Negativity Thread

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

It looks like the ghost from IU's past and future both had hard nights last night. Crean's team celebrates at halftime like they won the NC, then lays an egg in the 2nd half. Chris Beard's TT team had to work awful hard to get to 50 points. The great Chris Holtman has now lost 3 in a row. It's a long season, every team has ups and downs. Were 11-3 with a win tonight could be 12-3. 

Yea we know our record. We also know how awful we’ve looked all season.


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[IUc2016]

I saw this in another thread, but I didn't want to derail it.
Why are Juatin and Al labeled as Crean players?  I know he signed them, but Archie actively recruited them to stay with IU.   They didn't play a single minute for Crean.  They could have easily been let out of their LOIs for Archie to bring in McKinley Wright or whoever he wanted.  Instead, Archie decided that he wanted them on his team and actively worked to make sure they would become his players.
Blaming Crean at all for them is just another excuse imo.

Yeah I don’t think they are crean’s players. I do think they are players Archie would not have gone out and recruited in normal circumstances. All in all they are his responsibility now and it is year three and they have had plenty of time in his system.

But also it is important to remember that the 2017 recruiting class is a major reason Tom Crean was seen as a lame duck and many said he could no longer recruit because he had a class of Al Durham, Justin Smith, and Clifton Moore. Fans were up in arms about how terrible of a class it was and how Crean missed terribly on that the class. Myself included.

So it kinda fits whatever narrative you want. They were seen as a failure of a class when crean recruited them. But now the narrative is that Archie has them they are his kids and they haven’t developed and it’s all his fault.

Well three years ago people weren’t expecting jack from this class... now it’s the foundation of the team and people can’t figure out why they aren’t great players and this isn’t a great team.

The fact they are the foundation of the team is the bigger concern as I had hoped Archie could have developed other players better.


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[Chris007]

5 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Yeah I don’t think they are crean’s players. I do think they are players Archie would not have gone out and recruited in normal circumstances. All in all they are his responsibility now and it is year three and they have had plenty of time in his system.

But also it is important to remember that the 2017 recruiting class is a major reason Tom Crean was seen as a lame duck and many said he could no longer recruit because he had a class of Al Durham, Justin Smith, and Clifton Moore. Fans were up in arms about how terrible of a class it was and how Crean missed terribly on that the class. Myself included.

So it kinda fits whatever narrative you want. They were seen as a failure of a class when crean recruited them. But now the narrative is that Archie has them they are his kids and they haven’t developed and it’s all his fault.

Well three years ago people weren’t expecting jack from this class... now it’s the foundation of the team and people can’t figure out why they aren’t great players and this isn’t a great team.

The fact they are the foundation of the team is the bigger concern as I had hoped Archie could have developed other players better.


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The one thing about player development is the player has to want to get better. You have the weight room, you have the practice courts, you have the best of everything the university has to offer. The coach can tell you what to work on, can put in the right drills but you have to do the work and put in the time

Crean gets the credit for developing VO, but he didn't do anything. I watch VO spend an hour on ball handling, an hour getting a 1000 shots up every summer day. I think the whole coach's role in player development is overrated. As coach Knight use to say the light bulb either comes on or it doesn't. 

[NashvilleHoosier]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

 Were 11-3 with a win tonight could be 12-3. 

I'll take this one step further. I'm confident enough to say with a win tonight, we would be 12-3. ;-)

[Brass Cannon]

16 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Yeah I don’t think they are crean’s players. I do think they are players Archie would not have gone out and recruited in normal circumstances. All in all they are his responsibility now and it is year three and they have had plenty of time in his system.

But also it is important to remember that the 2017 recruiting class is a major reason Tom Crean was seen as a lame duck and many said he could no longer recruit because he had a class of Al Durham, Justin Smith, and Clifton Moore. Fans were up in arms about how terrible of a class it was and how Crean missed terribly on that the class. Myself included.

So it kinda fits whatever narrative you want. They were seen as a failure of a class when crean recruited them. But now the narrative is that Archie has them they are his kids and they haven’t developed and it’s all his fault.

Well three years ago people weren’t expecting jack from this class... now it’s the foundation of the team and people can’t figure out why they aren’t great players and this isn’t a great team.

The fact they are the foundation of the team is the bigger concern as I had hoped Archie could have developed other players better.


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People didn’t expect this class to save the day after we lost 3 players to the NBA. Don’t think anybody thought they couldn’t be good players by their junior year. 

[Josh]

In my opinion, Smith has improved the most of any returning players.  Five games into this season, I would have argued that Al was our best player.  

I had previously given Archie credit for that, but now I guess he gets none.  Regardless, I just found it strange some were blaming Crean for these guys.

[IUc2016]

People didn’t expect this class to save the day after we lost 3 players to the NBA. Don’t think anybody thought they couldn’t be good players by their junior year. 

I mean I think it is debatable whether al and Justin are good players. They shouldn’t be the foundation of a team though.


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[LamarCheeks]

The reason we're in such a pickle? We didn't hire Steve Pikiell. Rutgers is 3-1 in the B1G right now -- 12-3 overall. 

