They “Retired” Coach Woodson Thread

[AH1971]

12 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We’ve taken 22+ threes in a game 16 times during the 103 games Mike Woodson has coached at IU. 15.5% of his games. We did it 4 times in 33 games this past season. But, sure, we’re going to start averaging 22+ a game now. Very likely. 

We also started Cupps and Galloway for 75% of the season last year. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

8 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

We also started Cupps and Galloway for 75% of the season last year. 

Why do you pretend that last year was Woodson’s first season at IU? In three years at IU his teams have finished 13th, 14th, and 14th in the conference in three point attempts. He has said that it’s not his job to get his shooters shots. He has said that he thinks basketball is played inside out. He’s telling you that the 3 isn’t a focus for him, and he’s showing you too. How much proof do you need? 

[AH1971]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Why do you pretend that last year was Woodson’s first season at IU? In three years at IU his teams have finished 13th, 14th, and 14th in the conference in three point attempts. He has said that it’s not his job to get his shooters shots. He has said that he thinks basketball is played inside out. He’s telling you that the 3 isn’t a focus for him, and he’s showing you too. How much proof do you need? 

Because he’s had one guard (Kopp) who could be categorized as a shooter in 3 years who could shoot consistently on any kind of volume. Don’t over think this one man.

[IU Prof]

I think what some people are missing is that while 3 point shooting volume is an issue, it's just one of many with Woodson's system. If it were just a trade off between 3s or close 2s by TJD or Reneau, that would be one thing. But that isn't what we're seeing.

Instead, IU consistently shoots substantially more long to mid-range 2s than is mathematically efficient. 

Here is IU's full season shot chart compared to UConn's. As you can see, IU shoots many more long 2s than does an efficient modern offense.

This is a schematic issue, not a talent issue. While one can at least semi plausibly argue that Woodson's hand was forced on 3 point shooting by a lack of backcourt talent last year (although it doesn't really hold up over 3 years for the reasons a number of people have noted), that's hard to reconcile with IU's over reliance on long 2s that same season. 

If the team is bad at shooting, then there is no reason to be taking so many mid ranged jumpers. But that is a shot that Woodson's system prioritizes, even though the analytics on the inefficiency of such an approach are clear.

Thus, while a lack of explanation point shooting volume is certainly an issue, it's just one symptom of the larger problem: Woodson's insistence on running an outdated offensive scheme.

[Feathery]

11 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I think what some people are missing is that while 3 point shooting volume is an issue, it's just one of many with Woodson's system. If it were just a trade off between 3s or close 2s by TJD or Reneau, that would be one thing. But that isn't what we're seeing.

Instead, IU consistently shoots substantially more long to mid-range 2s than is mathematically efficient. 

Here is IU's full season shot chart compared to UConn's. As you can see, IU shoots many more long 2s than does an efficient modern offense.

This is a schematic issue, not a talent issue. While one can at least semi plausibly argue that Woodson's hand was forced on 3 point shooting by a lack of backcourt talent last year (although it doesn't really hold up over 3 years for the reasons a number of people have noted), that's hard to reconcile with IU's over reliance on long 2s that same season. 

If the team is bad at shooting, then there is no reason to be taking so many mid ranged jumpers. But that is a shot that Woodson's system prioritizes, even though the analytics on the inefficiency of such an approach are clear.

Thus, while a lack of explanation point shooting volume is certainly an issue, it's just one symptom of the larger problem: Woodson's insistence on running an outdated offensive scheme.

Looks like IU is missing a ton of shots not at the rim. Point is the guards have sucked as a group for years. This goes back through the Archie years too. Shafino was fine as a freshman but had no backcourt help. Langford played hurt but also didn’t have much backcourt help. Been my biggest frustration with the program since Yogi. 
 

edit. I’d love a Bama style offense.  But it’s not happening and offensive style doesn’t get someone fired. So we are playing the system we are playing. The question is with quality guards at what level does it actually work. We are about to find out. 

[RaceToTheTop]

9 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I think what some people are missing is that while 3 point shooting volume is an issue, it's just one of many with Woodson's system. If it were just a trade off between 3s or close 2s by TJD or Reneau, that would be one thing. But that isn't what we're seeing.

Instead, IU consistently shoots substantially more long to mid-range 2s than is mathematically efficient. 

Here is IU's full season shot chart compared to UConn's. As you can see, IU shoots many more long 2s than does an efficient modern offense.

This is a schematic issue, not a talent issue. While one can at least semi plausibly argue that Woodson's hand was forced on 3 point shooting by a lack of backcourt talent last year (although it doesn't really hold up over 3 years for the reasons a number of people have noted), that's hard to reconcile with IU's over reliance on long 2s that same season. 

If the team is bad at shooting, then there is no reason to be taking so many mid ranged jumpers. But that is a shot that Woodson's system prioritizes, even though the analytics on the inefficiency of such an approach are clear.

Thus, while a lack of explanation point shooting volume is certainly an issue, it's just one symptom of the larger problem: Woodson's insistence on running an outdated offensive scheme.

