TOM CREAN FIRED

[mdn82]

Honestly I would take Wright over Donnovan but not quite Stevens.

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I would put Wright 3rd, but we aren't getting any of those three. I guess if we can have anyone I prefer Pop. Beyond him Steve Kerr would be an excellent recruiter. Maybe then Coach K. If that doesn't pan out I think we should make a run at Bill Self.


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[KingPG21]

Wait, people like Greg Marshall? He wouldn't be a top 15 candidate for me. I guess he would be a little better than Crean?

[mdn82]

Wait, people like Greg Marshall? He wouldn't be a top 15 candidate for me. I guess he would be a little better than Crean?

Completely agree


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[Yogi's Picnic Basket]

I would put Wright 3rd, but we aren't getting any of those three. I guess if we can have anyone I prefer Pop. Beyond him Steve Kerr would be an excellent recruiter. Maybe then Coach K. If that doesn't pan out I think we should make a run at Bill Self.


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Okay those 3 aren't close to that far fetched than Pop or Coach K and Kerr. Stevens has Indiana ties and has always been talked about with the job whether it happens or not. Billy had people talking last year if KD left and they traded Russ and IU was actually mentioned with him whether it was serious or not. Jay Wright before last year would've actually been a good option. As good as Nova is the program still isn't talked about with the other big programs and in the Big East. I don't think it happens, but coming here has some pros for him. You think Donovan sticks around if Russ leaves? The Thunder franchise is very demanding. Scott Brooks was considered the Steve Kerr of the league 4 years ago and got fired after the very next season. Stevens is the only one worth breathing the same air as those guys you mentioned so c'mon.

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[Yogi's Picnic Basket]

Okay those 3 aren't close to that far fetched than Pop or Coach K and Kerr. Stevens has Indiana ties and has always been talked about with the job whether it happens or not. Billy had people talking last year if KD left and they traded Russ and IU was actually mentioned with him whether it was serious or not. Jay Wright before last year would've actually been a good option. As good as Nova is the program still isn't talked about with the other big programs and in the Big East. I don't think it happens, but coming here has some pros for him. You think Donovan sticks around if Russ leaves? The Thunder franchise is very demanding. Scott Brooks was considered the Steve Kerr of the league 4 years ago and got fired after the very next season. Stevens is the only one worth breathing the same air as those guys you mentioned so c'mon.

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Besides Self....I am not sure why you would even mention him in that class. Self hasn't done much more than Crean the last few years honestly. He has a ton of more talent at his disposal than Crean too.

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[Class of '66 Old Fart]

By now, most of you are aware that I like numbers.  So, I've gone back to 2012 and used 247Sports rankings of the incoming recruiting classes for some of the names being bandied about in this thread to compare recruiting efforts.  In a couple of cases, a school's class was outside the top 100 and you'll see the 'n.a.'    Be prepared for a surprise.

247Sports Ranking - Top 100	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	As of 1/24/17	Average
Tom Crean - Our Beloved	8	4	22	29	22	35	20
Chris Mack - Xavier	26	61	17	n.a.	28	10	28
Jay Wright - 'Nova	30	32	46	30	44	22	34
Tony Bennett - UVA	15	57	41	57	7	n.a.	35
Butler (Holtman since '15)	57	50	63	n.a.	45	17	46
Archie Miller - Dayton	n.a.	60	n.a.	91	71	n.a.	74

 

I'll be more than happy to add names as long as the request list doesn't get too out of hand.

[Hovadipo]

Wait, people like Greg Marshall? He wouldn't be a top 15 candidate for me. I guess he would be a little better than Crean?

Yep. Pass. Didn't want him a couple years ago either when Crean was already signed up at Bama.


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[WayneFleekHoosier]

Good list Old Fart. School prestige and recruiting budget need to be considered. Plus we are trending downwards.

Also Butler has a higher rated recruiting class than us.

Let that sink in.

Also to see the bump Indiana gets you, we need to see Crean at Marquette vs Crean at IU.


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[Stuhoo]

It's pretty sad how many names have been mentioned in this thread and not 1 person has said "now come on Creans better than him"

Leonard Hamilton.
Crean is WAY better than him.

[Yogi's Picnic Basket]

Leonard Hamilton.
Crean is WAY better than him.

WAY? Hmmm has been just as consistent as IU with better defense and besides this year less talent. Just went 5-1 against 6 top 25 teams in a row. I don't think we have came close to that kinda stretch. The GT game is rough but I think most schools would take 5-2 against 6 ranked teams in that span. Let's not forget they battle Duke and UNC and the rest of the ACC which is so much better than the B1G.

