IU vs St Mary’s - Thursday: NCAA Round of 64- 7:20 pm ET on TBS

[IU Scott 2,375]

9 hours ago, HoosierX said:

I’m already so sick of this excuse. College kids can play 3 or 4 days in a row with no sign of fatigue during the conference tournaments, nba players can play on back to back nights and yet can somehow handle it.

Yet it’s somehow impossible for 18-22 year old kids to be be able to play a game after only being somewhere for 36 hours. I’m not sayin it was ideal or that it didn’t have some effect on the game. But any effect would be minor. We just played really poorly, and it’s really just that simple.

You also see NBA teams losing a lot on the second night if back to back games.  You also seeing star players taking games off because of the schedule

[hoosierbannerd 1,518]

3 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Yes, I get that; however, CMW, IMO, still has a lot to learn about the college game. I actually think that one of the things he realized is that he needs to be more hands on than he did in the Pros.  Also, I started noticing signs later in the year that he was engaging with his assistants and Thad Matta.  Something he wasn’t doing earlier in the year.

IMO the first thing he needs to change from NBA mentality is the wholesale substitution pattern..it kills momentum every damn time.

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

10 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Yes, I get that; however, CMW, IMO, still has a lot to learn about the college game. I actually think that one of the things he realized is that he needs to be more hands on than he did in the Pros.  Also, I started noticing signs later in the year that he was engaging with his assistants and Thad Matta.  Something he wasn’t doing earlier in the year.

Let's hope that the level of accountability with coaches, staff, and players increases this off-season. Benching for bad on court decisions in the cupcake season could go a long way for players to understand what is and isn't acceptable come conference time. There is a lot to learn for some who have forgotten more about basketball than us underlings who just don't know the game.

[pumpfake 3,914]

2 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

I think there is a foundational layer that's missing on top of needing scoring and defense from the wing. I believe the issues on the wing is well known and has been for awhile. My concern is the lack of overall improvement and that's more a program (see: culture) issue than just recruiting. There is a ton that goes into that lack of proper culture and I'm not sure just getting a wing or three that can score and defend will fix it.

In short, we need to become a program that the sum is better than the individual parts. We haven't been that way for a long time and won't be consistently good to great until that happens.

Regarding improvement, particularly off-season, I'm a bit jaded.  Too many players have failed to improve their skill level and made the same mistakes season after season. 

I believe there is good opportunity for several guys to get better and contribute more next year, but I can't fully believe it until I see it.  Playing better D, making smart plays, etc. seem quite "do-able" - becoming good 3 point shooters is something I'm not sold on.

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

3 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

Regarding improvement, particularly off-season, I'm a bit jaded.  Too many players have failed to improve their skill level and made the same mistakes season after season. 

I believe there is good opportunity for several guys to get better and contribute more next year, but I can't fully believe it until I see it.  Playing better D, making smart plays, etc. seem quite "do-able" - becoming good 3 point shooters is something I'm not sold on.

We've heard plenty how our players were going to improve and we advanced far in the off-season media tourney for years now.

We have players with potential. Gallo with a jumper would be a pain for opponents. Geronimo has the tools but needs consistency, if he develops the ability to dribble drive he's going to be a beast. Bates has a lot there just needs reps.

Wiscy had a sophomore explode to Big 1.o POY and a frosh start at point that hit several huge shots. It's not a secret that they develop players and get the most out of them even with some thinking they'll finish at the bottom of the conference and they're coach will be fired.

We need players that aren't happy with our meritocracy and work to get better not twit about it. We need players that aren't just happy and looking for acceptance from their teammates because they're cool. We need players who compete at everything they do. The type of players that will drag their teammates into the gym and compete at anything and everything on a daily basis. We have a team of mostly likeable players that seem pretty satisfied with being mediocre but getting along with their teammates.

It's amazing to watch pieces become cohesive to be something greater than the individual parts. I don't think we saw that much this season. It needs to happen this off-season so next season isn't a big turd

[pumpfake 3,914]

10 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

We've heard plenty how our players were going to improve and we advanced far in the off-season media tourney for years now.