You are correct in that the shot chart map does not look good last year.  What's interesting is that in Woodson's first year, it did look a little better -- still more long twos than U Conn's map this year, but better than IU's map from 2023-24 -- while last year's map looks similar to this year's map EXCEPT much more red on the 15 to 18 foot range.  Most likely that is due to JHS and Kopp's abilities to hit those shots.

[Hoosierfan2017]

52 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Because he’s had one guard (Kopp) who could be categorized as a shooter in 3 years who could shoot consistently on any kind of volume. Don’t over think this one man.

I mean, isn’t not prioritizing shooters in terms of who he brings in not also a sign that he doesn’t emphasize the 3?

[AH1971]

57 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I think what some people are missing is that while 3 point shooting volume is an issue, it's just one of many with Woodson's system. If it were just a trade off between 3s or close 2s by TJD or Reneau, that would be one thing. But that isn't what we're seeing.

Instead, IU consistently shoots substantially more long to mid-range 2s than is mathematically efficient. 

Here is IU's full season shot chart compared to UConn's. As you can see, IU shoots many more long 2s than does an efficient modern offense.

This is a schematic issue, not a talent issue. While one can at least semi plausibly argue that Woodson's hand was forced on 3 point shooting by a lack of backcourt talent last year (although it doesn't really hold up over 3 years for the reasons a number of people have noted), that's hard to reconcile with IU's over reliance on long 2s that same season. 

If the team is bad at shooting, then there is no reason to be taking so many mid ranged jumpers. But that is a shot that Woodson's system prioritizes, even though the analytics on the inefficiency of such an approach are clear.

Thus, while a lack of explanation point shooting volume is certainly an issue, it's just one symptom of the larger problem: Woodson's insistence on running an outdated offensive scheme.

Nobody is missing anything. When you’re hamstrung by a group of guards that collectively stink, you’re limited in what you can run efficiently. I don’t know how or why that is so hard for some people to understand? Now that blame lies squarely on Woodson and the staff and it shouldn’t have taken hair on fire to properly correct it, but expecting IU to be an efficient, volume 3 point shooting team with the backcourt personnel IU’s had the last few seasons isn’t living in reality. There is a big influx in talent coming next year paired with a big that compliments their style of play. There’s no excuse next year, it’s either going to change or he isn’t going to have a job. Those are his options.

[AH1971]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I mean, isn’t not prioritizing shooters in terms of who he brings in not also a sign that he doesn’t emphasize the 3?

He recruited Caleb Love and Knecht in the portal last year. He had a verbal from the best shooting prospect in the country. But  more importantly than just shooting, he’s recognized the need for playmaking guards. 

[Banksyrules]

Taking a break from looking at this site for a month because I have my Rangers and Knicks in the playoffs but after much contemplation and humility I just want to say…. FIRE MIKE WOODSON! 

Peace out homies. 

[Feathery]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I mean, isn’t not prioritizing shooters in terms of who he brings in not also a sign that he doesn’t emphasize the 3?

I think he wrongly thought he could get the shooting needed with who was on the roster. His biggest fault is the roster management. And that issue has created so many other issues. 

[IU - Kaulie]

23 hours ago, AH1971 said:

What playmakers, shooters, etc were running the offense last year that you speak of? What guard could even create his own shot? Ballo is not a post-dominant big who you force feed every time down, clearly you’ve never seen him play. 

Gallo had no problem creating for himself and others when he was operating at point guard.

I agree with you on Ballo.  I have seen him play, and no you don’t force feed him every time down.  Where I probably disagree with you is that is exactly what CMW will try to do.  Not every time down, but Ballo will get touches that he shouldn’t get.  That’s plain and simple the three year track record of CMW.  He wants to play through the post, and as recently as this offseason has still said as much.  I’m hoping, no I’m begging that changes, but until we see otherwise …..

[RaceToTheTop]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I mean, isn’t not prioritizing shooters in terms of who he brings in not also a sign that he doesn’t emphasize the 3?

Damn, HF2017, I got lost trying in number of 'nots' and don't know how to answer.  Let's see...isn't not = is?  So wouldn't that read 'is prioritizing shooters in terms of who he bring in'?

[IUc2016]

27 minutes ago, IU - Kaulie said:

Gallo had no problem creating for himself and others when he was operating at point guard.

I agree with you on Ballo.  I have seen him play, and no you don’t force feed him every time down.  Where I probably disagree with you is that is exactly what CMW will try to do.  Not every time down, but Ballo will get touches that he shouldn’t get.  That’s plain and simple the three year track record of CMW.  He wants to play through the post, and as recently as this offseason has still said as much.  I’m hoping, no I’m begging that changes, but until we see otherwise …..

We stopped posting up ware as much midway through the season and got him the ball moving in space instead. He was way more effective and dominant.

I hope we use ballo the same. But worried we won’t. 

[AH1971]

37 minutes ago, IU - Kaulie said:

Gallo had no problem creating for himself and others when he was operating at point guard.

I agree with you on Ballo.  I have seen him play, and no you don’t force feed him every time down.  Where I probably disagree with you is that is exactly what CMW will try to do.  Not every time down, but Ballo will get touches that he shouldn’t get.  That’s plain and simple the three year track record of CMW.  He wants to play through the post, and as recently as this offseason has still said as much.  I’m hoping, no I’m begging that changes, but until we see otherwise …..