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[mdn82]

Okay those 3 aren't close to that far fetched than Pop or Coach K and Kerr. Stevens has Indiana ties and has always been talked about with the job whether it happens or not. Billy had people talking last year if KD left and they traded Russ and IU was actually mentioned with him whether it was serious or not. Jay Wright before last year would've actually been a good option. As good as Nova is the program still isn't talked about with the other big programs and in the Big East. I don't think it happens, but coming here has some pros for him. You think Donovan sticks around if Russ leaves? The Thunder franchise is very demanding. Scott Brooks was considered the Steve Kerr of the league 4 years ago and got fired after the very next season. Stevens is the only one worth breathing the same air as those guys you mentioned so c'mon.

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Coach K has more pull to IU than any coach that hasn't played at IU. Stevens has said he won't come to IU. Donovan is not leaving the NBA for college. He has Westbrook. He just signed a 3 year deal. Again, Jay Wright said he isn't leaving and turned down opportunities to interview for the NBA last year. I don't know why everyone has a fixation that IU has pull to coaches in the NBA or coaches that recently won a title. They probably feel pretty damn comfortable. Why would a coach leave that for IU? Take your fandom out of the equation and look at this logically. After Knight? The top coaches had interest. After Sampson? Calipari had interest. At the time he was a mid major coach. We can get a damn good coach, but we aren't pulling those 3. Out of those three the best chance is Stevens imo.


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[Stuhoo]

11 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Leonard Hamilton.
Crean is WAY better than him.

 

 

This is the first year of Hamilton's long coaching career where his team's on-court play has met expectations.

 

 

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

59 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Also to see the bump Indiana gets you, we need to see Crean at Marquette vs Crean at IU.


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Went back to 2003 for CTC but unfortunately I couldn't locate data for 2006 and 2008.

2003 - 28th ranked

2004 - 71st ranked

2005 - 13th ranked.  He had 3-4's and 2-3's

2007 - 96th ranked

[Yogi's Picnic Basket]

Coach K has more pull to IU than any coach that hasn't played at IU. Stevens has said he won't come to IU. Donovan is not leaving the NBA for college. He has Westbrook. He just signed a 3 year deal. Again, Jay Wright said he isn't leaving and turned down opportunities to interview for the NBA last year. I don't know why everyone has a fixation that IU has pull to coaches in the NBA or coaches that recently won a title. They probably feel pretty damn comfortable. Why would a coach leave that for IU? Take your fandom out of the equation and look at this logically. After Knight? The top coaches had interest. After Sampson? Calipari had interest. At the time he was a mid major coach. We can get a damn good coach, but we aren't pulling those 3. Out of those three the best chance is Stevens imo.


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Westbrook can leave after next season? Lol a 3 year deal with opt outs after every year is not really a 3 year deal. I'm pretty confident every program and even pro teams still reach out to guys that can't get to gauge interest and to make the real candidates feel pressure to pull the trigger. If I thought those 3 were sold to come here automatically then I wouldn't have mentioned anyone else.

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[Yogi's Picnic Basket]

Westbrook can leave after next season? Lol a 3 year deal with opt outs after every year is not really a 3 year deal. I'm pretty confident every program and even pro teams still reach out to guys that can't get to gauge interest and to make the real candidates feel pressure to pull the trigger. If I thought those 3 were sold to come here automatically then I wouldn't have mentioned anyone else.

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I get what your saying but if we fire Crean and those 3 don't at least get a call then Glass should leave the program. Our fanbase would go ballistic if Stevens didn't receive a call and there is a reason he is our DREAM coach. Keyword dream. It could happen but no likely. People talked about Billy coming here at times last year as well, but I think with Adams and Oladipo they know even without Russ they know how to build a good team, but they often like to change coaches as players leave. I think Wright is the most unrealistic but we wanted him last time so idk why we wouldn't attempt it now with him being an even bigger name. The middle tier guys are who we should focus on and really spend time scouting. Heck if Crean gets the boot we may have a guy come here none of us have a clue about. Kinda how I felt with Sampson and Crean.

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[mdn82]

Westbrook can leave after next season? Lol a 3 year deal with opt outs after every year is not really a 3 year deal. I'm pretty confident every program and even pro teams still reach out to guys that can't get to gauge interest and to make the real candidates feel pressure to pull the trigger. If I thought those 3 were sold to come here automatically then I wouldn't have mentioned anyone else.

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Ok. 2 year deal with a player option for a max one year to coincide with more tv money. If Crean is fired next year and Russ isn't going back then let's see if he would entertain it again.


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[mdn82]

I get what your saying but if we fire Crean and those 3 don't at least get a call then Glass should leave the program. Our fanbase would go ballistic if Stevens didn't receive a call and there is a reason he is our DREAM coach. Keyword dream. It could happen but no likely. People talked about Billy coming here at times last year as well, but I think with Adams and Oladipo they know even without Russ they know how to build a good team, but they often like to change coaches as players leave. I think Wright is the most unrealistic but we wanted him last time so idk why we wouldn't attempt it now with him being an even bigger name. The middle tier guys are who we should focus on and really spend time scouting. Heck if Crean gets the boot we may have a guy come here none of us have a clue about. Kinda how I felt with Sampson and Crean.

