Fire Coach Woodson Thread

[HoosierAloha 30,020]

Not sure you can define a good vs bad season before the season plays out. We could have a decent record but get blown out against any legit competition again. We could finish second in the Big Ten but not really be close to competing for a conference championship again.

The talent seems to be there for a high level and deep team to compete for championships. However, this wouldn’t be the first team that was supposed to be talented and deep but failed.

[Dave from Dayton 2,786]

Okay, I will defend Archie Miller.  Kind of...

At the University of Dayton, Archie Miller's teams performances were arguably the best ever at that mid major.  The teams performed as a team.  Teammates bought into his tactics and strategies.  They helped.  The teams were much better on the court than one estimated by pre-season statistics.  He came in and the cupboard was bare.  Brian Gregory would have been cut loose if he didn't go elsewhere.  Archie got the teams to win at least 24 games and into the NCAAT his 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th years with UD.  He had the support of the team, the fans and the University.

At Indiana University Archie Miller's teams struggled to be mediocre.  They did not get into the top half of the conference in wins.  His teams went 67-58 overall and 33-44 in the Big Ten.  No NCAAT and pathetic against Purdue.  His recruiting and on-court performance was what stuck a pin in his coaching at IU.  

I was surprised when IU hired Archie Miller.  He was about my 6th or 7th choice.  Wondered at the time whether his success would transfer.  I have stated on this site my thoughts on why he did not have more success at IU.  Suffice it to say that he seemed to not be supported by the AD as much as Coach Woodson has been.  Locker room issues and the lack of a consistent Big Ten caliber point guard...and the team not buying into his defense, stuck a pin in each and every season...except maybe one Covid interrupted year.  And the administration seemed to tie his hands...but I am not entirely sure about the latter.

  Reflecting on whether Miller was the right choice at IU...obviously...no.  He had a defense-first state of mind.  The coach and the team at IU before him was just the opposite.  Archie could not and did not get the team to buy in.  I blame the AD for hiring the wrong guy with the wrong strategies for following Tom Crean's 'play faster' on offense scheme.  Archie should have gotten rid of certain members of the team.  But could he have recruited his way out of that mess?   Yeah, right.

His teams have not jelled at Rhode Island either.  Why?  It is because he cannot sell NBA success stories.  He cannot sell today's offense over defense mindset.  In spite of his understanding of X's and O's...he just can't and doesn't recruit well.  He has nothing to sell.  Too bad.  He was great at Dayton.  Now he cannot get out of the crappy sack that IU put him in.

 

 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,357]

11 hours ago, AH1971 said:

That dude wasn’t alive to have seen Knight coach.

Yeah, my IU basketball experience has been the post-Knight s***show. Lucky me. 

The Bob Knight comments are just stupid. First, he wasn’t dumb enough to attack his own fanbase. Second, he sure as hell wouldn’t say that he did his job after a season as disastrous as last season. Third, he won 4 conference titles in his first five seasons at IU. He lost 10 conference games total in his first five seasons. Mike Woodson lost 10 conference games last year alone. Bad personalities are much more tolerable when they’re exceptional at their jobs. Mediocre Mike hasn't won anything other than his four offseason championships. 

[Ryno6284 2,539]

LOL at the edited thread title!

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,771]

39 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Yeah, my IU basketball experience has been the post-Knight s***show. Lucky me. 

The Bob Knight comments are just stupid. First, he wasn’t dumb enough to attack his own fanbase. Second, he sure as hell wouldn’t say that he did his job after a season as disastrous as last season. Third, he won 4 conference titles in his first five seasons at IU. He lost 10 conference games total in his first five seasons. Mike Woodson lost 10 conference games last year alone. Bad personalities are much more tolerable when they’re exceptional at their jobs. Mediocre Mike hasn't won anything other than his four offseason championships. 

Right. Just win games, and you'll be a good guy! 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,771]

1 hour ago, Juwan Moye said:

For the sunshine pumpers:

 

With all of that sunshine you’re pumping, what should expectations for this year? If you’re so confident in our great coach let’s hear what a good year looks like versus what a bad result looks like that should get coach fired.

Where are these posts? Find them for me. 

I'll let you know how the year went on about April 10th of next year. Sorry that Archie sucked worse than Woodson sucks. 

[Juwan Moye 213]

1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:

Not sure you can define a good vs bad season before the season plays out. We could have a decent record but get blown out against any legit competition again. We could finish second in the Big Ten but not really be close to competing for a conference championship again.

The talent seems to be there for a high level and deep team to compete for championships. However, this wouldn’t be the first team that was supposed to be talented and deep but failed.