I guess we just have differing definitions of playmaking. Will concede that Trey had good facilitating numbers but 10 points on 9 shots shooting 26/56 from 3/FT is awful to put it bluntly, out of a lead guard no less. He was subpar finishing at the rim and even worse when teams made him earn it. Was not a threat to shoot from the perimeter or in PnR. And he was the best back court player we had which says a lot. 
 

Ballo will definitely get paint touches, but his points and shots will come off lobs in PnR action and off drive and dumps just like they did at Arizona. He’ll likely score more off the glass than anything. But I think it’s paranoia at this point to suggest Woodson’s offense is going to revolve entirely around Ballo like it did TJD/Ware the last three seasons. He’s just not that kind of player.

[go iu bb]

15 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

We stopped posting up ware as much midway through the season and got him the ball moving in space instead. He was way more effective and dominant.

I hope we use ballo the same. But worried we won’t. 

We've seen that lessons learned one season are forgotten by the time the next season comes around with this staff.

[str8baller]

4 hours ago, AH1971 said:

I just can't fathom an argument where you'd advocate a collection of Galloway, Cupps, Xavier Johnson (when healthy), and Anthony Leal shooting MORE three pointers than they already did.

Uh... they all have shot 3s at a higher clip than the guys you think will come in and suddenly start shooting 3s. That doesn't even include guys like Kopp and Ware. 

Your argument is literally we can't have those guys shooting more 3s because they shoot them at a higher percentage than the guys coming in who will shoot more 3s. Lol... 

Somehow,  you've actually deciphered the Mike Woodsons offense. Having stared into Woodsonpost offense and having it stare back,  I can conclusively say....Fire Mike Woodson!

[IU - Kaulie]

4 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I guess we just have differing definitions of playmaking. Will concede that Trey had good facilitating numbers but 10 points on 9 shots shooting 26/56 from 3/FT is awful to put it bluntly, out of a lead guard no less. He was subpar finishing at the rim and even worse when teams made him earn it. Was not a threat to shoot from the perimeter or in PnR. And he was the best back court player we had which says a lot. 
 

Ballo will definitely get paint touches, but his points and shots will come off lobs in PnR action and off drive and dumps just like they did at Arizona. He’ll likely score more off the glass than anything. But I think it’s paranoia at this point to suggest Woodson’s offense is going to revolve entirely around Ballo like it did TJD/Ware the last three seasons. He’s just not that kind of player.

Again,  I agree Ballo is not that type of player.  He gets his points on dunks and offensive rebounds.  However, Woodson is still going to run his offense through the post.  Most of that’s going to be MR, but Ballo will get some touches.  I don’t see us putting up 25 threes a game you suggest.  I would love it if we did, but Woodson’s track record does not support that.  It’s not just the studs like TJD/Ware. We would throw it into Race.  Heck, every time Michael Durr was in the game in his one year here we would throw it into him.   This is not a personnel thing this is a system thing.  When the man himself has repeatedly said that he believes the college game is still run through the post and there has been no evidence to suggest that he doesn’t believe that then I don’t know what else to say.

[IUc2016]

22 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I guess we just have differing definitions of playmaking. Will concede that Trey had good facilitating numbers but 10 points on 9 shots shooting 26/56 from 3/FT is awful to put it bluntly, out of a lead guard no less. He was subpar finishing at the rim and even worse when teams made him earn it. Was not a threat to shoot from the perimeter or in PnR. And he was the best back court player we had which says a lot. 
 

Ballo will definitely get paint touches, but his points and shots will come off lobs in PnR action and off drive and dumps just like they did at Arizona. He’ll likely score more off the glass than anything. But I think it’s paranoia at this point to suggest Woodson’s offense is going to revolve entirely around Ballo like it did TJD/Ware the last three seasons. He’s just not that kind of player.

I so hope you are right.

But I don’t know how you can say it is paranoia to suggest the offense will revolve around ballo. Given the three years we have already and the fact we paid him $1million (or close to it). the focus on guards this portal has been refreshing, but still a lot to be concerned about regarding the offense and who will get the most touches 

[Shooter]

59 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I guess we just have differing definitions of playmaking. Will concede that Trey had good facilitating numbers but 10 points on 9 shots shooting 26/56 from 3/FT is awful to put it bluntly, out of a lead guard no less. He was subpar finishing at the rim and even worse when teams made him earn it. Was not a threat to shoot from the perimeter or in PnR. And he was the best back court player we had which says a lot. 
 

Ballo will definitely get paint touches, but his points and shots will come off lobs in PnR action and off drive and dumps just like they did at Arizona. He’ll likely score more off the glass than anything. But I think it’s paranoia at this point to suggest Woodson’s offense is going to revolve entirely around Ballo like it did TJD/Ware the last three seasons. He’s just not that kind of player.

"Subpar finishing at the rim" could not be farther from the truth on Galloway. He shot 58% on 2s last year on pretty high volume, which is outstanding for a guard. Second best 2PT% for a guard in the Big Ten.