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We probably won't hear every coach they reach out to. Maybe Stevens. Both parties are private. I don't see us reaching out to Jay Wright. Not sure on Westbrook. I am sure like most searches Glass will have his initial feelers out then it would go to a consulting group if those people aren't available.


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[Feathery]

Im surprised ppl say they dont want Marshall. To me, he is a clear upgrade to Crean and its not even close. I can see arguements for not wanting him over Stevens or another candidate. Out of all the midmajor coaches he is #1. He is only leaving for a blue blood program, which he has stated. 

Here is a crazy stat, that makes me think Marshall is on the homerun list. In 18 years of head coaching, Greg Marshall has won 18 conference championships (regular season or tournament), 1 NIT championship, and 1 final four. The man averages a championship a year!!! I dont care what conference he is in, thats lights out. He can beat his peers with equal talent and he has done well in the NCAAs for having Midmajor talent as well. I would trade WSU last 5 seasons of March over Indiana, let that sink in. 

Im a believer that if he was at a blue blood program, increased talent would mean multiple final fours and a national title. 

[MikeRoberts]

Coach K has more pull to IU than any coach that hasn't played at IU. Stevens has said he won't come to IU. Donovan is not leaving the NBA for college. He has Westbrook. He just signed a 3 year deal. Again, Jay Wright said he isn't leaving and turned down opportunities to interview for the NBA last year. I don't know why everyone has a fixation that IU has pull to coaches in the NBA or coaches that recently won a title. They probably feel pretty damn comfortable. Why would a coach leave that for IU? Take your fandom out of the equation and look at this logically. After Knight? The top coaches had interest. After Sampson? Calipari had interest. At the time he was a mid major coach. We can get a damn good coach, but we aren't pulling those 3. Out of those three the best chance is Stevens imo.

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Who in their right mind that is employed would publically state that they would leave that job for another one without that said job in the bag already?

These guys saying they want to stay in their current job is only good until something better is presented to them. Maybe IU is better, maybe it isn't but we won't know until we offer them the job and they compare it to what they have and what they have and want may be quite fluid

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[American HoosierX]

2 hours ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

By now, most of you are aware that I like numbers.  So, I've gone back to 2012 and used 247Sports rankings of the incoming recruiting classes for some of the names being bandied about in this thread to compare recruiting efforts.  In a couple of cases, a school's class was outside the top 100 and you'll see the 'n.a.'    Be prepared for a surprise.

247Sports Ranking - Top 100	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	As of 1/24/17	Average
Tom Crean - Our Beloved	8	4	22	29	22	35	20
Chris Mack - Xavier	26	61	17	n.a.	28	10	28
Jay Wright - 'Nova	30	32	46	30	44	22	34
Tony Bennett - UVA	15	57	41	57	7	n.a.	35
Butler (Holtman since '15)	57	50	63	n.a.	45	17	46
Archie Miller - Dayton	n.a.	60	n.a.	91	71	n.a.	74

 

I'll be more than happy to add names as long as the request list doesn't get too out of hand.

In my opinion, team rankings can be fairly misleading due to their emphasis on the overall size of the class.  Because Crean tends to bring in large classes, Indiana skews toward consistently higher rankings.

It is true that Crean has done fairly well if you look at it from a team ranking perspective.  Over the last 5 years (12-16) he averages the 6th best recruiting class behind Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, Kansas, and UCLA with an average class ranking of right around 17 (as your data shows)  As an example of how class size can skew this, Louisville had the 89th ranked recruiting class in 2016 because they only had one recruit, even though that recruit happened to be a 5 star.  So despite the fact that they have had more or less 3 top five classes in that time frame (one was 6th), they aren't close to the top 10 in average.

If you look at things by average player ranking, things look quite a bit different.  Indiana finishes 22nd in average player ranking from 2012-2016 behind Kentucky, Duke, Syracuse, NC State, North Carolina, Kansas, Arizona, UCLA, Texas, Villanova, Louisville, Connecticut, San Diego State, Marquette, Stanford, UNLV, Virginia, Florida, Alabama, Maryland, and Michigan State.  You can certainly make an argument that this way of looking at things is unfair to Crean as he tends to take flyers on lower rated kids.  Adding a lower rated kid to an otherwise talented class isn't really making the class worse but it is dragging down the average. However, I think is a valuable counter measure to looking at this purely by team rankings.

My favorite comparison is Villanova because they come in at 10th in terms of average player rating at 93.92 (Indiana 90.91).  The reason their classes are rated so low is that they are always small...in the last 5 years they have taken classes of 2,3,2,2 and 3.  Villanova seems to be everyone's favorite example of how you don't need to recruit well to win.  I would argue with anyone saying they don't recruit well, they just don't recruit high volumes. In case you are wondering, in the last 5 years Indiana has taken 5, 3, 6, 6, and 5.