Indiana vs Penn State Post Game Thread

[Whoozhers]

Smith 25 minutes. Moore 7 minutes. I don’t recall Moore playing in the second half. Why?


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[NRT137]

Smith 25 minutes. Moore 7 minutes. I don’t recall Moore playing in the second half. Why?


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Maybe you’re like Jason Bourne and have amnesia


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[A.j. Nigh]

6 minutes ago, Whoozhers said:

Smith 25 minutes. Moore 7 minutes. I don’t recall Moore playing in the second half. Why?


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Because as productive as his first 2 minutes were, and it was nice to see, he was then completely lost on defense and missed an easy block out.  Penn State ran a back screen at the ft line against him and he was still looking at the guard who had already passed the ball to his man under the hoop for a bucket.  For all of Smith’s offensive issues, his defense was leaps and bounds better and a key factor last night.

[Brass Cannon]

12 minutes ago, A.j. Nigh said:

Because as productive as his first 2 minutes were, and it was nice to see, he was then completely lost on defense and missed an easy block out.  Penn State ran a back screen at the ft line against him and he was still looking at the guard who had already passed the ball to his man under the hoop for a bucket.  For all of Smith’s offensive issues, his defense was leaps and bounds better and a key factor last night.

Which considering his D had been a train wreck recently perhaps there is hope

[Whoozhers]

That was a bad defensive play by Moore. Granted. But, compare his productive 7 minutes vs. Smith’s 25. He packed a lot into his 7 minutes.
I like Smith, it sure would be good to see him play to his potential every game though.


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[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, Whoozhers said:

That was a bad defensive play by Moore. Granted. But, compare his productive 7 minutes vs. Smith’s 25. He packed a lot into his 7 minutes.
I like Smith, it sure would be good to see him play to his potential every game though.


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Moore is like Green. Great for a spark but once the other team realizes who they are playing they adapt. 

 

[Stuhoo]

 

Our bigs (other than Juwan) present Archie with an interesting conundrum. 

The most intuitive of the 'non-Juwan bigs' on both ends of the floor is DeRon; he is the best screener, runs the offense, has good hands, passes pretty well out of the post, gets into help position on defense...all that. The problem is that his skill set is not a good match for what Archie is trying to do. When he does everything right he is still a split second slow on the defensive end and with his ability to rebound. He can't jump, and he can't close out when hedging all that well.

Justin is a pure plus defender; all the things that Archie is looking for on that end. Lamar Stevens saw it last night. Justin's instincts are quite good on that end of the floor, and because of that his athleticism is unleashed on that end. However, on the offensive end his instinctual reactions are terrible, and therefore his athleticism is never brought into play. I'm guessing that Archie's current take is to have Justin play as much as possible without the ball in his hands and hope that his sense of how to play offense develops. Remember, he is only nine games into his sophomore year. That's the problem with Green; he is nine games into his junior year and has to play with the ball in his hands. If DeVonte can't play with the ball in his hands by now the jury is in.

Fitzner? The guy has Hanner Perea-level bad hands. He did a nice job on-ball against Stevens last night - his length must've bothered him a bit, but his ability to help on defense stinks. Max Bielfeldt he ain't.

Moore intrigues me. First; it is a given that he very much still needs to gain 15 pounds. But his timing defensively and rebounding is naturally so, so good; the 'Moore comes in and alters/blocks shots' thing is real. He looks confused on both ends of the floor but he's barely played - maybe he gets some real run after the Butler/Louisville games during our December cupcake stretch. Wouldn't be shocked if they give him a real look to see if he can supplant Fitzner; he has a lot more potential. If he can learn to hedge hard on screens, screen and pop with authority instead of chasing the ball to screen, and improve his defensive vision we may have another useful piece.

 

 

[SlamaJamaSisley]

34 minutes ago, A.j. Nigh said:

Because as productive as his first 2 minutes were, and it was nice to see, he was then completely lost on defense and missed an easy block out.  Penn State ran a back screen at the ft line against him and he was still looking at the guard who had already passed the ball to his man under the hoop for a bucket.  For all of Smith’s offensive issues, his defense was leaps and bounds better and a key factor last night.

I agree with you for the most part.  I won't claim to be an expert on pack line but Al had to hold up Moore's guy at least a little on that back screen, right?  Now, whether Moore is engaged enough to recover (likely not) is another story.  I just bet Archie gets on to Al just as much as Moore.

[Brass Cannon]

7 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Our bigs (other than Juwan) present Archie with an interesting conundrum. 

