Archie. Miller. Fired.

[Whoozhers]

As long as we don't go full Steinbrenner and give someone the Billy Martin treatment.

Different sport.


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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

Just two more games with this coach.  I'm planning a party
 

I hope you are right

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[LamarCheeks]

Sorry, long post ahead ...

Seems as if I remember @Chris007 writing that people around the athletic department liked Archie well enough. They though he was good guy for the most part -- as opposed to Crean, who apparently could be an arrogant pr--k.

So why is there this huge disconnect with the players?

In four seasons, he just never seemed to be on the same page with them. I also read from a poster here who wrote that they knew someone who worked with Rob and Armaan. The guy said they were good kids and worked hard, but they didn't care for Archie. I have a hard time believing he went through six seasons at Dayton with a contentious relationship with his players. So what was the problem at IU? Justin Smith seemed to be a cancer, but on the surface, he's working out OK at Arkansas. 

We've had some pretty big recruiting misses over the past couple years, too. I can't help but feel like the recruits maybe got a bad vibe from the current players on the current atmosphere. There obviously is something wrong with TJD -- even prior to last night's hissy fit, he just seemed very disengaged at times. I don't recall that happening last year. And when we were struggling two years ago, he posted on Twitter that he had no plans to alter his commitment to IU. After last season, he said he was 100 percent on board with coming back for his sophomore year. 

So ... what went wrong? 

I honestly thought four years ago, we hired the right guy. He played the game -- unlike CTC -- was a coach's son, was a basketball junkie and had a good record at Dayton (yes, I realize that's a mid-major -- but I didn't see any reason that wouldn't translate to a P5 school). Plus, had we not hired him, Ohio State probably would have. 

He's obviously not the right fit at IU, but I don't buy that it has anything to do with him having to press the flesh or speaking to alumni or those outside things that he might not have had to do at an Ohio State. What does the product on the floor have to do with any of that? And the product on the floor -- well, it hasn't been good. At times, it's been brilliant -- but when you have one brilliant game followed by four bad games, that doesn't cut it. And that's pretty much been the story of his tenure. 

My pop passed away four years ago in May. He was a Purdue guy, but was a former high school coach and AD, so there was never a lack of opportunity to talk hoops at family gatherings -- though most of my family is Toiletmakers, too --  or with my dad's friends. I was home for a week for the funeral, etc., and talked some hoops with the aforementioned groups. This was a couple months after we hired Archie. Not one person thought it was a bad move. In fact, some of my Purdue relatives were even worried about what we'd accomplish with Archie at the helm ... Man, I never in a million years would've expected these past four years to have turned out to be so absolutely mediocre. 

[Chris007]

3 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Sorry, long post ahead ...

Seems as if I remember @Chris007 writing that people around the athletic department liked Archie well enough. They though he was good guy for the most part -- as opposed to Crean, who apparently could be an arrogant pr--k.

So why is there this huge disconnect with the players?

In four seasons, he just never seemed to be on the same page with them. I also read from a poster here who wrote that they knew someone who worked with Rob and Armaan. The guy said they were good kids and worked hard, but they didn't care for Archie. I have a hard time believing he went through six seasons at Dayton with a contentious relationship with his players. So what was the problem at IU? Justin Smith seemed to be a cancer, but on the surface, he's working out OK at Arkansas. 

We've had some pretty big recruiting misses over the past couple years, too. I can't help but feel like the recruits maybe got a bad vibe from the current players on the current atmosphere. There obviously is something wrong with TJD -- even prior to last night's hissy fit, he just seemed very disengaged at times. I don't recall that happening last year. And when we were struggling two years ago, he posted on Twitter that he had no plans to alter his commitment to IU, and after last season, he said he was 100 percent on board with coming back for his sophomore year. 

So ... what went wrong? 

I honestly thought four years ago, we hired the right guy. He played the game -- unlike CTC -- was a coach's son, was a basketball junkie and had a good record at Dayton (yes, I realize that's a mid-major -- but I didn't see any reason that wouldn't translate to a P5 school). Plus, had we not hired him, Ohio State probably would have. 

He's obviously not the right fit at IU, but I don't buy that it has anything to do with him having to press the flesh or speaking to alumni or those outside things that he might not have had to do at an Ohio State. What does the product on the floor have to do with any of that? And the product on the floor -- well, it hasn't been good. At times, it's been brilliant -- but when you have one brilliant game followed by four bad games, that doesn't cut it. And that's pretty much been the story of his tenure. 