We have players with potential. Gallo with a jumper would be a pain for opponents. Geronimo has the tools but needs consistency, if he develops the ability to dribble drive he's going to be a beast. Bates has a lot there just needs reps.

Wiscy had a sophomore explode to Big 1.o POY and a frosh start at point that hit several huge shots. It's not a secret that they develop players and get the most out of them even with some thinking they'll finish at the bottom of the conference and they're coach will be fired.

We need players that aren't happy with our meritocracy and work to get better not twit about it. We need players that aren't just happy and looking for acceptance from their teammates because they're cool. We need players who compete at everything they do. The type of players that will drag their teammates into the gym and compete at anything and everything on a daily basis. We have a team of mostly likeable players that seem pretty satisfied with being mediocre but getting along with their teammates.

It's amazing to watch pieces become cohesive to be something greater than the individual parts. I don't think we saw that much this season. It needs to happen this off-season so next season isn't a big turd

Yes.  And Woodson needs to demand these things.  He can't force them to do so, but he can relieve them of their roster spot if they aren't doing what they must.  

[IUFAN1976 2,239]

43 minutes ago, hoosierbannerd said:

IMO the first thing he needs to change from NBA mentality is the wholesale substitution pattern..it kills momentum every damn time.

That I agree with.  He can still use 9 or 10 players but filter them in occasionally with always keeping 2 or 3 starters on the floor at all times.  Since he only had 3 players that can score reliably, 2 of them should have been on the floor at all times, IMO

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

31 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

Yes.  And Woodson needs to demand these things.  He can't force them to do so, but he can relieve them of their roster spot if they aren't doing what they must.  

Which is baffling because you know Woody played on some of those teams. I'd really like to see Woody get a solid group of upperclassmen (X, Gallo, and Geronimo would be my preference) to take over the leadership role for this team. It's one thing to hear it from your coach and something completely different to hear and have it enforced by your teammates.

[hoosierbannerd 1,518]

4 hours ago, IUFAN1976 said:

That I agree with.  He can still use 9 or 10 players but filter them in occasionally with always keeping 2 or 3 starters on the floor at all times.  Since he only had 3 players that can score reliably, 2 of them should have been on the floor at all times, IMO

thank you for finishing my thought ☺️

[str8baller 4,750]

8 hours ago, pumpfake said:

Yes.  And Woodson needs to demand these things.  He can't force them to do so, but he can relieve them of their roster spot if they aren't doing what they must.  

Sure. Sounds good on a message board. Now play it out for us: who exactly would you replace, and for what mistakes, and which bench players would do better?  
 

 

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

I’ve been mostly silent, second post since the loss.

there was a lot missing from our play in Thursday’s game. I’m not ignoring the 5 games in 8 days nor the tough travel schedule. That may have had some impact, but it doesn’t explain what happened. 

I would love to hear from Bgleas and others that also played college sports as I did because I just don’t see it. As a college athlete, I would have played two games a day if I could. To have that much time between games and having the opportunity to fight for each other and prove the doubters wrong and “ make them pay for that” I cannot grasp what happened.

It was sadly a once in a lifetime experience and that is going to be their memory and that is unfortunate as for some, that was their last college game.

Bad games happen, losses happen but this was odd. Whether we lost by 1 or 30, it still means the end of the season but I didn’t see the fight and passion that leaves me feeling good about things as we head into the off-season. Again, I think fans want to protect the team and university they love and try to rationalize reasons for what unfolded but I just cannot believe that was it. 


 

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

13 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

I’ve been mostly silent, second post since the loss.

there was a lot missing from our play in Thursday’s game. I’m not ignoring the 5 games in 8 days nor the tough travel schedule. That may have had some impact, but it doesn’t explain what happened. 

I would love to hear from Bgleas and others that also played college sports as I did because I just don’t see it. As a college athlete, I would have played two games a day if I could. To have that much time between games and having the opportunity to fight for each other and prove the doubters wrong and “ make them pay for that” I cannot grasp what happened.

It was sadly a once in a lifetime experience and that is going to be their memory and that is unfortunate as for some, that was their last college game.