Right, but you could set an expectation there:

”no embarrassing losses and realistically competing for a B1G title late in the season”

I’m just curious what the Woodson defenders think. I agree with them that the roster looks better but I think we’ll underperform our talent because we have a mediocre coach.

 

[Juwan Moye 213]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Where are these posts? Find them for me. 

I'll let you know how the year went on about April 10th of next year. Sorry that Archie sucked worse than Woodson sucks. 

Find posts defending Woodson? Nah, they’re everywhere, you can find those pretty easily.

Not sure why you mention Archie, I don’t care about that guy. Just what people who defend Woodson think success looks like. Copping out by saying you can’t is certainly one way to answer it.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 8,771]

4 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Find posts defending Woodson? Nah, they’re everywhere, you can find those pretty easily.

Not sure why you mention Archie, I don’t care about that guy. Just what people who defend Woodson think success looks like. Copping out by saying you can’t is certainly one way to answer it.

That's not what I asked. I asked you where the sunshine pumping posts were. 

It's May 16th, it's laughable to think anyone could answer that. 

[Stuhoo 77,872]

26 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Find posts defending Woodson? Nah, they’re everywhere, you can find those pretty easily.

Not sure why you mention Archie, I don’t care about that guy. Just what people who defend Woodson think success looks like. Copping out by saying you can’t is certainly one way to answer it.

You went from stating a sunshine pumper thinks Woody is a "great coach" to saying that posts "defending Woodson" are everywhere.

Those are two very different things.

I think there are reasons to defend him:

• immediate tourney bids with a roster that the former coach failed with,
• player retention,
• alumni financial support,
• NBA development leading to better recruiting,
• his teams don't mail it in when they are faced with mid-season adversity
• portal success beyond any expectations; even when compared with other big-money programs.

HOWEVER, I would not and will not call him a "great coach."

[Dave from Dayton 2,786]

Looking at the players, individually.  And looking at the spots that they fill...

Point Guard:  During Woodson's time at Indiana, he has not had consistent top-notch play from the guards.  He has apparently gotten some good ones now.  Very likely it is a huge upgrade.

Shooters/Wings:  Seems to be an upgrade.  Most likely it is a good upgrade.  Absolutely thrilled with the core IU players that stayed this year.  Mgbako, Reneau, Galloway, Cupps, Newton...

Front Line:  TJD and Ware are hard acts to follow.  Ballo was the best available in the portal.  Most likely not an upgrade on offense.  Possibly an upgrade on defense.  

Offense:  Huge upgrades overall because of the abilities of the guards to get the ball into play quickly, threaten and score from outside FROM ALL POSITIONS.  Sharing and distributing the ball better and not putting so much stress on the middle will pay huge dividends.  If they can shoot and hit from outside.  And if they can improve at the line.

Defense:  Ballo is going to be a hoot.  Our guards are more mobile.  If they try then this could be it.

Coaching:  I have no idea.  Coach has not had the distributors and outside shooters to do well.  His defenses are much better than average so I am not concerned on defense if the players jell and try.  And they will.  Offense is the question.  Coach will start by shuffling the players and getting a lot of them some game-time experience preconference.  

Will they get better throughout the year?  Yes.

Will the coaching improve:  Oh my.  If the players try...then the coach will put the best on the floor.  Is the coach an X's and O's coach?  I have no idea.  I think that he is no RMK.  He is not a Sampson.  He is not a Tom Crean.  He is not an Archie Miller.  We have not really seen him with his team.  

This team is his.  He really can't fail unless the team does really stupid stuff off court, in the locker room or there are injuries.  Does Woodson take advantage of matchups?  Does Woodson improve players and teach them?  Mostly...yes.   Does Woodson have on his staff the right tacticians?  I have no idea.  But they can certainly sell certain players that IU is the right place at the right time.  It is a wonder what $6 million NIL can buy today.  I wonder about sustaining that level of NIL year in and year out.

IU will compete for the top of the Big Ten.  IU will get into the Sweet Sixteen.  After that it is who makes the shots and plays.  I just do not know about our outside shooting...and the free throws.  

Let me look into the crystal ball.  Hmmm.....     Elite 8 here we come.  Is this pumping sunshine?  Sky is blue today.

[Juwan Moye 213]

23 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

You went from stating a sunshine pumper thinks Woody is a "great coach" to saying that posts "defending Woodson" are everywhere.

Those are two very different things.

I think there are reasons to defend him:

• immediate tourney bids with a roster that the former coach failed with,
• player retention,
• alumni financial support,
• NBA development leading to better recruiting,
• his teams don't mail it in when they are faced with mid-season adversity
• portal success beyond any expectations; even when compared with other big-money programs.