My pop passed away four years ago in May. He was a Purdue guy, but was a former high school coach and AD, so there was never a lack of opportunity to talk hoops at family gatherings (though they're mostly Toiletmakers, too) or with my dad's friends. I was home for a week for the funeral, etc., and talked hoops with family members and my dad's friends. This was a couple months after we hired Archie. Not one person thought it was a bad move. Some of my Purdue relatives were even worried ... Man, I never in a million years would've expected these past four years to have turned out to be so absolutely mediocre. 

Justin was an a-hole last year, he showed up late to everything, refused to workout on his own, refused to get up shots with teammates. But then we played him the whole time. I also think Rob's problems this year have been from the coaches. I like Archie a lot, thought it was a home run, but instead it was an 0-4 with 4 K's kind of like some of your Cubs :-). Sorry to hear about your dad, mine passed 8 years ago, still feels like yesterday.

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

Justin was an a-hole last year, he showed up late to everything, refused to workout on his own, refused to get up shots with teammates. But then we played him the whole time. I also think Rob's problems this year have been from the coaches. I like Archie a lot, thought it was a home run, but instead it was an 0-4 with 4 K's kind of like some of your Cubs :-). Sorry to hear about your dad, mine passed 8 years ago, still feels like yesterday.

Mine died 34 years ago. Still hurts to this day.

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[Golfman25]

9 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Justin was an a-hole last year, he showed up late to everything, refused to workout on his own, refused to get up shots with teammates. But then we played him the whole time. I also think Rob's problems this year have been from the coaches. I like Archie a lot, thought it was a home run, but instead it was an 0-4 with 4 K's kind of like some of your Cubs :-). Sorry to hear about your dad, mine passed 8 years ago, still feels like yesterday.

Well there it is.  I have a saying -- You can't fool the kids.  At every level, they know who should start, who should play, and who works hard.  If what you say about Justin's conduct is true (and I have no reason not to believe it), then Justin should have been relegated to the bench behind the last walk on.  You send the message, even if it is your best player (and Justin was not) you're not going to take any BS. If you put up with it, this is what you get.  It ain't pretty.  

[Chris007]

Just now, Golfman25 said:

Well there it is.  I have a saying -- You can't fool the kids.  At every level, they know who should start, who should play, and who works hard.  If what you say about Justin's conduct is true (and I have no reason not to believe it), then Justin should have been relegated to the bench behind the last walk on.  You send the message, even if it is your best player (and Justin was not) you're not going to take any BS. If you put up with it, this is what you get.  It ain't pretty.  

Finally we agree on something :-). Once you lose the players respect and trust, your not getting it back. 

[Uspshoosier]

On TJD these fits are nothing new.   I watched his whole high school career and if any of you remember my concerns with him were his body language at times and he also had a tendency to show up his teammates when things were going bad.   When things went smooth it was great but the minute things went south it went south.    Last year was a huge jump in this area because it seemed like he matured and learned from high school mistakes.  Clearly he went back to some old habits this year which is unfortunate to see.    

[DChoosier]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

Justin was an a-hole last year, he showed up late to everything, refused to workout on his own, refused to get up shots with teammates. But then we played him the whole time. I also think Rob's problems this year have been from the coaches. I like Archie a lot, thought it was a home run, but instead it was an 0-4 with 4 K's kind of like some of your Cubs :-). Sorry to hear about your dad, mine passed 8 years ago, still feels like yesterday.

That’s good info.

In the back of my mind I always questioned wether  Smith (and Green) caused internal problems simply because Archie continued to give each of them big minutes. I thought “tough guy/no nonsense  Archie”...lol in restrospect, would reduce  minutes,take away starting roles and/or recruit over them with transfers (we pretty much always had open slots) if they were that big of a problem. I was done with him quite a while ago but this really seals the deal. You just can’t reward that type of behavior and “letting it slide” kills the ability to create the type of culture we thought/hoped he would develop.

[Josh]

41 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

On TJD these fits are nothing new.   I watched his whole high school career and if any of you remember my concerns with him were his body language at times and he also had a tendency to show up his teammates when things were going bad.   When things went smooth it was great but the minute things went south it went south.    Last year was a huge jump in this area because it seemed like he matured and learned from high school mistakes.  Clearly he went back to some old habits this year which is unfortunate to see.    

