  At least than we'd have something to try and sell and build off of.

[Lebowski 2,442]

17 hours ago, JSHoosier said:

I'd prefer we cross that bridge if/when we came to it.  At least than we'd have something to try and sell and build off of.

So your expectations for IUFB is bowl eligibility every year? 

And if this year's IUFB team goes bowling and wins said bowl; those advocating the termination of CTA still want him gone? Follow up questions, if you still think he should go, what are your expectations for IUFB? If you think he shouldn't go, is it as simple as bowl or bust for you?

Keep in mind this program has only been bowling 13 times in 136 years. 

[Hovadipo 55,114]

4 hours ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Which makes it even more important for us to move on, where we'd have less competition for a decent coach, like Kane Wommack. He's been here, he's seen you can have success here, he's seen you can recruit here, and (provided he paid attention at least to a the first couple of games the season after he left) he's seen fans will show up. He's going to get a better job than South Alabama so why not take that shot?

I would LOVE this, but can’t see it happening if Tom is fired. He and the Wommacks, especially Kane’s dad, are really tight. 

[craigyv88 384]

37 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. 

So a bowl qualification for only the eleventh time (four of those being coached by CTA - 36% of IUFBs total bowl count) and winning only its fourth in IUFBs 136 year history would still want you to remove a coach that actually accomplished this for the program. Read that sentence again. 

I'm not clear on your expectations for IUFB but I'm under the assumption based on your response that your expectations is maybe something like an Iowa; where bowl appearances, winning more than 7 games is a consistency, every now and then top 20 rankings and in a conference championship race? If that's the case, that has never happened under any coach throughout IUFB's entire 136 years of existence. Read that last sentence again. The winningest coach in program history, Bob McMillin, had 7 winning seasons out of 14 and was not consistent. Those 7 win seasons were ebb and flow and spread out throughout his career. If it's just you want a team that 'plays consistent, competitive, smart, and fun to watch' than I've got nothing for ya because all of that is completely subjective. For example, I think this season alone IUFB has played consistent, competitive, smart, and I have enjoyed watching them. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to terminate CTA. But that's just me. I mean the most consistent thing IUFB has been the last 6 years is having a head coach with bowl appearances multiple times. 

I get it though. All of us probably get it. All of us want a coach that will come in and create something magical that we've never had in 136 years. But a coach that does that will not coach here for 4 years yet alone 14 years. A coach that accomplishes bowl consistency here at IUFB is getting hired somewhere else because that coach will not stay at a historically bad school like IUFB. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless. Unless, of course there's a coach that considers IUFB a dream job.

I understand where you're coming from on all that. I'm thinking perhaps more stylistically rather than in terms of bowl qualification by any way possible, but playing any 13th game has basically been the specific goal at IU as long as I can recall.  I absolutely understand.  

I may have been all over the place previously and I don't think Iowa is really a comp for what I'm getting at, and after thinking more I'll give a much better example of my expectation and why I believe it's quite obtainable.  That's because we had it, and not long ago at all.  Give me 2014-16 IU football back.  The 2015 team was 6-6, went to about as cool of a bowl game as a 6-win team can (imo), had a top-25 offense, and was a 4th down stop against top-15 Michigan and any one of about ten things not happening vs Rutgers away from being 8-4.  In addition, they took #1 Ohio State to the final play of the game with both Nate Sudfeld and Jordan Howard injured in the 2nd half, and beat a really solid Jeff Brohm-coached Western KY team that won 12 games that year.  I will take that every single year at IU, plus or minus a win here and there.  Further, the IU team before that won a road game against a team that went to the SEC title game, and the IU team after went back to another bowl game.

I'm keeping it strictly on-field here as I don't know confirmed details about off the field stuff with KW and I'm not opining for him to return.  But strictly from an on-field perspective I think those years made for a better program, or certainly one I enjoyed and could get behind more.  Agree with you in that it's definitely subjective to an extent.  