The most intuitive of the 'non-Juwan bigs' on both ends of the floor is DeRon; he is the best screener, runs, the offense, has good hands, passes pretty well out of the post, gets into help position on defense...all that. The problem is that his skill set is not a good match for what Archie is trying to do. When he does everything right he is still a split second slow on the defensive end and with his ability to rebound. He can't jump, and he can't close out when hedging all that well.

Justin is a pure plus defender; all the things that Archie is looking for on that end. Lamar Stevens saw it last night. Justin's instincts are quite good on that end of the floor, and because of that his athleticism is unleashed on that end. However, on the offensive end his instinctual reactions are terrible, and therefore his athleticism is never brought into play. I'm guessing that Archie's current take is to have Justin play as much as possible without the ball in his his hands ds and hope that his sense of how to play offense develops. Remember, he is only nine games into his sophomore year. That's the problem with Green; he is nine games into his junior year and has to play with the ball in his hands. If DeVonte can't play with the ball in his hands by now the jury is in.

Fitzner? The guy has Hanner Perea-level bad hands. He did a nice job on-ball against Stevens last night - his length must've bothered him a bit, but his ability to help on defense stinks. Max Bielfeldt he ain't.

Moore intrigues me. First; it is a given that he very much still needs to gain 15 pounds. But his timing defensively and rebounding is naturally so, so good; the 'Moore comes in and alters/blocks shots' thing is real. He looks confused on both ends of the floor but he's barely played - maybe he gets some real run after the Butler/Louisville games during our December cupcake stretch. Wouldn't be shocked if they give him a real look to see if he can supplant Fitzner; he has a lot more potential. If he can learn to hedge hard on screens, screen and pop with authority instead of chasing the ball to screen, and improve his defensive vision we may have another useful piece.

 

 

Romeo should get all of Smiths possessions

[Stuhoo]

21 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Romeo should get all of Smiths possessions

 

Sure (in theory), but it's just not that simple. 

I'm certainly no college-level coach but I've coached a little, and it is very, very difficult (and throws everything out of whack) when you have to try to 'hide' a player on either end of the court. I know you're using hyperbole, but can you imagine Archie telling Smith and Romeo that "Smith should give Romeo his possessions?" One of the great things about Romeo is that he doesn't mindlessly 'hunt shots' (okay, last night he took one NBA distance heat-check three pointer).  Romeo is new at this, but his already getting a great sense of when it's in the team's best interest for him to take over. The last 3:30 of the NW game and a few times last night when the shot clock was running down are proof positive. Romeo's usage rate is already plenty high.

 

BY THE WAY; as much as I try to be a jolly good time around here, I LOVE it when the board talks real basketball. Huge kudos to pap, usps, Old Friend and others for prompting this conversation!

 

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Sure (in theory), but it's just not that simple. 

I'm certainly no college-level coach but I've coached a little, and it is very, very difficult (and throws everything out of whack) when you have to try to 'hide' a player on either end of the court. I know you're using hyperbole, but can you imagine Archie telling Smith and Romeo that "Smith should give Romeo his possessions?" One of the great things about Romeo is that he doesn't mindlessly 'hunt shots' (okay, last night he took one NBA distance heat-check three pointer).  Romeo is new at this, but his already getting a great sense of when it's in the team's best interest for him to take over. The last 3:30 of the NW game and a few times last night when the shot clock was running down are proof positive. Romeo's usage rate is already plenty high.

 

 

Agreed would have gone more in depth but site keeps crashing on me. Gotta keep posts short

[Stuhoo]

10 hours ago, Old Friend said:

Archie's offense is bad right now.   There's just no purpose to it.   It's sometimes hard for me to figure out where he wants shots to come from and I have no idea how you can't find a significant role for a player like Smith but you can watch Devonta Green turn it over game after game while he shoots 35% from the floor.  Our freshmen had a combined 29/11/6 with just 3 turnovers and 6-6 from the FT line in a total of 63 minutes.  That's a good night. Thought Durham was solid as well.

 

 

The offense isn't great right now - true.

But, let me give you the positive spin on that. Last year we improved dramatically on offense by Jan/Feb with DeVonte Green and Josh Newkirk (yeesh) running the show, complemented by a very young and confused Smith and Durham, and with the extremely limited McSwain and Hartman in the big rotation. 

If those guys could 'get it' as the year progressed, then Phin and Romeo absolutely will. That, and as you said, a sophomore Durham is an entirely different player than he was as a freshman.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Just now, Stuhoo said:

 

The offense isn't great right now - true.

