IUBB @ Iowa - Thursday, 1/5/23 @ 9:00 on FS1

[Chris007 53,251]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

I'm not saying that at all. Obviously injuries will limit potential and we'll never know what the ceiling could be. Injuries are part of the game and not exclusive to IU. (you know these things)
I'm saying it's an excuse to say "we would have won the Big 1.o if <insert player name> wasn't hurt." It's become our tradition to make excuses for our program, coach, and players instead of seeing it for what it is. We played some bad basketball against some really bad teams making fundamental mistakes that get exposed that much more against Big 1.o teams and talent.
Those who saw it and posted about it were told they didn't know what they were talking about. Most of us here understand basketball, we understand when we see good basketball. When we put those crimson colored glasses on they shade us from that bad basketball. It's been there this entire season. The program deserves better than excuse making. That is my point.

I agree with the first part and understand what your saying. Not sure I agree with all of it but it makes sense now and I know what you're saying. 

[Alford Bailey 12,798]

9 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Is anyone else just kind of mentally fatigued by IU basketball? It's bad enough seeing a game like last night, being up too late, and having  a hard time sleeping afterward, but then it's plastered all over social media the next day and everywhere you go, people are talking about it. Throw in the McCaffery theatrics, his son sh*t-talking our coaches, and the meme factory is going full force as usual after an IU loss. 

 

It's almost reached a point where I prefer following the women's program, because I just don't get so invested in it. If the women's team lost at Iowa after being up 20, I'd probably just think "eh, whatever" and look up when the next game is. 

Not just IU basketball but B1G basketball as a whole. I’ve had my fill of watching football on a basketball court.

[Chris007 53,251]

13 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Is anyone else just kind of mentally fatigued by IU basketball? It's bad enough seeing a game like last night, being up too late, and having  a hard time sleeping afterward, but then it's plastered all over social media the next day and everywhere you go, people are talking about it. Throw in the McCaffery theatrics, his son sh*t-talking our coaches, and the meme factory is going full force as usual after an IU loss. 

 

It's almost reached a point where I prefer following the women's program, because I just don't get so invested in it. If the women's team lost at Iowa after being up 20, I'd probably just think "eh, whatever" and look up when the next game is. 

I hadn't felt this like others had till today. My wife called me at lunch and I started rattling off what was bothering me about the game, and I realize I'm just exhausted by it all. Here I am still talking about it. 

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

6 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Is anyone else just kind of mentally fatigued by IU basketball? It's bad enough seeing a game like last night, being up too late, and having  a hard time sleeping afterward, but then it's plastered all over social media the next day and everywhere you go, people are talking about it. Throw in the McCaffery theatrics, his son sh*t-talking our coaches, and the meme factory is going full force as usual after an IU loss. 

 

It's almost reached a point where I prefer following the women's program, because I just don't get so invested in it. If the women's team lost at Iowa after being up 20, I'd probably just think "eh, whatever" and look up when the next game is. 

No, understand where the program is in the grand scheme of things and it makes a bit more sense. Trust what you see and feel about the trends and direction of the program and not what is hyped by media and other fans.

Start here - name the unquestioned leader of this team or even a leader for that matter. Follow that with - who you walking into a fight with that you have zero doubt would have your back and you'd walk out of that fight much better off than the other dudes (hypothetically, I don't want our players fighting anyone but I do want attitudes they're not going to lose)

These questions have been unanswered for many years. This program lacks an identity and culture. This program doesn't recruit or develop leadership. Basketball skills are great but you can't have that without have the other things.

[AKHoosier 7,304]

16 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Is anyone else just kind of mentally fatigued by IU basketball? It's bad enough seeing a game like last night, being up too late, and having  a hard time sleeping afterward, but then it's plastered all over social media the next day and everywhere you go, people are talking about it. Throw in the McCaffery theatrics, his son sh*t-talking our coaches, and the meme factory is going full force as usual after an IU loss. 

 

It's almost reached a point where I prefer following the women's program, because I just don't get so invested in it. If the women's team lost at Iowa after being up 20, I'd probably just think "eh, whatever" and look up when the next game is. 

Yes, because I can already tell how the season will play out. Actually playing the games seems like a formality. 

Win almost all of our home games, and lose all but 1 of our road games. Bubble team. First round tournament exit.

Bookmark this if you wish.

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

6 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I agree with the first part and understand what your saying. Not sure I agree with all of it but it makes sense now and I know what you're saying. 

We were without X and Race went down with an injury. Iowa was without a few rotational players too. We had them on the ropes early in that game and then melted down the stretch. They fought back and overcame early mistakes and poor play. We can find an excuse for every loss but that manifests a losing culture where excuses are acceptable.

