Fire or ‘Way to Go!’ Tom Allen?

[JSHoosier]

2 hours ago, Alford Bailey said:

Exactly what ive been saying for a while.We would suck in the west as well.

I won't deny the East does us no favors but comparing the two for us is essentially  just comparing levels of suck.

[Hovadipo]

12 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

The record in the past is completely irrelevant to this discussion.   Indiana is better now than we were in the past.   We are easily deeper than our bowl teams from a few years ago, and we have come out of the tunnel from a QB who limited us offensively.  

My biggest gripe about Tom Allen was his insistence that we start Peyton Ramsey over Penix a year ago.   Penix was DeBord's guy and he got over-ruled.   

Recruiting is better.  No, it's not with Michigan, OSU, PSU, etc., but it's also not going to be.  Indiana will never be on that level as a football program...or not consistently.   Those of you who think "throw money at it" is the answer, what happens when we get close to that level? You think those programs are going to stand still and just accept it?  They have a hell of a lot more money to throw at it than we do.   

Indiana football - right now - is in good shape relative to our standards.  If the record doesn't show it this season and/or next?  You'll get your wish.    But....firing Tom Allen now is nothing more than a vindictive wish because some don't like him.  There is no justifiable reason to fire him now....regardless of what our history is and regardless of what you think of Fred Glass.   What you want from him and his actual job are different things

Is this pointed at me again? We agree and you’re just arguing against air if anything, so save yourself the time typing. 

[Old Friend]

8 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

Is this pointed at me again? We agree and you’re just arguing against air if anything, so save yourself the time typing. 

No.  I don't know why you keep assuming so.  If it was pointed at you, I'd quote you.  Relax and smile.

[LamarCheeks]

13 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

 

But....firing Tom Allen now is nothing more than a vindictive wish because some don't like him.  There is no justifiable reason to fire him now....regardless of what our history is and regardless of what you think of Fred Glass.   What you want from him and his actual job are different things

Why the hell do you have to always categorize everything as if you know what everyone is thinking? 

At one point, people who wanted Glass or Allen out were just bitching for the sake of bitching. 

And at another, people who didn't like Dan Dakich were just plain wrong because they don't know him like you do. 

And now, people who want Tom Allen fired are vindictive and don't like him. 

Here's my truth: I like Tom Allen. I think he's a good man. I have no reason to be vindictive toward him. And I think on certain levels, he's probably a pretty good football coach.  I just don't happen to think he's a very capable B1G head coach. I wouldn't say I'm totally 100 percent on board with the "fire Tom Allen" crowd, but I'm leaning that way. To me, he's just a reincarnation of Mike Davis or Bill Lynch -- the convenient hire, and those usually don't prove successful. 

But there's nothing vindictive about my thoughts on Tom Allen and there's no hate toward him. 

Stop trying to label everything that opposes your viewpoint. Let people have their opinions without categorizing or labeling them or their thoughts. I thought that was kinda the point of this board. 

[Hovadipo]

Just now, Old Friend said:

No.  I don't know why you keep assuming so.  If it was pointed at you, I'd quote you.  Relax and smile.

I’m not one of those that have brought up money? And that you continually throw into a group of “elementary solutions”? Gotcha! I’ll just keep relaxin’ and you keep makin’ us all smarter. 

[Old Friend]

1 minute ago, Hovadipo said:

I’m not one of those that have brought up money? And that you continually throw into a group of “elementary solutions”? Gotcha! I’ll just keep relaxin’ and you keep makin’ us all smarter. 

To be very honest, I don't remember one thing from you.  I have no idea what you've said or haven't said.  But if you're in that group, I'll put you there if you want to be.   If you believe "throwing money at it" is the solution, I'll refer you to my point above and you can put yourself in whatever category you'd like.  How's that?

[Hoosierfan2017]

1 minute ago, Old Friend said:

To be very honest, I don't remember one thing from you.  I have no idea what you've said or haven't said.  But if you're in that group, I'll put you there if you want to be.   If you believe "throwing money at it" is the solution, I'll refer you to my point above and you can put yourself in whatever category you'd like.  How's that?

You take people's well-thought-out arguments and reduce them to "throw money at it" so that way you can ridicule the simplified argument. No one has said that "throwing money at it" will automatically make us great, but it's your go-to retort. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

18 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Why the hell do you have to always categorize everything as if you know what everyone is thinking? 

At one point, people who wanted Glass or Allen out were just bitching for the sake of bitching. 

And at another, people who didn't like Dan Dakich were just plain wrong because they don't know him like you do. 

And now, people who want Tom Allen fired are vindictive and don't like him. 