But, let me give you the positive spin on that. Last year we improved dramatically on offense by Jan/Feb with DeVonte Green and Josh Newkirk (yeesh) running the show, complemented by a very young and confused Smith and Durham, and with the extremely limited McSwain and Hartman in the big rotation. 

If those guys could 'get it' as the year progressed, then Phin and Romeo absolutely will. That, and as you said, a sophomore Durham is an entirely different player than he was as a freshman.

 

Durham looks like he might be our third scoring option honestly. He has been stroking it well from 3 and has nice touch around the basket.

[HoosierX]

Just now, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Durham looks like he might be our third scoring option honestly. He has been stroking it well from 3 and has nice touch around the basket.

He is slowly breaking me of my need to shout out "Nooooo!" every time he shoots.

[Stuhoo]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Durham looks like he might be our third scoring option honestly. He has been stroking it well from 3 and has nice touch around the basket.

 

"He has been stroking it well from 3" is an understatement; he is 12-25 on the season! That's 48%.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

23 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

"He has been stroking it well from 3" is an understatement; he is 12-25 on the season! That's 48%.

 

I'm an understated man.

[incrediboy]

2 hours ago, Whoozhers said:

Smith 25 minutes. Moore 7 minutes. I don’t recall Moore playing in the second half. Why?


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I think that was a good decision. Let the kid have a positive game to build on. 

[JSHoosier]

Green gave IU a spark in the first half and PSU a spark in the second.  Relying on him for big minutes is playing with fire because of his sub-zero basketball IQ.  It's why I have never been a fan.

Maybe he got away with it on playgrounds in New York but it doesn't work at this level.

[incrediboy]

Later in the season I think we will look back on this game as a crucial one. As Watkins gets healthy, Penn State will start winning and I will be surprised if it doesn't finish in the top half of the league and go to the Big Dance. Its win over Va Tech was no fluke, and Tech beat Purdue at Mackey after being down by 6 at the half. Hopefully we'll get Hunter back when conference play resumes. I'm feeling very good about this team going forward.

[Chips&Dipo]

A few things:

The offense was stagnant at times, but I think that was because of the operators more so than the sets. I really like how CAM overcrowded one side of the floor to open up curlers on the corners and top of the key. Lots of movement on the sides. Good way to confuse aggressive defenses.

A few times, Romeo would get the ball at the top of the key and then immediately pass the ball back (he was also lazy a couple of times on his curls). I agree with hoosierpap when he says Romeo is missing a killer instinct and I have thought that the whole season. His tentativeness the second half was the difference, not the offense. That being said, he is projecting the right way and I think he slowly figuring it out. If he can be as aggressive as he was the first half for the rest of the season, he could do some special things.

Juwan has got to become more consistent. He gets touches but doesn't convert and then commits stupid, reach in fouls and has to play soft rest of the game. He didn't really turn the corner last year until after the crossroads classic. I am hoping he does something similar this year.

RP is going to be a special player (broken record). His play and body type reminds me so much of Yogi (dude's biceps are no joke). Not saying he is going to be the same player, but get some talent around him the next few years and watch out. He does get lost some times on defense, but he definitely corrects himself during the game which is a hard thing to do.

Smith is approaching freshman/sophomore year Troy with me. He does some things very well (rebounding, defense), but his offense lapses are hurting us more than his other qualities (especially since Romeo and RP are such good rebounding guards). If I see him catch the ball on one side of the basket and he dribble to the other side of the basket to put up a bad shot one more time, I am going to have to start buying higher ABV beers for the games.

Greene really helped hemorrhage the bleeding in the first half, but then he went off the wall. He needs to understand his role on this team and (apparently) needs to respond better to coaching.

Al is doing the opposite of Greene. He understands his role on the team and has been a positive piece all season. Has had some mistakes, but overall has been a key asset and a positive on the offensive side.

When I saw Moore go in, I said "oh no." Was glad with some of the things he did, but then he got completely lost on defense. Looked like Bambi on roller blades out there.

Overall: Good win and saw lots of positives and negatives, which helps lead to better coaching. We played and beat a top 10 defense (which also explains lulls in offense on our end) and a top 40 team overall at home. We beat them on an off night by us. They didn't shoot free throws well, but we also shot 10% for the first 5-10 minutes. I think after the game on Saturday (and hopefully a commitment by Brooks), the week off will be a nice break for the team to come together and work on its issues.

ALSO: That guy totally goal tended Phinese right?