Do Not Fire Mike Woodson

[IUFAN1976]

4 minutes ago, coonhounds said:

I seen some posts in the fire mike woodson thread and couldn't bring myself to post this and argue or start a debate in that great thread. However woodson definitely did a decent job with tjd and ware imo. So saying tjd saved woodson may be true woodson needs some credit I think especially with ware. Jhs also did well under woodson for the most part. Woodson has had a few bright spots early on with special talents. Malik ballo and mcbako is not working out and I feel they are pretty special players with the proper coaching

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk
 

With TJD and JHS, it was more their drive and work ethic.  Ware was just talented and was in the right program for him to excel 

[IUHoosierJoe]

2 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

With TJD and JHS, it was more their drive and work ethic.  Ware was just talented and was in the right program for him to excel 

I’m certainly not a Woodson defender, but I find it amusing that when a player works hard we credit the player, and when a player doesn’t work hard we blame the coach.

[IUFAN1976]

19 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

I’m certainly not a Woodson defender, but I find it amusing that when a player works hard we credit the player, and when a player doesn’t work hard we blame the coach.

If a player isn’t a hard worker, that’s where the coach comes in to push the player.  TJD was a hard worker before Woodson got there and he definitely took advantage of Woodson’s style of play.  TJD’s leadership also had pushed his teammates to be better too.  That wasn’t Woodson.  

[AZ Hoosier]

24 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

With TJD and JHS, it was more their drive and work ethic.  Ware was just talented and was in the right program for him to excel 

Agree completely... it's like Crean getting credit for Oladipo and Sheehey ... both of those guys developed themselves with their work ethic.... especially Oladipo... some kids are just willing to do the work to get better... not sure Woodson deserves any credit for TJD or JHS. In Ware's case, I think it was more a change of scenery and getting away from Dana Altman.

[Scotty R]

1 minute ago, IUFAN1976 said:

If a player isn’t a hard worker, that’s where the coach comes in to push the player.  TJD was a hard worker before Woodson got there and he definitely took advantage of Woodson’s style of play.  TJD’s leadership also had pushed his teammates to be better too.  That wasn’t Woodson.  

I disagree about TJD because he played soft and didn't always play hard his first two years.

[coonhounds]

I’m certainly not a Woodson defender, but I find it amusing that when a player works hard we credit the player, and when a player doesn’t work hard we blame the coach.

It's also possible woodson did a decent job developing a few players while sucking at everything else

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[HoosierHoopster]

5 minutes ago, coonhounds said:

It's also possible woodson did a decent job developing a few players while sucking at everything else

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk
 

Agree. 
We all agree Woodson’s worn out his welcome here and should be let go or retire by season’s end, but not giving him any credit for any player development is, imo, just due to not liking him/wanting him gone.
TJD himself gave Woodson credit for pushing him to grow his game, and helping him. He did. Ware’s game exploded here. Sure he has drive and worked his tail off, but not giving Woodson any credit for his development isn’t a good look, imo. 
 

Guy needs to go, but doesn’t mean he hasn’t helped some guys grow their game — it was fun watching Ware grow.

[bigrod]

18 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Agree. 
We all agree Woodson’s worn out his welcome here and should be let go or retire by season’s end, but not giving him any credit for any player development is, imo, just due to not liking him/wanting him gone.
TJD himself gave Woodson credit for pushing him to grow his game, and helping him. He did. Ware’s game exploded here. Sure he has drive and worked his tail off, but not giving Woodson any credit for his development isn’t a good look, imo. 
 

Guy needs to go, but doesn’t mean he hasn’t helped some guys grow their game — it was fun watching Ware grow.

Serious question: What do you think Woodson taught Ware? Ware knew he had to do well to bury the idea that he wasn't a hard worker. He went to summer camps to improve. Woodson let him play the way he wanted to play, but is that really developing him? 

[Stuhoo]

People have short memories; Trayce was a talented underachiever who didn’t block shots under Archie. Woody’s system was awesome for Trayce.

[Muskie plays the four]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

People have short memories; Trayce was a talented underachiever who didn’t block shots under Archie. Woody’s system was awesome for Trayce.

Truth chasing blocks under nail , slot and rim got him paid. 

[IUFAN1976]

1 hour ago, AZ Hoosier said:

Agree completely... it's like Crean getting credit for Oladipo and Sheehey ... both of those guys developed themselves with their work ethic.... especially Oladipo... some kids are just willing to do the work to get better... not sure Woodson deserves any credit for TJD or JHS. In Ware's case, I think it was more a change of scenery and getting away from Dana Altman.

We definitely agree on all counts.  ME deserves no credit 

[IUFAN1976]

1 hour ago, Scotty R said:

I disagree about TJD because he played soft and didn't always play hard his first two years.

Seriously?  I just think he lacked experience!  

[HoosierHoopster]

1 hour ago, bigrod said:

Serious question: What do you think Woodson taught Ware? Ware knew he had to do well to bury the idea that he wasn't a hard worker. He went to summer camps to improve. Woodson let him play the way he wanted to play, but is that really developing him? 