Here's my truth: I like Tom Allen. I think he's a good man. I have no reason to be vindictive toward him. And I think on certain levels, he's probably a pretty good football coach.  I just don't happen to think he's a very capable B1G head coach. I wouldn't say I'm totally 100 percent on board with the "fire Tom Allen" crowd, but I'm leaning that way. To me, he's just a reincarnation of Mike Davis or Bill Lynch -- the convenient hire, and those usually don't prove successful. 

But there's nothing vindictive about my thoughts on Tom Allen and there's no hate toward him. 

Stop trying to label everything that opposes your viewpoint. Let people have their opinions without categorizing or labeling them or their thoughts. I thought that was kinda the point of this board. 

Yeah, Allen seems like a really good guy. I think he's goofy, but he's a man with the kind of character you want for the face of your program. I just don't think he has the coaching chops. 

[Old Friend]

22 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Why the hell do you have to always categorize everything as if you know what everyone is thinking? 
They write what they write.  I just read.   I don't categorize.
At one point, people who wanted Glass or Allen out were just bitching for the sake of bitching. 
Some still are.
And at another, people who didn't like Dan Dakich were just plain wrong because they don't know him like you do. 
I never said anyone was wrong.  All I did was offer a different perspective of him and mention I knew him and insulting his character (which many have done) is really an uneducated stance.   And it is.   People are entitled to their own opinions of his delivery.
And now, people who want Tom Allen fired are vindictive and don't like him. 
Who said anything about "liking him" as a person?   That's you applying meaning, not what I said.
Here's my truth: I like Tom Allen. I think he's a good man. I have no reason to be vindictive toward him. And I think on certain levels, he's probably a pretty good football coach.  I just don't happen to think he's a very capable B1G head coach. I wouldn't say I'm totally 100 percent on board with the "fire Tom Allen" crowd, but I'm leaning that way. To me, he's just a reincarnation of Mike Davis or Bill Lynch -- the convenient hire, and those usually don't prove successful. 
The results in the next year or two will either bear that out or not.  Which is what I said above.   Firing him now would be based on...what?   Fact : he has the 2nd best winning % in Indiana football history.   I'm not all in, either....but firing a coach or AD should have some basis and merit; and doing so would set a horrible precedent for a university that can't afford that in it's football program.   Firing him now would have no merit or reasonable justification.  Disagree?   Debate it.   And I think all of the "fire so and so" talk is poison from a so called fan base.   So, I offer different perspectives others seem to fight because.....?    
But there's nothing vindictive about my thoughts on Tom Allen and there's no hate toward him. 
I never used the word hate.   Do you want him fired?   If not, then this point is irrelevant.  If you do, I disagree.. I would say that's a vindictive thought process because he's done nothing to deserve it.
Stop trying to label everything that opposes your viewpoint. Let people have their opinions without categorizing or labeling them or their thoughts. I thought that was kinda the point of this board.   I'll write what I want to write.  You don't have to read it.  Or...learn to be disagreed with without telling me to "stop."   I've asked for defense of position and possible (reasonable) replacement candidates.   What do I get?  Deflections, avoidance (not from you), and : "Stop ______."   This is the problem.  "I don't like what you say, so stop saying it!"    That about right?   You can say whatever you want.   And if I disagree with it, I can say whatever I want.   Deal?

 

[DChoosier]

21 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

If you can’t occasionally beat a ranked team, you can’t consistently make bowls.  Allen has never beaten one, which basically means he has to be perfect against unranked teams to make a bowl...and we haven’t been.  Allen has brought in decent talent....and can’t win with it.  I don’t see how it could be called anything but a bad hire.  Wilson’s tenure might have ended in turmoil but the table was at s minimum set for his successor to succeed and Allen hasn’t.

I posted this before. Wilson didn’t exactly beat conference powerhouses, or even above average BT teams, in his tenure. Without Hazel at PU, whom he should send a thank you card, he might not have made it to a bowl. Would be nice if we could beat at least one average team this year. Hope Allen and the staff learned a few things when they crumbled a bit when we had the lead last week. 

The previous post.......

Wilson’s bowl teams both had 6-6 records but he partially  lucked out in that Purdue was historically putrid when  Hazel coached them.  I enjoyed Wilson’s “asterisk wins”, when he stayed close to OSU and Michigan, but he really didn’t beat any good or even average conference teams during his two bowl years as seen below.

 6-6.....2-6 in conference (beat Maryland 1-7 in conf and Purdue 1-7)

6-6....4-5 in conference (MSU 1-8, Maryland 3-6, Rutgers 0-9, Purdue 1-8).

[LamarCheeks]

1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

 

I shouldn't have written for you to stop putting labels on everybody and their opinions. I should've just said "I wish you'd stop" doing that. And you do categorize. You've done it plenty of times.  

And I never said anything about liking Tom Allen as a person, either. You are the one who wrote: "But....firing Tom Allen now is nothing more than a vindictive wish because some don't like him." And the fact that I may or may not want him fired doesn't mean I'm vindictive or that I don't like him. I can want him fired simply because I don't think he's a capable B1G head coach. That's not vindictive. Not at all. Again, that's you categorizing. 