You also had concerns about shooting from mid range and further.  Spot on.

[Uspshoosier]

10 minutes ago, Josh said:

You also had concerns about shooting from mid range and further.  Spot on.

Yeah because since his sophomore year they would say we are working on that part of the game in the off season.   Season rolls around and still going left and shooting at the rim.   Ask about it and they would say well the team needs me to do this so no reason to shoot them. We are winning.   Junior year same and so on.   

he dropped in the rankings that  last year because the weaknesses he had in his game as a sophomore were the same as they were as a senior.  Now the things he is good at he is great at. 
 
also the attitude on the court in the bad cases do not tell the story of the great young man he is.    He made time for the little kids before and after games and was super nice to my young kids when they interacted.   He took time out of his day to run the score board for the youth league.  Not sure many top 30 kids do that. 

[Uspshoosier]

Just a n idol thought for Hoosier fans to think about / yes @IndianaMBB has not been part of @marchmadness  since 2016 . A tidbit for IU lovers @TomCrean had taken Indiana to the @NCAA tourney 4 of 5 years from 2011-12 to 2015-16

Vitale from the top rope.  Lol.    You know he has been waiting 4 years to tweet this.  Got to defend his guy 

[IUc2016]

4 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Just a n idol thought for Hoosier fans to think about / yes @IndianaMBB has not been part of @marchmadness  since 2016 . A tidbit for IU lovers @TomCrean had taken Indiana to the @NCAA tourney 4 of 5 years from 2011-12 to 2015-16

Vitale from the top rope.  Lol.    You know he has been waiting 4 years to tweet this.  Got to defend his guy 

lol he is something else. Did he  forget that Crean missed in 16-17? He wasn't fired after the 15-16 season. 

 

[MoyeNeeded]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

You also had concerns about shooting from mid range and further.  Spot on.

I think he is more comfortable playing with Brunk.

[Hoosier Guy]

3 hours ago, Chris007 said:

Justin was an a-hole last year, he showed up late to everything, refused to workout on his own, refused to get up shots with teammates. But then we played him the whole time. I also think Rob's problems this year have been from the coaches. I like Archie a lot, thought it was a home run, but instead it was an 0-4 with 4 K's kind of like some of your Cubs :-). Sorry to hear about your dad, mine passed 8 years ago, still feels like yesterday.

I think most of us had a hunch that it was Smith. It’s on Archie that it happened constantly though. Why did he not send a message about that type of behavior? It now makes complete sense why he doesn’t get the respect of his players. A coach can’t coddle a certain player while being strict with the others. That’s not how it works. Archie made his own bed with that situation

[OldBuddy67]

3 hours ago, LamarCheeks said:

Sorry, long post ahead ...

Seems as if I remember @Chris007 writing that people around the athletic department liked Archie well enough. They though he was good guy for the most part -- as opposed to Crean, who apparently could be an arrogant pr--k.

So why is there this huge disconnect with the players?

In four seasons, he just never seemed to be on the same page with them. I also read from a poster here who wrote that they knew someone who worked with Rob and Armaan. The guy said they were good kids and worked hard, but they didn't care for Archie. I have a hard time believing he went through six seasons at Dayton with a contentious relationship with his players. So what was the problem at IU? Justin Smith seemed to be a cancer, but on the surface, he's working out OK at Arkansas. 

We've had some pretty big recruiting misses over the past couple years, too. I can't help but feel like the recruits maybe got a bad vibe from the current players on the current atmosphere. There obviously is something wrong with TJD -- even prior to last night's hissy fit, he just seemed very disengaged at times. I don't recall that happening last year. And when we were struggling two years ago, he posted on Twitter that he had no plans to alter his commitment to IU. After last season, he said he was 100 percent on board with coming back for his sophomore year. 

So ... what went wrong? 

I honestly thought four years ago, we hired the right guy. He played the game -- unlike CTC -- was a coach's son, was a basketball junkie and had a good record at Dayton (yes, I realize that's a mid-major -- but I didn't see any reason that wouldn't translate to a P5 school). Plus, had we not hired him, Ohio State probably would have. 