I didn't listen to the postgame presser from Woody. I hope you doesn't mention anything about Fran acting a fool and that being a reason we lost or Race going down and that being an excuse. I hope he focuses on being **** rebounding the damn ball, not guarding, missing free throws, and tossing the ball around the gym. It's much easier being too hard on players and backing off a bit than being the cool new coach and then tightening the screws on them.

It took how long to address rebounding this season? It seemed we were focused in early with this but then reverted back to old ways after Race went down. It's easy to excuse it with an injury but that doesn't do **** for the players. A rebound bounced around the FT line and we had how many players just watching it? When has that been acceptable for IU basketball? Did they expect Race to limp over onto the course with his crutches to get that rebound for them? We are better than that.

[JSHoosier 21,486]

8 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

No, understand where the program is in the grand scheme of things and it makes a bit more sense. Trust what you see and feel about the trends and direction of the program and not what is hyped by media and other fans.

Start here - name the unquestioned leader of this team or even a leader for that matter. Follow that with - who you walking into a fight with that you have zero doubt would have your back and you'd walk out of that fight much better off than the other dudes (hypothetically, I don't want our players fighting anyone but I do want attitudes they're not going to lose)

These questions have been unanswered for many years. This program lacks an identity and culture. This program doesn't recruit or develop leadership. Basketball skills are great but you can't have that without have the other things.

Are they unanswered?  Or are the answers "no one"?

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

Just now, JSHoosier said:

Are they unanswered?  Or are the answers "no one"?

Touche

[JSHoosier 21,486]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

Touche

I think the answers are "no one".  The fact the same issues constantly rear their ugly head and cause loss after loss with no changes makes me think there's no real leadership.

[Chris007 53,251]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

We were without X and Race went down with an injury. Iowa was without a few rotational players too. We had them on the ropes early in that game and then melted down the stretch. They fought back and overcame early mistakes and poor play. We can find an excuse for every loss but that manifests a losing culture where excuses are acceptable.

I didn't listen to the postgame presser from Woody. I hope you doesn't mention anything about Fran acting a fool and that being a reason we lost or Race going down and that being an excuse. I hope he focuses on being **** rebounding the damn ball, not guarding, missing free throws, and tossing the ball around the gym. It's much easier being too hard on players and backing off a bit than being the cool new coach and then tightening the screws on them.

It took how long to address rebounding this season? It seemed we were focused in early with this but then reverted back to old ways after Race went down. It's easy to excuse it with an injury but that doesn't do **** for the players. A rebound bounced around the FT line and we had how many players just watching it? When has that been acceptable for IU basketball? Did they expect Race to limp over onto the course with his crutches to get that rebound for them? We are better than that.

Again I understand what your saying. I watched the press conference and I heard him say defense, rebounding, and FTs were the difference in the game. My eye tells me that if Race doesn't get hurt we win that game by 10 points. I totally agree on the rebound and no one going after it. I do think we're better than that. As I've said we've seen what some of these guys can do for a couple of years now, let's give some younger guys a shot. I don't think playing hard has been a major problem this season. Has it at times? YES. 

[Chris007 53,251]

16 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

No, understand where the program is in the grand scheme of things and it makes a bit more sense. Trust what you see and feel about the trends and direction of the program and not what is hyped by media and other fans.

Start here - name the unquestioned leader of this team or even a leader for that matter. Follow that with - who you walking into a fight with that you have zero doubt would have your back and you'd walk out of that fight much better off than the other dudes (hypothetically, I don't want our players fighting anyone but I do want attitudes they're not going to lose)

These questions have been unanswered for many years. This program lacks an identity and culture. This program doesn't recruit or develop leadership. Basketball skills are great but you can't have that without have the other things.

This is just my opinion but I have looked at JHS as the leader of this team this year. Would I walk into a fight with him? Yes I would. What do I win?

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

This is just my opinion but I have looked at JHS as the leader of this team this year. Would I walk into a fight with him? Yes I would. What do I win?

It's all opinions. Interesting, would like to know what you are basing this on. He definitely contributed last night.
A conference road game against a bottom feeder most likely.

[Chris007 53,251]

Just now, HoosierAloha said:

It's all opinions. Interesting, would like to know what you are basing this on. He definitely contributed last night.
A conference road game against a bottom feeder most likely.

I base this on my criteria for a leader. While coaching I always wanted my point guard to be the leader. To tell people what to do, when to do it, and get on them if they are doing it wrong. 

He was a winner in high school and not on just any high school team. He was the leader of that team. He was known as a starter from day 1 here. He was one of two point guards and we both know X wasn't a leader. He is looked up to by the rest of the team. He gets on other players when not doing what they're supposed to do. He leads by example by scoring, defending, and making others better.

Now a good leader but have everyone believe in them. I don't think he's there yet. But I do think he will get there. I think we will see that for the rest of the season and all of next season. 