Also, I would point to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Kansas.  All schools without traditional football success, or very little anyway, who have it going pretty well currently.  They seemed to make coaching moves as needed until they got it right, and if he leaves, he leaves.  Even Vanderbilt had James Franklin for a while.  It's on the admin to make another good hire if a guy makes an upward move and continue building.  Cutcliffe eventually was out at Duke and they turned around and immediately made another good hire in Mike Elko.  I refuse to believe that status is off limits to IU.  

[Lebowski 2,442]

On 9/18/2023 at 4:36 PM, craigyv88 said:

I understand where you're coming from on all that. I'm thinking perhaps more stylistically rather than in terms of bowl qualification by any way possible, but playing any 13th game has basically been the specific goal at IU as long as I can recall.  I absolutely understand.  

I may have been all over the place previously and I don't think Iowa is really a comp for what I'm getting at, and after thinking more I'll give a much better example of my expectation and why I believe it's quite obtainable.  That's because we had it, and not long ago at all.  Give me 2014-16 IU football back.  The 2015 team was 6-6, went to about as cool of a bowl game as a 6-win team can (imo), had a top-25 offense, and was a 4th down stop against top-15 Michigan and any one of about ten things not happening vs Rutgers away from being 8-4.  In addition, they took #1 Ohio State to the final play of the game with both Nate Sudfeld and Jordan Howard injured in the 2nd half, and beat a really solid Jeff Brohm-coached Western KY team that won 12 games that year.  I will take that every single year at IU, plus or minus a win here and there.  Further, the IU team before that won a road game against a team that went to the SEC title game, and the IU team after went back to another bowl game.

I'm keeping it strictly on-field here as I don't know confirmed details about off the field stuff with KW and I'm not opining for him to return.  But strictly from an on-field perspective I think those years made for a better program, or certainly one I enjoyed and could get behind more.  Agree with you in that it's definitely subjective to an extent.  

Also, I would point to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Kansas.  All schools without traditional football success, or very little anyway, who have it going pretty well currently.  They seemed to make coaching moves as needed until they got it right, and if he leaves, he leaves.  Even Vanderbilt had James Franklin for a while.  It's on the admin to make another good hire if a guy makes an upward move and continue building.  Cutcliffe eventually was out at Duke and they turned around and immediately made another good hire in Mike Elko.  I refuse to believe that status is off limits to IU.  

That makes me understand you're point of view a lot more. Appreciate your response. Sounds like your wanting an offensive minded HC running the program. I'm just the opposite, I prefer a defensive mind, but that's just me. I enjoyed watching the later part of the KW era as well. It seemed like he was moving the program in the right direction.  And those last two years you are talking about, his DC was Tom Allen. All those close games you're talking about was because of a defense that was able to make a stop here or there to keep them in the game. We were going to get our points, that was for sure. But I digress. 

Also, it sounds like you're open to instability of the job in general, just so long as the IU AD makes the next hire worth a darn.  

But regardless, playing in a worthwhile bowl is the overall expectation? Or have you changed on just playing in a bowl game? Or you don't really care about bowls, you just want to see a lights out offense on the field?

Keep in mind, in the 136 year history, IUFB has reached a bowl only 13 times. 

[NashvilleHoosier 3,678]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I would LOVE this, but can’t see it happening if Tom is fired. He and the Wommacks, especially Kane’s dad, are really tight. 

Honestly I don’t see it happening regardless. I think Wommack will be a very hot commodity and even if there isn’t as much competition, I think he’ll have his choice of several programs far better than ours. 

[craigyv88 384]

2 hours ago, Lebowski said:

That makes me understand you're point of view a lot more. Appreciate your response. Sounds like your wanting an offensive minded HC running the program. I'm just the opposite, I prefer a defensive mind, but that's just me. I enjoyed watching the later part of the KW era as well. It seemed like he was moving the program in the right direction.  And those last two years you are talking about, his DC was Tom Allen. All those close games you're talking about was because of a defense that was able to make a stop here or there to keep them in the game. We were going to get our points, that was for sure. But I digress. 

Also, it sounds like you're open to instability of the job in general, just so long as the IU AD makes the next hire worth a darn.  

But regardless, playing in a worthwhile bowl is the overall expectation? Or have you changed on just playing in a bowl game? Or you don't really care about bowls, you just want to see a lights out offense on the field?

Keep in mind, in the 136 year history, IUFB has reached a bowl only 10 times. 

Correct, I would definitely prefer an offensive oriented team if we can only have one or the other, as I feel that better correlates to the modern college game and it's just more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.  Also I believe it's more conducive to pulling off upsets when going against the big boys.  I'm being a bit sentimental here because I simply liked the KW era better and also went to more games during that time, but the difference is almost every week I felt it was at least possible for IU to win, probably because those teams could score with anybody, and I simply don't get that feeling anymore.  KW didn't actually beat OSU, PSU, or Michigan any more than TA but I also got the sense we could at least get Harbaugh's khakis in a bunch.  It felt possible to me.

I don't think I can give you a concrete answer in terms of bowls because my expectations aren't directly linked to one.  What I want most is competitiveness every week, creativity and a dynamic offensive attack, winning/maintaining the bucket, and at least being able to scare the powerhouses and occasionally knocking one off.  From a record / bowl eligibility standpoint I guess that would land us wherever it lands us.  The disconnect between that and where the TA era has trended is that since 2020 the collective score of games against OSU, PSU, and Michigan is 259-55 and I don't feel the program is consistently achieving those other initiatives either.  Also hurts that IU is 1-7 against Maryland, Rutgers, MSU, and Purdue in that time (I like to think of those as 50/50 games).  I'd like to be wrong and we'll see how the rest of the year plays out, but I don't see things changing as-is and I simply like the potential from any of the names I mentioned previously versus the actuality of where things stand under TA.

[Scotty R 2,127]

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

[Hovadipo 55,114]

10 minutes ago, Scotty R said:

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

good point scott hadn’t thought of that

[Rico 2,990]

10 hours ago, Scotty R said:

For those mentioning Womack I don't see him coming here if we fired Allan. Their families are to close and don't see him going somewhere that just fired a close friend.

Then CTA needs to hand in his resignation and not be fired.

[cbp4iu 1,388]

I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to land a Jimbo Fisher or Matt Campbell. I think both could do decent in the Big Ten. Obviously, the chances of either coming are slim to none. I know Matt Campbell is struggling now at ISU but I think he could get better athletes in the state of Indiana. 

[Lebowski 2,442]

12 hours ago, craigyv88 said:

Correct, I would definitely prefer an offensive oriented team if we can only have one or the other, as I feel that better correlates to the modern college game and it's just more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.  Also I believe it's more conducive to pulling off upsets when going against the big boys.  I'm being a bit sentimental here because I simply liked the KW era better and also went to more games during that time, but the difference is almost every week I felt it was at least possible for IU to win, probably because those teams could score with anybody, and I simply don't get that feeling anymore.  KW didn't actually beat OSU, PSU, or Michigan any more than TA but I also got the sense we could at least get Harbaugh's khakis in a bunch.  It felt possible to me.

I don't think I can give you a concrete answer in terms of bowls because my expectations aren't directly linked to one.  What I want most is competitiveness every week, creativity and a dynamic offensive attack, winning/maintaining the bucket, and at least being able to scare the powerhouses and occasionally knocking one off.  From a record / bowl eligibility standpoint I guess that would land us wherever it lands us.  The disconnect between that and where the TA era has trended is that since 2020 the collective score of games against OSU, PSU, and Michigan is 259-55 and I don't feel the program is consistently achieving those other initiatives either.  Also hurts that IU is 1-7 against Maryland, Rutgers, MSU, and Purdue in that time (I like to think of those as 50/50 games).  I'd like to be wrong and we'll see how the rest of the year plays out, but I don't see things changing as-is and I simply like the potential from any of the names I mentioned previously versus the actuality of where things stand under TA.

Keep in mind, Tom Allen came in and vastly improved the defense to help give you some of those feelings you're talking about. I never felt like IUFB was ever in a game until Allen became the DC. 

Did you enjoy the games when Kalen DeBoer was the OC and Penix was healthy?