Liam decomitting

[str8baller 4,937]

5 minutes ago, Tropiiix said:

We have to build a culture. Bob Knights Legacy is gone. We are not that program any more. we can't win now it isn't that easy. Our brand doesn't have the power of Duke, UNC, Kansas, or even Uconn to kids now days. We have to rebuild it. We need stability. We need Woody to retire and move on that way. 

You build a culture by winning. That comes from the head coach. It doesn’t matter if they unceremoniously catapult Woody and his humidor into Lake Monroe. Nobody will even remember how it happened if the next guy is a winner. 

[AZ Hoosier 6,343]

8 minutes ago, Tropiiix said:

I mean this with all due respect, having old fans is no reason for putting all your chips in on firing another coach, going 100% for broke, and maybe making things worse. RESPECTFULLY. 

 

We have to build a culture. Bob Knights Legacy is gone. We are not that program any more. we can't win now it isn't that easy. Our brand doesn't have the power of Duke, UNC, Kansas, or even Uconn to kids now days. We have to rebuild it. We need stability. We need Woody to retire and move on that way. 

Is the "Woodson culture" the culture that will move IU ahead? Ancient basketball style, only 5-star mercenaries as players, zero effort in teaching, coaching and recruiting, being told by the AD to go see your major recruiting targets play, failing to make any meaningful connection with HS coaches, AAU coaches and players and their families?

Yeah, that's no culture that I want for IU. Mediocre Mike Woodson must go. Now.

[JSHoosier 19,714]

3 minutes ago, Tropiiix said:

I mean this with all due respect, having old fans is no reason for putting all your chips in on firing another coach, going 100% for broke, and maybe making things worse. RESPECTFULLY. 

 

We have to build a culture. Bob Knights Legacy is gone. We are not that program any more. we can't win now it isn't that easy. Our brand doesn't have the power of Duke, UNC, Kansas, or even Uconn to kids now days. We have to rebuild it. We need stability. We need Woody to retire and move on that way. 

Woodson is in year 3 and doesn't even have a foundation because of how poorly he's done. He has absolutely no clue what it takes at this level, or knows and feels he doesn't have to, and at his age he probably won't change. A culture, no chance. Coaches have to earn stability, giving bad coaches more time just delays the inevitable; our problem is giving bad coaches too much time.

 

[Demo 19,175]

9 hours ago, Hoosier987 said:

If the stuff out there that Woody never communicated with the kid is accurate, I’m confident that also played a part. The kid talked non-stop about relationships during his recruitment. Zero percent chance it had anything to do with the fans. Zero. Was probably the most beloved recruit by the fan base since Langford and he ate it up.

[IUFAN1976 2,677]

1 hour ago, JSHoosier said:

Convince him to retire, whatever. Get rid of the problem now before he makes things worse.

If they were that concerned about program image when it comes to firing him then they shouldn't have hired him to begin with, he was never a good choice and the odds of an ugly split were high. They made their bed.

Even if they tried to convince to retire, they won’t succeed because Woodson is to stubborn and has convinced himself that his plan will work.  I bet if you asked him if he feels he is doing a good job running the program, he will say yes, even after the Liam de-commit

[Stuhoo 78,425]

 

The explanation that makes by far the most sense to me?

• That McNeeley has been planning to decommit for awhile.
• That Queen confirming he was not going to IU officially sealed it.
• That a new coach would not have changed that. He was not going to play for Woodson, and he was not going to play for a new coach that he had zero relationship with.
• That Kansas has already worked with his representatives to guarantee a roster spot and a role.
• That McNeeley was hoping for an IU coaching change so that he could get the 'auto-release'.
• That when IU said Woody was back the 'auto-release' was no longer an option, so he announced the de-commitment.

 

[JSHoosier 19,714]

8 minutes ago, Demo said:

If the stuff out there that Woody never communicated with the kid is accurate, I’m confident that also played a part. The kid talked non-stop about relationships during his recruitment. Zero percent chance it had anything to do with the fans. Zero. Was probably the most beloved recruit by the fan base since Langford and he ate it up.

Stopped communicating. No class coming in after whiffing on Fland and Queen. Not going to win with Woodson. Antiquated offense that'll relegate him to a few shots and feeding the post.

All things that are the fans' fault, obviously.

[JSHoosier 19,714]

2 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Even if they tried to convince to retire, they won’t succeed because Woodson is to stubborn and has convinced himself that his plan will work.  I bet if you asked him if he feels he is doing a good job running the program, he will say yes, even after the Liam de-commit

Then you take the blackeye and fire him. He steered the ship into an iceberg, don't make the mistake of thinking he'll save it.

[IUFAN1976 2,677]

19 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

Not over Liam. But, this does not bode well for portal season. Hard to give him a 4th year if you're not convinced he can field a team.

I for one am not convinced he can field a competitive team that will at least make the tournament, he will field a team but a bunch of walkon’s won’t cut it!

[IUCrazy2 2,277]

1 hour ago, Tropiiix said:

I just think there's a better way to allow him to retire after next season that sets us up for smoother waters ahead. NOW, do I think that is how things will actually go? No probably not. Next year will be a circus, the calls for his job will be worse then this year, recruiting will be horrible again because of the uncertainty of the next year but yeah, I can dream. If I'm the Lisan al Gaib I see many paths in front of us. In so many of them the program burns in the bottom of the B1G, but there's a narrow way through, a way to usher a new era that is smooth and respectable.

How much do they pay you to come on to message boards and defend their incompetence?  Or did you really wake up at like 6 this morning and say to yourself, "You know what, today is the day I get on a basketball forum and decide to tell all these other fans just how toxic they are and how much we need to just let Woody do his thing..."

 

[True Fan 38]

22 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

You’re not firing him for “1 bad season.”   You’re firing him for the epic failure to build any kind of foundation. By this time he should have a bunch of HS recruits signed for next year and a bunch lined up for next year.  He has ZERO.  Doesn’t even want to recruit HS players.  He’s destroyed IU basketball.  

The foundation was starting to look pretty solid with JHS and Reneau.  Unfortunately, Chaney did too good of a job of developing JHS and turning him into a one and done.

Please do tell, in your opinion, what definition of success looks like for Woodson in 3 years at IU?  Don't give me vague things like "build a foundation". 

Here are some numbers:
Archie Miller in 4 Seasons: NCAA tournament appearances - 0.  Big Ten Record 33W and 43L.  Overall Record 67W and 56L

Woodson in (almost 3 seasons): NCAA tournament appearances - 2.  Big Ten Record 30W 29L. Overall Record 61W 39L

That is objectively a step in the right direction.  Getting back to a true basketball powerhouse is a journey that will take longer than 3 years.  We can't expect every coach to take us from trash to championship in 3 years and then get rid of them.  I'm not a Woodson fanboy either.  I hate his style of basketball.  I'm all for getting rid of him, I just don't think you can fire him for moving the numbers in the right direction without it being detrimental to your chances of getting a great coach.  We need him to resign to "spend more time with his grandkids" or something along those lines.

The recruiting is really disappointing.  The combination of NIL and portal does change your recruiting approach though.  For example, I really liked what Woodson had going with the Montverde pipeline, but unfortunately that may be up in flames now.  Seems like the philosophy was always use NIL to land the 5 stars and use NIL to land the proven 3/4 star guys from the portal.  No reason to spend time recruiting too many unproven 3/4 stars out of high school with the portal. I thought this made a lot of sense, but it will be put to the test this portal season.

[IUCrazy2 2,277]

1 hour ago, codesbane said:

I'm firmly in the "running him out after 1 bad season is going to do more damage to the program long term than keeping him around another year" camp.  If we fire him after missing the tournament one year what type of coach (who is actually worth having) is going to even want to come to our program.  I think this is especially true when coupled with the fact that it isn't like we were projected to be great this year.  We were projected to be mediocre and middle of the pack in the Big Ten.  Do I think we under performed a bit? Yes, but I think it is a bad bad bad look for the program if we run him out now.  

Also all you acting like you aren't part of the problem is copium.  The toxic fanbase is absolutely part of the problem.  I'm sure Liam's decision was much more complicated than "Woodson isn't going to let me shoot" or the "fanbase is toxic".  Like anything else in life I'm sure it was a complicated decision with many contributing factors with Woodson's recruiting (lack of), Woodson's style, the toxic fanbase, and who knows what else being contributing factors.

Anyways my two cents. Light me up.

How is this for toxic, anyone blaming the fans can sit on a cheese grater and rotate.

[IUFAN1976 2,677]

Also, he had the making of a good team this year and all he had to do was land at least 1 quality shooting guard from the portal but he couldn’t even do that.  Instead he had the “let it ride” mentality and thought X and Gallo would take him to the promised land and all that while leaving an open scholarship.  By the way, we probably needed a decent point guard out of the portal as well, but at minimum we needed a strong shooter.

[Golfman25 4,864]

32 minutes ago, Tropiiix said:

I mean this with all due respect, having old fans is no reason for putting all your chips in on firing another coach, going 100% for broke, and maybe making things worse. RESPECTFULLY. 

 

We have to build a culture. Bob Knights Legacy is gone. We are not that program any more. we can't win now it isn't that easy. Our brand doesn't have the power of Duke, UNC, Kansas, or even Uconn to kids now days. We have to rebuild it. We need stability. We need Woody to retire and move on that way. 

He has zero interest in that.  He wants to take the “easy” way.  A team of free agent mercenaries.  But he can’t even do that well. 

[Tropiiix 7]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

How much do they pay you to come on to message boards and defend their incompetence?  Or did you really wake up at like 6 this morning and say to yourself, "You know what, today is the day I get on a basketball forum and decide to tell all these other fans just how toxic they are and how much we need to just let Woody do his thing..."

