Our Upperclassmen’s Regression and a Case for Playing our 2020 Kids More

[Str8Hoosiers]

1 minute ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

The offense really doesn't create that many open shots. Penn State just didn't play defense. 

I would strongly disagree with that assessment... I watch a lot of basketball, and I have been watching IU for as long as I can remember and the opportunities the Archie Offense gives us are REALLY REALLY good ones.... we just don't hit the shots, part of that is sometimes it is the wrong guy getting those opportunities (i.e. Race being wide open on the wing). We obviously still take bad shots as well (Al or Rob driving into the trees with no chance) but for the most part I would say we get the looks any team would want.... we just have to hit them more consistently.

But more on point, I wasn't saying those things, I was saying if those were his answer to the questions being asked by the AD then how do you proceed? Where is the Solution?

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

19 minutes ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

I would strongly disagree with that assessment... I watch a lot of basketball, and I have been watching IU for as long as I can remember and the opportunities the Archie Offense gives us are REALLY REALLY good ones.... we just don't hit the shots, part of that is sometimes it is the wrong guy getting those opportunities (i.e. Race being wide open on the wing). We obviously still take bad shots as well (Al or Rob driving into the trees with no chance) but for the most part I would say we get the looks any team would want.... we just have to hit them more consistently.

But more on point, I wasn't saying those things, I was saying if those were his answer to the questions being asked by the AD then how do you proceed? Where is the Solution?

If those were the answers, I'd fire Archie. He really wouldnt have questions asked. I'd just show a compilation of all the fake pick and rolls and wide open 3s... That would take at least a couple hours. 

[Stuhoo]

11 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

If those were the answers, I'd fire Archie. He really wouldnt have questions asked. I'd just show a compilation of all the fake pick and rolls and wide open 3s... That would take at least a couple hours. 

Now we know why armchair coaches are just that.

Str8 asked a serious question—do you have a serious answer, or was that it?

[HoosierAloha]

48 minutes ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

I would strongly disagree with that assessment... I watch a lot of basketball, and I have been watching IU for as long as I can remember and the opportunities the Archie Offense gives us are REALLY REALLY good ones.... we just don't hit the shots, part of that is sometimes it is the wrong guy getting those opportunities (i.e. Race being wide open on the wing). We obviously still take bad shots as well (Al or Rob driving into the trees with no chance) but for the most part I would say we get the looks any team would want.... we just have to hit them more consistently.

But more on point, I wasn't saying those things, I was saying if those were his answer to the questions being asked by the AD then how do you proceed? Where is the Solution?

Those missed wide open shots are more than not putting up 2 or 3 points on the board too.  If those shots are made it draws the defense out affording TJD and Race more opportunities in the lane.  It allows the guards and wings more driving lanes into the paint to get easy buckets and fouls.  Those missed wide open shots just kill the offense to the point of what we consistently see; teams sagging into the lane daring us to beat them from outside.

[Str8Hoosiers]

52 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

If those were the answers, I'd fire Archie. He really wouldnt have questions asked. I'd just show a compilation of all the fake pick and rolls and wide open 3s... That would take at least a couple hours. 

You just constantly repeat the same things you see on twitter or on here.... Fake Pick & Rolls is the issue du jour!

If you want to have a legitimate conversation I am all in... but if you just want to keep regurgitating the same hot takes and 1 liners, well.... well nothing... you do you!

[MikeRoberts]

As someone mentioned, we get some open looks but there is an important caveat:

the wrong people are usually the ones wide open. Last year it was Smith and this year it is Race. When they get the ball on the perimeter they are no threat what so ever and it allows the 5 defenders to guard the other 4 offensive players, it’s useless.

It also goes back to what people have complained about since Archie got here in having multiple players on the court at the same time that can’t and won’t shoot. Playing Race and TJD together is horrible but our only option. Those two can’t and won’t shoot so there is no reason to follow them more than 10 feet from the basket. That allows the defense to stay home and never get out of their comfort zone

last year it was Brunk and TJD. Can Duncomb break that trend?