HOWEVER, I would not and will not call him a "great coach."

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase:

For the people defending Woodson, what should expectations be for the season? What is good enough where he should be our coach for the following year versus what should get him fired?

 

[IUc2016 7,121]

Don't we have a thread for next seasons expectations? Pretty sure this has been discussed a ton.

FYI - In that thread the ultimate sunshine pumper said we were going to go at least 17-3 in conference. So that is what I will go with :)

[HoosierHoopster 6,503]

4 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Archie never made the tourney. He made an NIT. No one cares about that.

No, he made the tourney the covid year, there was no question but it got cancelled with covid. 

[Henryville Hoosier 964]

22 minutes ago, Dave from Dayton said:

Looking at the players, individually.  And looking at the spots that they fill...

Point Guard:  During Woodson's time at Indiana, he has not had consistent top-notch play from the guards.  He has apparently gotten some good ones now.  Very likely it is a huge upgrade.

Shooters/Wings:  Seems to be an upgrade.  Most likely it is a good upgrade.  Absolutely thrilled with the core IU players that stayed this year.  Mgbako, Reneau, Galloway, Cupps, Newton...

Front Line:  TJD and Ware are hard acts to follow.  Ballo was the best available in the portal.  Most likely not an upgrade on offense.  Possibly an upgrade on defense.  

Offense:  Huge upgrades overall because of the abilities of the guards to get the ball into play quickly, threaten and score from outside FROM ALL POSITIONS.  Sharing and distributing the ball better and not putting so much stress on the middle will pay huge dividends.  If they can shoot and hit from outside.  And if they can improve at the line.

Defense:  Ballo is going to be a hoot.  Our guards are more mobile.  If they try then this could be it.

Coaching:  I have no idea.  Coach has not had the distributors and outside shooters to do well.  His defenses are much better than average so I am not concerned on defense if the players jell and try.  And they will.  Offense is the question.  Coach will start by shuffling the players and getting a lot of them some game-time experience preconference.  

Will they get better throughout the year?  Yes.

Will the coaching improve:  Oh my.  If the players try...then the coach will put the best on the floor.  Is the coach an X's and O's coach?  I have no idea.  I think that he is no RMK.  He is not a Sampson.  He is not a Tom Crean.  He is not an Archie Miller.  We have not really seen him with his team.  

This team is his.  He really can't fail unless the team does really stupid stuff off court, in the locker room or there are injuries.  Does Woodson take advantage of matchups?  Does Woodson improve players and teach them?  Mostly...yes.   Does Woodson have on his staff the right tacticians?  I have no idea.  But they can certainly sell certain players that IU is the right place at the right time.  It is a wonder what $6 million NIL can buy today.  I wonder about sustaining that level of NIL year in and year out.

IU will compete for the top of the Big Ten.  IU will get into the Sweet Sixteen.  After that it is who makes the shots and plays.  I just do not know about our outside shooting...and the free throws.  

Let me look into the crystal ball.  Hmmm.....     Elite 8 here we come.  Is this pumping sunshine?  Sky is blue today.

[Dave from Dayton 2,786]

7 minutes ago, Henryville Hoosier said:

This is how I felt every single time IU did something about the head coaching  position since last century until Archie Miller...I just didn't know if he could recruit.  And I took a wait and see about Woodson.  I still am waiting to see.  I mean last season...going into it without a sure thing PG...jeez.  And no shooter?  

[RaceToTheTop 24,525]

19 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Don't we have a thread for next seasons expectations? Pretty sure this has been discussed a ton.

FYI - In that thread the ultimate sunshine pumper said we were going to go at least 17-3 in conference. So that is what I will go with :)

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

[IUc2016 7,121]

1 minute ago, RaceToTheTop said:

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

twas a joke brother

[Stuhoo 77,872]

2 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

He did not say 17-3 was acceptable. He said at least 17-3 would be acceptable. So 18-2, 19-1, 0r 20-0 in conference would be good enough too.

;)

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,171]

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase:
For the people defending Woodson, what should expectations be for the season? What is good enough where he should be our coach for the following year versus what should get him fired?
 

I am not a Woodson defender. I called for his firing last season like everyone else in this thread. Having said that, he is currently our coach, and he did "win" the off-season. No one can realistically say he didn't. Having said that, with this roster he needs to finish in top 4 of 5 the newly aligned conference, and at the very least Sweet 16 in NCAA, if not further.

I will support the whole team, including CMW, next year. If CMW doesn't achieve what I said above, I will once again call for his firing.

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