Bad games happen, losses happen but this was odd. Whether we lost by 1 or 30, it still means the end of the season but I didn’t see the fight and passion that leaves me feeling good about things as we head into the off-season. Again, I think fans want to protect the team and university they love and try to rationalize reasons for what unfolded but I just cannot believe that was it. 


 

It's mental. They got over the hump of "learning how to win" close games but it goes further than that. It would be interesting to know the true level of trust between players, not the superficial talk. I'm not sure how much accountability there is between players too. We need this culture in the program more than we need shooters or play makers.

[IUFAN1976 2,239]

18 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

It's mental. They got over the hump of "learning how to win" close games but it goes further than that. It would be interesting to know the true level of trust between players, not the superficial talk. I'm not sure how much accountability there is between players too. We need this culture in the program more than we need shooters or play makers.

I agree.  After having sometime to reflect after the loss, there was something deeper going on.  It maybe that reached their goal and they were done playing, tired of fighting.

I’m just going to say, Norte Dame survived and advanced after playing a late game in Dayton and traveled to the West Coast. I know IU had travel issues but I think this team as done playing, IMO. I do think Saint Mary’s was the better team but we didn’t even compete in that game After they took the lead. I think there was something more than just fatigue, in my opinion!

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

11 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

I agree.  After having sometime to reflect after the loss, there was something deeper going on.  It maybe that reached their goal and they were done playing, tired of fighting.

I’m just going to say, Norte Dame survived and advanced after playing a late game in Dayton and traveled to the West Coast. I know IU had travel issues but I think this team as done playing, IMO. I do think Saint Mary’s was the better team but we didn’t even compete in that game After they took the lead. I think there was something more than just fatigue, in my opinion!

I hadn't thought about them reaching a goal and then being done playing and fighting.

Agree about Saint Mary's being the better team but even facing a better team you can compete. There were just too many lapses that resembled what we saw throughout the season to think it was a one off fatigue issue.

Simple ball screen defense that leaves the ball handler WIDE OPEN for an easy three. Over helping and not getting anywhere near the shooter to contest the shot. Tossing the ball into the post and standing. Sprinting on a fast break and immediately giving up when the opponent runs it back. Rebounds falling a few feet away from our players and having the opponent get the board. Too many losing plays with bad e and e to even be able to say we competed.

[NashvilleHoosier 3,634]

5 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

I agree.  After having sometime to reflect after the loss, there was something deeper going on.  It maybe that reached their goal and they were done playing, tired of fighting.

I’m just going to say, Norte Dame survived and advanced after playing a late game in Dayton and traveled to the West Coast. I know IU had travel issues but I think this team as done playing, IMO. I do think Saint Mary’s was the better team but we didn’t even compete in that game After they took the lead. I think there was something more than just fatigue, in my opinion!

Maybe but why is anybody even falling for this idea that Notre Dame and Indiana’s situation was remotely similar? ND played 1 game in their conference tourney on Thursday then had 5 days off until their game in Dayton. Sure they had to also turn around and travel across the country, but that not remotely comparable to the fatigue that could come from having to play 3 high intensity games in a row in our conference tourney, having 2 days off before Dayton and then the travel across country.

Fatigue isn’t what lost the game. I’m sure it factored in to our performance some. Had we hung for 30 minutes then faded at the end I might buy that fatigue was a bigger factor. But they just flat out worked us over and were the far better team. But looking at ND’s game yesterday and concluding they didn’t seem fatigued so fatigue shouldn’t have been an issue for us is problematic at best. It’s perfect for Dakich and people who love Dakich. But the situations just aren’t close.

 

[str8baller 4,750]

14 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

but this was odd. Whether we lost by 1 or 30, it still means the end of the season but I didn’t see the fight and passion that leaves me feeling good about things as we head into the off-season.

How do you explain the first ten-fifteen minutes where we were winning?  
 

Seems odd that some mysterious mental issues crept up while they were on the floor and we were all watching. But we’re all just speculating, so I won’t discount the possibility. 

[RaceToTheTop 23,579]

21 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

I agree.  After having sometime to reflect after the loss, there was something deeper going on.  It maybe that reached their goal and they were done playing, tired of fighting.