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

6 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

As someone mentioned, we get some open looks but there is an important caveat:

the wrong people are usually the ones wide open. Last year it was Smith and this year it is Race. When they get the ball on the perimeter they are no threat what so ever and it allows the 5 defenders to guard the other 4 offensive players, it’s useless.

It also goes back to what people have complained about since Archie got here in having multiple players on the court at the same time that can’t and won’t shoot. Playing Race and TJD together is horrible but our only option. Those two can’t and won’t shoot so there is no reason to follow them more than 10 feet from the basket. That allows the defense to stay home and never get out of their comfort zone

last year it was Brunk and TJD. Can Duncomb break that trend?

FWIW, I see Duncomb as a rim hugger from the few games I've actually been able to watch and the fact his ytd  FG average is 64%.  As a junior it was 68% and 65% as a soph.  That doesn't suggest to me he shoots many jump shots.

[MikeRoberts]

6 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

FWIW, I see Duncomb as a rim hugger from the few games I've actually been able to watch and the fact his ytd  FG average is 64%.  As a junior it was 68% and 65% as a soph.  That doesn't suggest to me he shoots many jump shots.

Thanks, I like the fact that he CAN play around the rim like TJD but we 100% need to change this recruitment strategy. We can afford to have 1 guy on the court that won’t shoot/can’t shoot but when you have 2 or 3 there is no movement, no deception, no chance for anyone that can actually shoot to succeed.

so, not only do we need a transfer at the 5 that can shoot but also a transfer at the 4 that can shoot to pair up with Race and Duncomb that cant

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

1 hour ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

You just constantly repeat the same things you see on twitter or on here.... Fake Pick & Rolls is the issue du jour!

If you want to have a legitimate conversation I am all in... but if you just want to keep regurgitating the same hot takes and 1 liners, well.... well nothing... you do you!

It's one of the biggest issues the offense has. Another pet peeve is the jump stop. At this level, it shouldn't be such a primary thing our guys do. But there were multiple times last night where Al and Phin would jump stop 10ft from the basket and then decide on passing or shooting. At this level, those decisions should already be made. Jared Jeffries did actually talk about that with Guytons but about TJD doing it.

[rcbowla]

His answer... "The offense is creating open shots, we aren't hitting them but we will continue to work on it in practice. The upperclassmen are the key...." - Then what do we decide to do?
His answer... "We can try to go faster.... we will hire a shooting doctor.... the upperclassmen suck, we will play only Freshmen and Sophomores..." - Then what do we decide to do?

To me that says desperation and uncertainty. It also admits failures to cure 2 of the biggest problems he's had since day 1 and it took me (the AD) to get him to address through fear for his job. I fire him and find the guy who most aligns with my visions for the program. Who's realistic? How much $ do I have to work with? If $ is not a road block I go out and offer Stevens with the understanding it's a long shot and then pivot to a Beard, Few, Pearl, Fife, Collins, Keatts etc.

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[Alford Bailey]

5 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

As someone mentioned, we get some open looks but there is an important caveat:

the wrong people are usually the ones wide open. Last year it was Smith and this year it is Race. When they get the ball on the perimeter they are no threat what so ever and it allows the 5 defenders to guard the other 4 offensive players, it’s useless.

It also goes back to what people have complained about since Archie got here in having multiple players on the court at the same time that can’t and won’t shoot. Playing Race and TJD together is horrible but our only option. Those two can’t and won’t shoot so there is no reason to follow them more than 10 feet from the basket. That allows the defense to stay home and never get out of their comfort zone

last year it was Brunk and TJD. Can Duncomb break that trend?

I agree with this and no I wouldnt expect Duncomb to break the trend.