Fire Archie and throw a bunch of money at him. That's the answer. We'll be back among the elite in no time!!! 

Not sure, however, if he claps or chews gum. Those, obviously, are detriments. 

[Brass Cannon]

3 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

I mean I think it is debatable whether al and Justin are good players. They shouldn’t be the foundation of a team though.


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Why not?  Plenty of coaches build teams with upper classmen similarly ranked. They are t good players because they haven’t developed more than the bare minimum 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I mean I think it is debatable whether al and Justin are good players. They shouldn’t be the foundation of a team though.


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Smith would be a lot better in a system with more ball and player movement as well as some shooters. Al is just who he is. A guy more likely to give you 6 points than 15 and always have a couple plays where you scratch your head. Durham would be best not handling the ball so much and just spotting up.


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[cthomas]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

As much as I try to refrain from linking to other message boards, here are two extensive threads from this week that y'all may find insightful:    ;)

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-state/board/123/Contents/is-holtman-the-answer-141589343/

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/board/103990/Contents/what-is-macks-buyout-141811041/

 

After reading through this, my neighbor's grass is looking better than mine....and his wife ain't bad either.

[IUc2016]

23 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Why not?  Plenty of coaches build teams with upper classmen similarly ranked. They are t good players because they haven’t developed more than the bare minimum 

Brass, we will agree to disagree that Al and Justin should be the foundation of a successful team at IU. 

[Josh]

15 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Brass, we will agree to disagree that Al and Justin should be the foundation of a successful team at IU. 

It's certainly debatable as to whether or not they should be.  But this coach wanted them to be.  So they are

[Lebowski]

48 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

The reason we're in such a pickle? We didn't hire Steve Pikiell. Rutgers is 3-1 in the B1G right now -- 12-3 overall. 

Fire Archie and throw a bunch of money at him. That's the answer. We'll be back among the elite in no time!!! 

Not sure, however, if he claps or chews gum. Those, obviously, are detriments. 

They lost to SBU at home and two on the road to MSU and PITT.  I'll wait and see once how they fair in the grind of the schedule.  

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

The one thing about player development is the player has to want to get better. You have the weight room, you have the practice courts, you have the best of everything the university has to offer. The coach can tell you what to work on, can put in the right drills but you have to do the work and put in the time

Crean gets the credit for developing VO, but he didn't do anything. I watch VO spend an hour on ball handling, an hour getting a 1000 shots up every summer day. I think the whole coach's role in player development is overrated. As coach Knight use to say the light bulb either comes on or it doesn't. 

I wholeheartedly agree.  Doing the extra things is on the player.  But I believe you're just talking about the extra things the make a VO.  Those aren't a common thing.  They're a diamond in the rough.  You're not going to get an entire team of VO's even if a player does the extra things.

Some players need a coach to motivate them.  I know not doing the extra things you speak of and just doing the required things the system/program is having a player do should result into some sort of development.  It's not like these players don't practice, go to weight room, watch film, have nutritionist, get personal tutors, etc. etc.. 

[IUc2016]

It's certainly debatable as to whether or not they should be.  But this coach wanted them to be.  So they are

This coach wanted them to be A PART of this team. Not the foundation.

Injuries to Jerome Hunter, rob, and Race haven’t helped.

Plus recruiting misses like Carton, Garland, and many others tend to support the fact he was not of the mindset that in year three al and Justin should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. But they are, and here we are, a struggling team.

But still an 11-3 team.


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[Brass Cannon]

47 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Brass, we will agree to disagree that Al and Justin should be the foundation of a successful team at IU. 

That’s not what I am saying so I would please ask you to not put words in my mouth. And having to put words in somebodies mouth does not indicate that you are approaching the debate without bias. 

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

The one thing about player development is the player has to want to get better. You have the weight room, you have the practice courts, you have the best of everything the university has to offer. The coach can tell you what to work on, can put in the right drills but you have to do the work and put in the time

Crean gets the credit for developing VO, but he didn't do anything. I watch VO spend an hour on ball handling, an hour getting a 1000 shots up every summer day. I think the whole coach's role in player development is overrated. As coach Knight use to say the light bulb either comes on or it doesn't. 

Yep.  Coach can't want it more than the player.  

[IUc2016]

That’s not what I am saying so I would please ask you to not put words in my mouth. And having to put words in somebodies mouth does not indicate that you are approaching the debate without bias. 

Okay I apologize if it isn’t your belief they should be the foundation of a team at IU.

Just not sure why you would ask me “Why not?” When I said they shouldn’t be the foundation of the team, if it wasn’t your belief.



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[southernindianahoosier2]

Over under on how many pages this thread explodes to if we lose to NW tonight?

[coonhounds]

It looks like the ghost from IU's past and future both had hard nights last night. Crean's team celebrates at halftime like they won the NC, then lays an egg in the 2nd half. Chris Beard's TT team had to work awful hard to get to 50 points. The great Chris Holtman has now lost 3 in a row. It's a long season, every team has ups and downs. Were 11-3 with a win tonight could be 12-3. 

Holtman soon to lose 4 in a row.

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