I’m just going to say, Norte Dame survived and advanced after playing a late game in Dayton and traveled to the West Coast. I know IU had travel issues but I think this team as done playing, IMO. I do think Saint Mary’s was the better team but we didn’t even compete in that game After they took the lead. I think there was something more than just fatigue, in my opinion!

Interesting article on 247 on Alabama, BTW (has nothing to do with the IU game, but since the ND/Bama game was mentioned thought it was relevant to that game):  teams were allotted a 20 minute shootaround time the night before and the morning of their game at the arena they were playing in.  A lot of coaches simply chose to forego the time.  Oats decided to keep both times but make it optional.

For the night before, only one player showed up.  For the morning shootaround, only three showed up.

Oats indicated after the game that he did not feel the buy in from the group he had this year was not what it was last year.

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

16 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Maybe but why is anybody even falling for this idea that Notre Dame and Indiana’s situation was remotely similar? ND played 1 game in their conference tourney on Thursday then had 5 days off until their game in Dayton. Sure they had to also turn around and travel across the country, but that not remotely comparable to the fatigue that could come from having to play 3 high intensity games in a row in our conference tourney, having 2 days off before Dayton and then the travel across country.

Fatigue isn’t what lost the game. I’m sure it factored in to our performance some. Had we hung for 30 minutes then faded at the end I might buy that fatigue was a bigger factor. But they just flat out worked us over and were the far better team. But looking at ND’s game yesterday and concluding they didn’t seem fatigued so fatigue shouldn’t have been an issue for us is problematic at best. It’s perfect for Dakich and people who love Dakich. But the situations just aren’t close.

 

A few more data points...

vs. Iowa in Big 1.o tourney quarters finals ended around 3pm Saturday

vs. Wyoming in Round of 68 play in game started around 9:30pm (?) Tuesday

Saturday 3pm -> Sunday 3pm = 24 hours

Sunday 3pm -> Monday 3pm = 24 hours

Monday 3pm -> Tuesday 3pm = 24 hours

It was more than 2 days off before Dayton.

On Notre Dame...

They had to play a whole 5 extra minutes of high intensity basketball in their Round of 68 play in game against Rutgers. They then traveled to the west (best) coast to play their first round game. Their first round game actually started earlier than ours by a few hours right?

[NashvilleHoosier 3,634]

17 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

A few more data points...

vs. Iowa in Big 1.o tourney quarters finals ended around 3pm Saturday

vs. Wyoming in Round of 68 play in game started around 9:30pm (?) Tuesday

Saturday 3pm -> Sunday 3pm = 24 hours

Sunday 3pm -> Monday 3pm = 24 hours

Monday 3pm -> Tuesday 3pm = 24 hours

It was more than 2 days off before Dayton.

On Notre Dame...

They had to play a whole 5 extra minutes of high intensity basketball in their Round of 68 play in game against Rutgers. They then traveled to the west (best) coast to play their first round game. Their first round game actually started earlier than ours by a few hours right?

The fact that you went through this just shows how much this argument is actually grasping for straws trying to make these situations comparable. Ok, there were 2 days in between games for us, 5 days in between games for ND. If you break it down to hours, 3 days for us, 6 days for them. It's the same thing. But the point is the fatigue wouldn't be just from just the Dayton traveling situation, but from playing 5 games in 8 days, plus the Dayton travel situation. ND didn't have to do anything close to that. They only had to deal with Dayton travel stuff. 

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

3 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

The fact that you went through this just shows how much this argument is actually grasping for straws trying to make these situations comparable. Ok, there were 2 days in between games for us, 5 days in between games for ND. If you break it down to hours, 3 days for us, 6 days for them. It's the same thing. But the point is the fatigue wouldn't be just from just the Dayton traveling situation, but from playing 5 games in 8 days, plus the Dayton travel situation. ND didn't have to do anything close to that. They only had to deal with Dayton travel stuff. 

Adding facts to the situation is grasping at straws? That's odd.

There's also the fact Notre Dame had to travel back from NY after their conference tourney, travel further after their play in game, etc.

I'd say having a full 24+ hours between what was stated and what actually took place is a pretty big deal unless I'm confusing that not having downtime was an issue. 3 games, one going to OT, in 9 days is nothing close to 5 in 8? Where is that magic cutoff??