[RaceToTheTop]

8 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

As someone mentioned, we get some open looks but there is an important caveat:

the wrong people are usually the ones wide open. Last year it was Smith and this year it is Race. When they get the ball on the perimeter they are no threat what so ever and it allows the 5 defenders to guard the other 4 offensive players, it’s useless.

It also goes back to what people have complained about since Archie got here in having multiple players on the court at the same time that can’t and won’t shoot. Playing Race and TJD together is horrible but our only option. Those two can’t and won’t shoot so there is no reason to follow them more than 10 feet from the basket. That allows the defense to stay home and never get out of their comfort zone

last year it was Brunk and TJD. Can Duncomb break that trend?

Honestly, I think Durham and Phinisee have gotten decent looks from three this year.  Durham hasn’t hit most and Phin seems to pass them up.

[8bucks]

The most promising thing I’ve seen as of late is the progression of Franklin and Galloway. That’s a freshman and sophomore that could be a starting tandem for the next few years.
while Galloway is a very good distributor and Franklin can handle the ball, we really need to see Lander come along so we have 3 guards that we can count on. 
 
the optimism ends there as I look at our front court, if TJD leaves I have no idea what the plan is. Race is not ready to play the 5 game in and game out and we cannot plan on a freshmen being ready either. We need an impact transfer in a bad way

I agree but it reminds me of the promise we saw with Rob early on. I just question whether these kids like playing for him. Maybe he connects better with guys like Franklin and Galloway and they become the building blocks we hoped some of the others were supposed to be.


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[Str8Hoosiers]

17 hours ago, rcs29 said:

To me that says desperation and uncertainty. It also admits failures to cure 2 of the biggest problems he's had since day 1 and it took me (the AD) to get him to address through fear for his job. I fire him and find the guy who most aligns with my visions for the program. Who's realistic? How much $ do I have to work with? If $ is not a road block I go out and offer Stevens with the understanding it's a long shot and then pivot to a Beard, Few, Pearl, Fife, Collins, Keatts etc.

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Which answer says desperation and uncertainty? Either?

If that is the case what is the answer that doesn't lead to firing him? Or is that not even an option... in which case you (the AD) wouldn't be asking the questions from before, you would just fire him and look for the next coach... and for you the next coach would be Stevens, Beard, Few, etc.... I get it... that is a solution, that is a thought out process.... Thanks.

But what is Stevens isn't an option, hopefully one of the next 6 guys you listed wants the job... but if not how far down the line do you go... do you have any of this figured out BEFORE firing the known commodity?

 

Brass - Sorry for derailing your thread down this path.... back on topic.... I see the upperclassmen coming around more and more each game... as long as the improvement continues through the rest of the season then I say no case for playing the 2020 kids more than they are currently playing. You play to win now... never know what the future is going to bring.

[Uspshoosier]

https://assemblycall.com/4-lineup-takeaways-2020/

[Stuhoo]

7 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

https://assemblycall.com/4-lineup-takeaways-2020/

That’s a great read—thanks 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I think it's crazy that we are likely to see two recruiting classes never play in an NCAA tourney game. 

2016- De'Ron Davis, Curtis Jones, Devonte Green, Freddie McSwain and Grant Felon

2017- Justin Smith, Race Thompson, Clifton Moore, Al Durham

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Clifton Moore this season at LaSalle

7.4 points

4.4 rebounds

1.6 blocks

60% FG

62.5% 2FG

53.8% 3FG(7-13)

20.4 minutes 

6 starts in 9 games. 

[RaceToTheTop]

On 1/3/2021 at 8:19 PM, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Clifton Moore this season at LaSalle

7.4 points

4.4 rebounds

1.6 blocks

60% FG

62.5% 2FG

53.8% 3FG(7-13)

20.4 minutes 

6 starts in 9 games. 

We don't need 7 point, 4 rebound bigs from losing low major teams.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

7 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

We don't need 7 point, 4 rebound bigs from losing low major teams.

Yea we definitely don't need a backup big man at all.