I have enjoyed reading what you have to say today, and the whole season. You make people think which is never a bad thing. 

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

12 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Again I understand what your saying. I watched the press conference and I heard him say defense, rebounding, and FTs were the difference in the game. My eye tells me that if Race doesn't get hurt we win that game by 10 points. I totally agree on the rebound and no one going after it. I do think we're better than that. As I've said we've seen what some of these guys can do for a couple of years now, let's give some younger guys a shot. I don't think playing hard has been a major problem this season. Has it at times? YES. 

I feel like we would have won that game with Race last night. A few things with that though, we've seen this team curl up in a ball with Race on the court this season. Not saying that happens last night but there is a non-zero chance of that happening.

Major problem? No. At time? YES. That is unacceptable for a team who started the year with how many senior+ players? If a young player is going half speed to take a **** the older players should be calling them out before coaches even have to think about it. I don't get that vibe from this team. I did see TJD lip "Come on, bro" multiple times last night. Would love to see a senior Yogi and freshman Bryant barking at each other for mistakes on the court because they're both ultra competitive. That doesn't seem like it's in the cards for these players.

[Chris007 53,251]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

I feel like we would have won that game with Race last night. A few things with that though, we've seen this team curl up in a ball with Race on the court this season. Not saying that happens last night but there is a non-zero chance of that happening.

Major problem? No. At time? YES. That is unacceptable for a team who started the year with how many senior+ players? If a young player is going half speed to take a **** the older players should be calling them out before coaches even have to think about it. I don't get that vibe from this team. I did see TJD lip "Come on, bro" multiple times last night. Would love to see a senior Yogi and freshman Bryant barking at each other for mistakes on the court because they're both ultra competitive. That doesn't seem like it's in the cards for these players.

I just don't see any of our older players being leaders. It's just not in their DNA. TJD tries to be that guy in his own little way but he still has trouble acknowledging his own mistakes. It's always the refs fault or the coach's or someone else. That's why we need to recruit leaders or let the younger kids step up. 

[Aaron 4,359]

Multiple thoughts after last night:

1. Woodson did not inherit this culture but has been unable to fix it so far. At the moment Teri Moren, Todd Yeagley, and Ray Looze are only coaches at IU that have created winning cultures and as a result they can and do win through any injuries or adversities. Woodson so far has done nothing to change a downtrodden culture in the men's basketball program even though he did not create it.

2. If Woodson's MO is defense he needs to make sure that is always strong. If this is his fundamental belief the team cannot be regressing defensively at it if he want to be the coach here long term. Just ask Chris Ballard who has drafted relatively strong but his fundamental belief is offensive line which has turned into a huge failure. I don't care how much other areas improve while Woodson is coach. If the D is not elite under him, this program will not succeed during his tenure and he will be out in a couple yrs if his fundamental belief (defense) collapses.  

3. IU athletic department as a whole needs to stop feeding into the hype and promoting winning before it happens. Whether it be football in 2021 or basketball this year, IU athletics as a whole was more than willing to embrace the preseason hype. The department needs to back off and do a lot more under promising and over delivering. Just ask the Pacers this year. Right now Dolson and his staff are doing way to much feeding into the hype and it needs to stop.

4. Speaking of Dolson I have a nagging feeling he might go down as the worst hire since Michael McNeely was athletic director. He didn't hire Tom Allen but the extension was beyond a problem and Woodson could flop big time. At moment the two main sports (football and men's basketball) have not been in this bad of a shape since the Dinardo/Davis Era in early 2000's and Dolson created it. The sports his predecessors made strong are still strong, but he is tanking the two biggest ones with decisions which while not indefensible are certainly backfiring at the moment.       

5. Sometimes things look darkest before the light comes on and sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. I hope it is the former but very much fear it is the latter. If that is the case, the sports just a tier below football and basketball will continue to thrive but the two most important ones will struggle. That is very much happening at Nebraska currently (albeit which ones are thriving is slightly different) and IU is unfortunately in that boat at the moment it looks like. 

[Stuhoo 85,110]

8 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Multiple thoughts after last night:

1. Woodson did not inherit this culture but has been unable to fix it so far. At the moment Teri Moren, Todd Yeagley, and Ray Looze are only coaches at IU that have created winning cultures and as a result they can and do win through any injuries or adversities. Woodson so far has done nothing to change a downtrodden culture in the men's basketball program even though he did not create it.

2. If Woodson's MO is defense he needs to make sure that is always strong. If this is his fundamental belief the team cannot be regressing defensively as it if he want to be the coach here long term. Just ask Chris Ballard who has drafted relatively strong but his fundamental belief is offensive line which has turned into a huge failure. I don't care how much other areas improve while Woodson is coach. If the D is not elite under him, this program will not succeed during his tenure and he will be out in a couple yrs if his fundamental belief (defense) collapses.  