Keep defending Tom Allen if you wish. You think he's an exceptional coach -- the best in the B1G -- and the greatest coach in the history of IU football, so debating it is fruitless. (See what I did there? I categorized your defense of Tom Allen into you thinking he's the greatest IU coach ever and the Big Ten's best, just as you do when you say people who want him fired are vindictive and don't like him. And just as you do when you say people are bitching for the sake of bitching). 

Have a nice day and carry on. Deal? 

[HoosierAloha]

I don’t necessarily think “throwing money at it” is a proper solution to many problems. I’d like to see the athletic department be more detail oriented.

The issues at football games last season were embarrassing. How difficult is it to keep bird **** off seats? How difficult is it to have enough refreshments? Those are basic things that should never be an issue.

The donations are great. The upgraded facilities are great. However, I think we can do more. There are donors out there with deep pocketbooks that have spent and will continue to spend.

I’d also like to see more fans in the stands. It’s an egg and chicken kind of situation. We have a team that looks like we can compete with some of the remaining teams on the schedule. I’d like to see the team be able to feed off the crowd.

As far as CTA, he has made some football decisions I don’t agree with but I believe he has room to grow as a head coach. We’re talking one win each of the last two seasons to be having a completely different discussion. There are 5 games we could win. If we get to a bowl or more I’d consider that a notch on CTA belt.

Let’s see how the year plays out.


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[HoosierAloha]

Just thinking about the divisions by teams and recent history. I think it’s obvious the east is way better at the top. Let’s say we replace Purdoodoo in the west.

O$U - Wisconsin (O$U)
Michigan - Iowa (Michigan)
Penn State - Northwestern (PSU)
MSU - Nebraska (MSU)
Maryland - Minnesota (Minnesota)
Rutgers - Illinois (both are turrible)

So who honestly thinks we fare worse in the west? I’m in no way saying we’d dominate the west but we’d at least have more opportunities at wins. That might lead to one of those elusive winning seasons.


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[Old Friend]

16 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Just thinking about the divisions by teams and recent history. I think it’s obvious the east is way better at the top. Let’s say we replace Purdoodoo in the west.

O$U - Wisconsin (O$U)
Michigan - Iowa (Michigan)
Penn State - Northwestern (PSU)
MSU - Nebraska (MSU)
Maryland - Minnesota (Minnesota)
Rutgers - Illinois (both are turrible)

So who honestly thinks we fare worse in the west? I’m in no way saying we’d dominate the west but we’d at least have more opportunities at wins. That might lead to one of those elusive winning seasons.


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My point East v West is in the West, there are no teams about whom I can reasonably say "Indiana cannot and will not ever consistently reach that level."    In the East, there are 3.   

Indiana can and likely will beat those 3 every now and then,  but more often than not, Indiana will lose those 3 games.   That's just reality, and it's very simply a far more difficult division for Indiana to expect consistent success.  As I mentioned earlier, if Indiana takes the "throw money at it" approach and gains on those 3 programs, it's foolish to think they would simply stand pat.  All 3 would make immediate changes if they - by their standards - "dropped" enough to let Indiana catch them and stay there. 

That's why I don't think Indiana is that far off from its reasonable ceiling.   It's NOT reasonable to start with those 3 games and then go undefeated in the other 9 on a regular basis.   7-2 is more reasonable and 6-3 is probably more realistic.  6-3 makes us 6-6; and that's a pretty good season for Indiana.  8-4 would be a GREAT season for us.  It's hard for me to believe it's reasonable to expect 8-1 in our other 9 games on a regular basis.

I'd love a show of hands to see who really believes Indiana can regularly beat Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State.

[Alford Bailey]

Lets win some crossover games then we can whine about divisions.

[Alford Bailey]

5 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Yeah, Allen seems like a really good guy. I think he's goofy, but he's a man with the kind of character you want for the face of your program. I just don't think he has the coaching chops. 

Tom Crean without the big wins is one description Ive heard.

[Walking Boot of Doom]

I just ask to be Bowl eligible every year. We could be offered a guaranteed 6-6 record every year for the next 10 years, no more, no less, and I would wholeheartedly take it.


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Okay, then fight for a division realignment. That would nearly guarantee at least 6 wins.


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[Hoosierfan2017]

32 minutes ago, Alford Bailey said:

Tom Crean without the big wins is one description Ive heard.

That's honestly a really good description. 

[Magnanimous]

5 hours ago, Alford Bailey said:

Tom Crean without the big wins is one description Ive heard.

Tom Allen’s awesome.

[Walking Boot of Doom]

Tom Allen’s awesome.

Count me as a fan. He’s creating a culture at IUFB and recruits and players are buying.


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