Common denominator — both TJD and Ware slacked off and then grew their games significantly under Woodson. Just because both decided to work harder? Naah. Woodson built the team around TJD and demanded that he take on the role as a leader on the floor, expand his game going to either hand, facilitate the offense more. Similar development of Ware, after floundering in OR takes on immediate role of leading by example, growth of game on both ends, the focal player. Woodson to a fault is all about his key bigs. Similar growth in Malik’s game. I really can’t stand Woodson, but I’ll give him credit for helping his key bigs grow their games.

[akumanina]

6 hours ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

I’m certainly not a Woodson defender, but I find it amusing that when a player works hard we credit the player, and when a player doesn’t work hard we blame the coach.

Woody had some good players who helped win games. That's how he got an extension and a raise. So he did get a credit for his good players.

[Brass Cannon]

18 hours ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

I’m certainly not a Woodson defender, but I find it amusing that when a player works hard we credit the player, and when a player doesn’t work hard we blame the coach.

"A good objective of leadership is to help those who are doing poorly to do well and to help those who are doing well to do even better."
-Jim Rohn

It’s literally woodys job to help the players become better regardless of the issue. Sure you will fail sometimes because a player doesn’t want help. But that shouldn’t be the norm. And for 8 years more often than not we have been scratching our head at a lack of player development and sometimes regression. 
 

It’s a sign of an absence of leadership. 
 

I have been off work for 2 months and they didn’t even replace me because I built my team to not need me to be successful.  There were a handful of folks who didn’t want to help the team succeed. They were invited to find success elsewhere.  The 90% who wanted to do a good job were helped to do that.  

[RaceToTheTop]

20 hours ago, bigrod said:

Serious question: What do you think Woodson taught Ware? Ware knew he had to do well to bury the idea that he wasn't a hard worker. He went to summer camps to improve. Woodson let him play the way he wanted to play, but is that really developing him? 

Exactly what summer camps between his freshman and sophomore year of college are you referring to?  The difference between Ware at Oregon and Indiana wasn't just 'summer camps'.  And Ware had more freedom at Oregon in terms of shot selection -- a full 30% of his shots were from three.

Woody sucks as a coach but I don't think you can argue that TJD and Ware didn't greatly improve under him.

[Brass Cannon]

3 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Exactly what summer camps between his freshman and sophomore year of college are you referring to?  The difference between Ware at Oregon and Indiana wasn't just 'summer camps'.  And Ware had more freedom at Oregon in terms of shot selection -- a full 30% of his shots were from three.

Woody sucks as a coach but I don't think you can argue that TJD and Ware didn't greatly improve under him.

I think the telling thing though was even this board with all our crimson colored glasses didn’t see TJD doing what he is in the NBA. TJD improved some on his own and when he got real coaching he exploded.  Just a ton of untapped potential 

[Home Jersey]

7 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Exactly what summer camps between his freshman and sophomore year of college are you referring to?  The difference between Ware at Oregon and Indiana wasn't just 'summer camps'.  And Ware had more freedom at Oregon in terms of shot selection -- a full 30% of his shots were from three.

Woody sucks as a coach but I don't think you can argue that TJD and Ware didn't greatly improve under him.

Yes, agree with the bold. What I will say though, is, I think you can argue how much of the individual improvement you attribute to Woody directly vs. Calbert. I seem to recall a lot of coverage about Calbert putting in a ton of time with TJD in particular. I think Woody’s style of play in particular suited TJD well. I would’ve liked to see those teams with good guard play/perimeter D. Ware, I recall being talked about as a very “different” kind of kid… as in super introverted. I think Oregon was a toxic environment and Woody’s grandpa-esque nature may have helped get the best out of him here. I find it interesting that Woody said he never really had a big man as the focal point of his teams before TJD, but they’ve performed well for him. A combination of scheme, skill development, and some mental elements no doubt. Where the credit goes, suppose is in the eye of the beholder. I’d credit the players obviously far and away most.

[RaceToTheTop]

2 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

Yes, agree with the bold. What I will say though, is, I think you can argue how much of the individual improvement you attribute to Woody directly vs. Calbert. I seem to recall a lot of coverage about Calbert putting in a ton of time with TJD in particular. I think Woody’s style of play in particular suited TJD well. I would’ve liked to see those teams with good guard play/perimeter D. Ware, I recall being talked about as a very “different” kind of kid… as in super introverted. I think Oregon was a toxic environment and Woody’s grandpa-esque nature may have helped get the best out of him here. I find it interesting that Woody said he never really had a big man as the focal point of his teams before TJD, but they’ve performed well for him. A combination of scheme, skill development, and some mental elements no doubt. 

Ultimately I couldn't care less why players improve or a coaching scheme works whether it is the head coach or staff he hires around him.  There are plenty of bad X and O's head coaches that succeed because they surround themselves with people in the know and LISTEN to them.  I would not put Woodson in that camp.

[coonhounds]

Happy new year to all the true and especially you untrue hoosier fans!
And oh yea let's hope 25 is woodson last as head coach

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk