2021/2022 Men’s Basketball Season

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

30 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Disagree completely. We’ve seen what Rob can offer for 3+ years now. It’s not much. He’s been a below average player on a below average team. The ‘eye test’ also shows the offense completely crater with him on the court. But whatever. When Lander transfers after a completely underwhelming season from RP I won’t be happy. 

BTW. referring to Lander as a five star is as meaningful as saying that Ryan Leaf was a good quarterback because he was the second draft pick.  

[Hoosierfan2017 23,253]

17 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

Except people wanting Phin to play aren’t saying that because they think Rob is good.  It’s a statement about how bad Lander is.  If you can’t see how much Lander gets targeted on defense, I don’t know what to say…..not to mention how often he turns it over (not even going into the times not recorded as turnovers when he simply doesn’t run the right play.

He gets targeted so much on defense yet the team’s defensive rating is better with him on the floor than with Phinisee on the court. Why? If IU can put out a great defense with Lander on the court then that diminishes the need for Phinisee. Lander has only turned the ball over four more times than Rob this year and that’s with lander being aggressive on offense instead of pounding the air out of the ball for 20 seconds every possession. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,627]

21 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

BTW. referring to Lander as a five star is as meaningful as saying that Ryan Leaf was a good quarterback because he was the second draft pick.  

Think you went a bit far here. Lander was a top rated point guard in his class for very well demonstrated reasons. Heck you can just pull up Rabjohns' recent tweet about how Lander's excellent play (at the time) was what he (Rabjohns) saw in Lander for years while he was demonstrating outstanding point guard ability.

All discussion above is fair. Lander continues to have weaknesses in his game, and I for one do trust this very experienced staff to play the player who has earned his floor time. However, it's really unfair to Lander to cross-compare him to Leaf. Lander has exceptional talent. He absolutely earned his ranking (to the extent rankings matter). But who plays between him and Rob and when will continue to be the the coaching staff's call and fair discussion.

[cthomas 6,549]

7 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Think you went a bit far here. Lander was a top rated point guard in his class for very well demonstrated reasons. Heck you can just pull up Rabjohns' recent tweet about how Lander's excellent play (at the time) was what he (Rabjohns) saw in Lander for years while he was demonstrating outstanding point guard ability.

All discussion above is fair. Lander continues to have weaknesses in his game, and I for one do trust this very experienced staff to play the player who has earned his floor time. However, it's really unfair to Lander to cross-compare him to Leaf. Lander has exceptional talent. He absolutely earned his ranking (to the extent rankings matter). But who plays between him and Rob and when will continue to be the the coaching staff's call and fair discussion.

I questioned whether or not Lander would make at IU. His game has grown in my opinion. He's not where he needs to be yet, but he seems coachable and humble enough to work on what he needs to. My respect for him has grown considerably this year.

[HoosierHoopster 7,627]

10 minutes ago, cthomas said:

I questioned whether or not Lander would make at IU. His game has grown in my opinion. He's not where he needs to be yet, but he seems coachable and humble enough to work on what he needs to. My respect for him has grown considerably this year.

I do think his game has grown this season and he’s showing steady improvement. He isn’t lost on either end (was last season), he’s finding guys better, his shot looks better, he’s clearly stronger. But also think he hasn’t yet had the college game slow down for him, he plays so fast he has missed things because of it like in OT last game — then you have Woody give the nod to Rob noting his experience— Lander basically got 0 experience because of Cam and so that shouldn’t be surprising—

but I do want to see Lander getting game experience, his upside is seriously high, and if / when ge gets there we’ll all be very happy

[rayl456 679]

St. John's trying hard to catch Kansas in the second half.  Got down to 3, but now Kansas back up by 8...69-61...9:32 to play.  Kansas goes on a 16-2 run over the last 5 minutes.

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

12 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

He gets targeted so much on defense yet the team’s defensive rating is better with him on the floor than with Phinisee on the court. Why? If IU can put out a great defense with Lander on the court then that diminishes the need for Phinisee. Lander has only turned the ball over four more times than Rob this year and that’s with lander being aggressive on offense instead of pounding the air out of the ball for 20 seconds every possession. 

Almost all of Lander’s minutes early on were at the end of games in blowouts against bad teams against team’s backups, so you’ll have to forgive me if I take the team defensive rating with a grain of salt.  And that’s 4 more turnovers in only 72 minutes….in essence, if he were a starter he would be averaging 1.5 turnovers more — or about 4.5 turnovers total — in 30 minutes of play.  That is horrible.

 

 

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

12 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Think you went a bit far here. Lander was a top rated point guard in his class for very well demonstrated reasons. Heck you can just pull up Rabjohns' recent tweet about how Lander's excellent play (at the time) was what he (Rabjohns) saw in Lander for years while he was demonstrating outstanding point guard ability.

All discussion above is fair. Lander continues to have weaknesses in his game, and I for one do trust this very experienced staff to play the player who has earned his floor time. However, it's really unfair to Lander to cross-compare him to Leaf. Lander has exceptional talent. He absolutely earned his ranking (to the extent rankings matter). But who plays between him and Rob and when will continue to be the the coaching staff's call and fair discussion.

The Leaf line wasn’t a comparison.  It was a statement about saying that a player shouldn’t be playing just because of his rating.  If that were the case , Oladipo wouldn’t have seen the court that much.
 

Best line from the movie Moneyball:

”If he’s a good hitter, why doesn’t he hit good?”

How many coaching staffs have to play the very flawed Phinisee over Lander before people actually believe that the actual talent and ceiling for Lander is simply not as good as advertised?

[Hoosierfan2017 23,253]

56 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

Almost all of Lander’s minutes early on were at the end of games in blowouts against bad teams against team’s backups, so you’ll have to forgive me if I take the team defensive rating with a grain of salt.  And that’s 4 more turnovers in only 72 minutes….in essence, if he were a starter he would be averaging 1.5 turnovers more — or about 4.5 turnovers total — in 30 minutes of play.  That is horrible.

 

 

They both had a defensive rating of 107 against St. John’s. The difference is that Rob had an offensive rating of 22 while Lander had an offensive rating or 123. Rob makes freshman mistakes as a senior and he gets to keep playing. Lander makes freshman mistakes and he gets parked on the bench. Can’t wait to watch Rob crater our offense this season. But don’t worry, he has experience! 

[HoosierHoopster 7,627]

37 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

The Leaf line wasn’t a comparison.  It was a statement about saying that a player shouldn’t be playing just because of his rating.  If that were the case , Oladipo wouldn’t have seen the court that much.
 

Best line from the movie Moneyball:

”If he’s a good hitter, why doesn’t he hit good?”

How many coaching staffs have to play the very flawed Phinisee over Lander before people actually believe that the actual talent and ceiling for Lander is simply not as good as advertised?

Preface - really like your posting and often agree with you.

here, I buy in half way. I understand the statement, and agree - rankings mean only so much.

But then a top ranked player, as Lander was, achieved that ranking on demonstrated talent to multiple scouts over an extended period. And the question about coaches? Lander came in as a 17 year old, skinny high school senior, and the first and only coach before this season was that offensive genius, Cam. And now Lander has been starting to get more minutes - under Woodson, and he had clearly played better, while not being fully there,

and he’s made mistakes, mistakes that show a lack of experience, which is what Woodson referred to in giving Rob the nod. It’s just not accurate or fair to say that shows Lander isn’t good.Talent and ceiling? They’re there, really think that’s obvious. Decision making and judgment? Not yet

[Demo 21,772]

23 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

They both had a defensive rating of 107 against St. John’s. 

Putting the rest of this ongoing argument aside since it’s circular and unproductive, gotta say this: if this is a statistical analysis that purports to rate their individual defensive performances and it reached this conclusion, the model needs to reviewed. That’s just comically wrong. 

[Hoosierfan2017 23,253]

5 minutes ago, Demo said:

Putting the rest of this ongoing argument aside since it’s circular and unproductive, gotta say this: if this is a statistical analysis that purports to rate their individual defensive performances and it reached this conclusion, the model needs to reviewed. That’s just comically wrong. 

It doesn’t rate their individual defensive performances. It’s the team’s defensive performance with them on the court. Same with the offensive rating. 

[Stuhoo 85,460]

25 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

It doesn’t rate their individual defensive performances. It’s the team’s defensive performance with them on the court. Same with the offensive rating. 

So it’s highly dependent on which opponents their minutes were against. 

[Hoosierfan2017 23,253]

25 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

So it’s highly dependent on which opponents their minutes were against. 

It’s dependent on a number of factors, including opponents. 57% of Rob’s minutes were against EMU and Northern Illinois, two MAC schools that are both 2-5 this year. Just because we struggled against EMU doesn’t make them any less cupcake-y. Rob had an ORtg of 59 and a DRtg of 92 against EMU. He played 26 minutes and was 3-11 from the field. He was a big reason for our struggles against a bad team. 

I don’t know if they have individual defensive  analytics for college players. If they do, I can’t find them. DRtg isn’t perfect, and it depends on a lot of factors. But it’s good at showing team defense. IU is 26th in the country right now, which lines up with what we’ve seen from our defense. At this point in the season, the team defensive product hasn’t been any better with Rob on the court than with Lander on the court.

It’s not really disputable that Rob makes the offense worse when he’s playing. He clearly does. If you’re sacrificing offense from the guard spot because you want his defense, you really need him to elevate the team’s defense. If you can get the same defensive performance from your team with or without him, why are you sacrificing your offense to play a guy?

That’s the question no one has answered. It’s just said that Phinisee plays because his defense is better (which is true on an individual level) despite the team’s defense being better without Rob, and also without Rob but with Lander. 

[Stromboli 6,123]

I think we’ve all stated our viewpoints here. Repeating them won’t make them any more or less accurate. Please move on and contribute new thoughts.

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

Has anyone else noticed players directing Lander when he’s on the court? I have noticed Race saying and pointing when they were bringing the ball up.


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[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Preface - really like your posting and often agree with you.

here, I buy in half way. I understand the statement, and agree - rankings mean only so much.

But then a top ranked player, as Lander was, achieved that ranking on demonstrated talent to multiple scouts over an extended period. And the question about coaches? Lander came in as a 17 year old, skinny high school senior, and the first and only coach before this season was that offensive genius, Cam. And now Lander has been starting to get more minutes - under Woodson, and he had clearly played better, while not being fully there,

and he’s made mistakes, mistakes that show a lack of experience, which is what Woodson referred to in giving Rob the nod. It’s just not accurate or fair to say that shows Lander isn’t good.Talent and ceiling? They’re there, really think that’s obvious. Decision making and judgment? Not yet

I understand that part of the issue was Lander coming in at 17.  But I also think people are attempting to see a ceiling that isn’t there because of his ranking.  The ranking blinds people to what they are seeing before their own eyes.  
 

I don’t understand the narrative that Lander has such a high ceiling and talent that now two coaches don’t think he is deserving of court time.  And we know Woodson relies on his assistants for their opinions as well.  Lander wasn’t showing enough in practice to get on the court against BC Mega, now we think he’s going to help in Big Ten games?

and if it were only about experience, Tamar Bates wouldn’t be seeing the court.  

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

36 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Has anyone else noticed players directing Lander when he’s on the court? I have noticed Race saying and pointing when they were bringing the ball up.


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Yes.  It’s something I’ve been saying — Lander isn’t executing the plays that are being called.  

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

49 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

I think we’ve all stated our viewpoints here. Repeating them won’t make them any more or less accurate. Please move on and contribute new thoughts.

If that’s the prevailing thought, I have no problem moving on.  I don’t think, though, that there has been anything posted like personal attacks on it.  I disagree with Hoosierfan but I think our posts have been civil.  If the topic of KL v RP should be in its own thread to avoid cluttering the main one, then I can discuss it elsewhere.

[RaceToTheTop 28,405]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

So it’s highly dependent on which opponents their minutes were against. 

I do apologize for the number on f consecutive posts (I am on a long car trip right now and am bored), but defensive metrics are still much in their infancy.  The two true defensive measurable stats — blocks and steals — aren’t the best measures ( guys who gamble on passing lanes will get more steals).  Points scored against when a player is on the court are subject to small sample size/game situation/inability to measure an individual player’s actual contribution.  Are there stats that would be better measures (ie, players ability to deny passes, etc)?  Probably yes, but simply put they are not widely available.