He's obviously not the right fit at IU, but I don't buy that it has anything to do with him having to press the flesh or speaking to alumni or those outside things that he might not have had to do at an Ohio State. What does the product on the floor have to do with any of that? And the product on the floor -- well, it hasn't been good. At times, it's been brilliant -- but when you have one brilliant game followed by four bad games, that doesn't cut it. And that's pretty much been the story of his tenure. 

My pop passed away four years ago in May. He was a Purdue guy, but was a former high school coach and AD, so there was never a lack of opportunity to talk hoops at family gatherings (though they're mostly Toiletmakers, too) or with my dad's friends. I was home for a week for the funeral, etc., and talked some hoops with the aforementioned groups. This was a couple months after we hired Archie. Not one person thought it was a bad move. In fact, some of my Purdue relatives were even worried ... Man, I never in a million years would've expected these past four years to have turned out to be so absolutely mediocre. 

Yes that was true about Rob and Armaan working out. The guy is my sons trainer. He told me he worked them out last summer and I got excited and wanted some insight on them because I still had hope for IU under Archie. When he told me they said he was a assh*le it really deflated my enthusiasm and I've watched this year with a sense of doom and sure enough here we are. There is a disconnect and for 2 of his starters to say that is all you need to know. Chris is right once you lose the players you are done as a coach.

Edited March 3, 2021 by OldBuddy67

[HoosierHoopster]

1 hour ago, Uspshoosier said:

Just a n idol thought for Hoosier fans to think about / yes @IndianaMBB has not been part of @marchmadness  since 2016 . A tidbit for IU lovers @TomCrean had taken Indiana to the @NCAA tourney 4 of 5 years from 2011-12 to 2015-16

Vitale from the top rope.  Lol.    You know he has been waiting 4 years to tweet this.  Got to defend his guy 

It is funny, Vitale can be laughable, but he's not wrong. Not saying the U shouldn't have moved on from TC, he failed to create class balance in his recruiting leading to an up year followed by down, gave out scholarships to guys who were not D1 caliber players, and then lost his recruiting momentum and HS coaches' ears in state, but he did take us from a program playing a baseball player etc. after Sampsongate to an outstanding ranked team within 4 years, got us back to winning the B1G outright, the Sweet 16's and some of the most memorable offense-side basketball we've seen (the Wat Shot, etc.).

I was never never in the camp that hated on Crean, that was largely driven by the old RMK'ers who can't really accept any new IU coach (my opinion) and look for ways to bash the coach's mannerisms and substitution patterns. It did become clear that he likely would not take IU back to consistently playing for conference titles and NCAA tourney runs, and it made sense to move on from Crean.

But it's not like the guy didn't bring IU a lot of success, and clearly,  and imo still surprisingly, he was much more successful than CAM has been able to be. 

[Golfman25]

17 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

It is funny, Vitale can be laughable, but he's not wrong. Not saying the U shouldn't have moved on from TC, he failed to create class balance in his recruiting leading to an up year followed by down, gave out scholarships to guys who were not D1 caliber players, and then lost his recruiting momentum and HS coaches' ears in state, but he did take us from a program playing a baseball player etc. after Sampsongate to an outstanding ranked team within 4 years, got us back to winning the B1G outright, the Sweet 16's and some of the most memorable offense-side basketball we've seen (the Wat Shot, etc.).

I was never never in the camp that hated on Crean, that was largely driven by the old RMK'ers who can't really accept any new IU coach (my opinion) and look for ways to bash the coach's mannerisms and substitution patterns. It did become clear that he likely would not take IU back to consistently playing for conference titles and NCAA tourney runs, and it made sense to move on from Crean.

But it's not like the guy didn't bring IU a lot of success, and clearly,  and imo still surprisingly, he was much more successful than CAM has been able to be. 

I give Crean a ton of credit.  Watching those early games with the Kilroys rec team was tough.  But year 2, saw some incremental improvement.  I expected a lot more in year three, and did my "chit man" when it was basically year 2 all over.  And then there was YEAR 4 -- WE'RE BACK BABY!!!!  Too bad he couldn't get over the hump or sustain it, year after year.  But 1000% better than the crap we have been watching the last 4 years.  

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

Article on the situation at Arizona with Archie's brother.  Maybe they could both go elsewhere as a package deal.

https://247sports.com/college/arizona/Article/arizona-decision-sean-miller-straightforward-161805269/

[NOLA Hoosier]

Tons of press today from multiple outlets about Miller’s impending termination...the writing is quite literally on the wall.