 

Yeah the latter is correct. Although I don't think I've said the fans are toxic once... Nor have I said Woodson's "thing" is working, or going to work. I just don't agree that firing him now will help the program long run. I think image is important and he needs to retire for our image. If we don't have a good portal, win 10 games next year, can't recruit again, and he refuses to retire... then yeah you probably have to fire him.

[True Fan 38]

4 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Also, he had the making of a good team this year and all he had to do was land at least 1 quality shooting guard from the portal but he couldn’t even do that.  Instead he had the “let it ride” mentality and thought X and Gallo would take him to the promised land and all that while leaving an open scholarship.  By the way, we probably needed a decent point guard out of the portal as well, but at minimum we needed a strong shooter.

I'm sure the guards were lining up to come to IU when we are returning a 6 year point guard and a 4th year wing who shot 40+ percent from deep.  Do you even consider that or are you just assuming Woodson was sitting there doing nothing?

[Demo 19,175]

21 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

The explanation that makes by far the most sense to me?

• That McNeeley has been planning to decommit for awhile.
• That Queen confirming he was not going to IU officially sealed it.
• That a new coach would not have changed that. He was not going to play for Woodson, and he was not going to play for a new coach that he had zero relationship with.
• That Kansas has already worked with his representatives to guarantee a roster spot and a role.
• That McNeeley was hoping for an IU coaching change so that he could get the 'auto-release'.
• That when IU said Woody was back the 'auto-release' was no longer an option, so he announced the de-commitment.

 

I imagine this is pretty close. Guessing that watching Mgbako the 1st 20 games or so standing around in the weak corner and the ball never finding him and the offense running fewer actions for him than for Kopp didn’t exactly turn him on. Pity, because he’s gonna be a really useful PnR facilitator.

[str8baller 4,937]

10 minutes ago, codesbane said:

I'm all for getting rid of him, I just don't think you can fire him for moving the numbers in the right direction without it being detrimental to your chances of getting a great coach.

Your whole premise rests on this logical fallacy. If you remove that, you’ve described the same reasons to get fire him as every one else.  
 

With all due respect, being nice to a bad coach and having your AD say “pretty please” aren’t how you land a great coach. If anything that sort of mickey mouse BS turns off great hires. Nobody wants to work with people who are soft and uncompetitive, if they themselves are maniacally competitive and driven. 

[True Fan 38]

5 minutes ago, Tropiiix said:

Yeah the latter is correct. Although I don't think I've said the fans are toxic once... Nor have I said Woodson's "thing" is working, or going to work. I just don't agree that firing him now will help the program long run. I think image is important and he needs to retire for our image. If we don't have a good portal, win 10 games next year, can't recruit again, and he refuses to retire... then yeah you probably have to fire him.

I think they confused you with me.  I'm the toxic fanbase guy, apparently.

[Golfman25 4,864]

11 minutes ago, codesbane said:

The foundation was starting to look pretty solid with JHS and Reneau.  Unfortunately, Chaney did too good of a job of developing JHS and turning him into a one and done.

Please do tell, in your opinion, what definition of success looks like for Woodson in 3 years at IU?  Don't give me vague things like "build a foundation". 

Here are some numbers:
Archie Miller in 4 Seasons: NCAA tournament appearances - 0.  Big Ten Record 33W and 43L.  Overall Record 67W and 56L

Woodson in (almost 3 seasons): NCAA tournament appearances - 2.  Big Ten Record 30W 29L. Overall Record 61W 39L

That is objectively a step in the right direction.  Getting back to a true basketball powerhouse is a journey that will take longer than 3 years.  We can't expect every coach to take us from trash to championship in 3 years and then get rid of them.  I'm not a Woodson fanboy either.  I hate his style of basketball.  I'm all for getting rid of him, I just don't think you can fire him for moving the numbers in the right direction without it being detrimental to your chances of getting a great coach.  We need him to resign to "spend more time with his grandkids" or something along those lines.

The recruiting is really disappointing.  The combination of NIL and portal does change your recruiting approach though.  For example, I really liked what Woodson had going with the Montverde pipeline, but unfortunately that may be up in flames now.  Seems like the philosophy was always use NIL to land the 5 stars and use NIL to land the proven 3/4 star guys from the portal.  No reason to spend time recruiting too many unproven 3/4 stars out of high school with the portal. I thought this made a lot of sense, but it will be put to the test this portal season.

It’s pretty simple.  You need 3-4 incoming HS recruits per year.  You fill unexpected vacancies via the portal.  In 2022 he had Gunn, Banks, JHS and Malik. That’s good.  2023 he had Cupps, MM, and Newton.  Not too shabby.  In 2024 he has zero, zip, nada.   In 2025 he has zero and doesn’t even care to go look.  That by all accounts is an epic failure and is damaging to the program.  
 

He’s going to need 5-7+ from the portal to even field a team next season.  Of the top 50 portal players, even the best programs in the nation only got 2-3.   And he has no interest in developing players outside of that top 50.  You keep Woodson and the program sinks to depths we haven’t seen since Sampson to Crean.