3. IU athletic department as a whole needs to stop feeding into the hype and promoting winning before it happens. Whether it be football in 2021 or basketball this year, IU athletics as a whole was more than willing to embrace the preseason hype. The department needs to back off and do a lot more under promising and over delivering. Just ask the Pacers this year. Right now Dolson and his staff are doing way to much feeding into the hype and it needs to stop.

4. Speaking of Dolson I have a nagging feeling he might go down as the worst hire since Michael McNeely was athletic director. He didn't hire Tom Allen but the extension was beyond a problem and Woodson could flop big time. At moment the two main sports (football and men's basketball) have not been in this bad of a shape since the Dinardo/Davis Era in early 2000's and Dolson created it. The sports his predecessors made strong are still strong, but he is tanking the two biggest ones with decisions which while not indefensible are certainly backfiring at the moment.       

5. Sometimes things look darkest before the light comes on and sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. I hope it is the former but very much fear it is the latter. If that is the case, the sports just a tier below football and basketball will continue to thrive but the two most important ones will struggle. That is very much happening at Nebraska currently (albeit which ones are thriving is slightly different) and IU is unfortunately in that boat at the moment it looks like. 

 

For me?

Your points 1, 2, and 3 are incredibly spot-on and well-stated.

 

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

I base this on my criteria for a leader. While coaching I always wanted my point guard to be the leader. To tell people what to do, when to do it, and get on them if they are doing it wrong. 

He was a winner in high school and not on just any high school team. He was the leader of that team. He was known as a starter from day 1 here. He was one of two point guards and we both know X wasn't a leader. He is looked up to by the rest of the team. He gets on other players when not doing what they're supposed to do. He leads by example by scoring, defending, and making others better.

Now a good leader but have everyone believe in them. I don't think he's there yet. But I do think he will get there. I think we will see that for the rest of the season and all of next season. 

I have enjoyed reading what you have to say today, and the whole season. You make people think which is never a bad thing. 

Agree with wanting your point to be the leader. It makes sense in many ways - how they see the floor, responsible for running plays, etc.

I do believe JHS can be that but I don't think he's close to where we need him to be (as a leader). That's not a knock on him or where he is but more about where we are as a program and the environment he came into (older players not really leading but being there, players who are just kind of there, etc.).

I disagree about XJ. He's not a finished product either but would prefer his mentality to other older players. He needs to be more consistent but he definitely played more fire and that dawg mentality than any others. It's not a coincidence that we started playing well at Xavier and against UNC when he picked his game up and others followed. You can add in the way he started playing at the end of last season that carried us into an invite too.

If I were the coach taking over the program I would have XJ (probably TJD too) by my side for most of last summer showing and explaining what is and isn't acceptable in my new program. Any less than that in practice/games would have gone directly at XJ and whoever was messing up until XJ realized he'd pay the price for the team not meeting expectations. I believe XJ has what it takes to lift those around him.

Glad I make you think. I enjoy the back and forth on here. I would guess most see similar things with the team but don't want to admit or are in denial about it. From my perspective and experience, letting things just be without questioning is a good way to get people injured or worse. If you weren't calling others out or pushing others to think/act you were useless to the team and could easily be replaced. I understand this isn't the stance for everyone on here but I'll push and call others out just the same as I expect to be called out and pushed in my thinking.

[pumpfake 4,105]

58 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

No, understand where the program is in the grand scheme of things and it makes a bit more sense. Trust what you see and feel about the trends and direction of the program and not what is hyped by media and other fans.

Start here - name the unquestioned leader of this team or even a leader for that matter. Follow that with - who you walking into a fight with that you have zero doubt would have your back and you'd walk out of that fight much better off than the other dudes (hypothetically, I don't want our players fighting anyone but I do want attitudes they're not going to lose)

These questions have been unanswered for many years. This program lacks an identity and culture. This program doesn't recruit or develop leadership. Basketball skills are great but you can't have that without have the other things.

Leadership - largely missing.  No "go to guy" that is Mr. Clutch.

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

16 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I just don't see any of our older players being leaders. It's just not in their DNA. TJD tries to be that guy in his own little way but he still has trouble acknowledging his own mistakes. It's always the refs fault or the coach's or someone else. That's why we need to recruit leaders or let the younger kids step up. 

I don't know TJD personally and I'm sure he's a good young man. I'm happy he's at IU and what he has done. Statistically, he'll be one of the greats at IU and that takes skill. With that, he wants to be liked. He wants to be one of guys. He's not a natural leader and he's never been forced to really lead. Leading sucks in many ways, you have to hold yourself to the highest of standards and then have to get on your closest friends to do better. It's not easy and not always fun. It can go horribly wrong. Some people have it, some people don't, and others need to be forced. I wish he would have leadership around him and would have been mentored to lead.