(2019) SG Armaan Franklin to IU

[schoosier]

5 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

In that tweet thread posted above with Armaan’s mother, some dweeb continued to say “you insulted an official”.

Once again apologies to the refs in here who are probably good people doing their job, but man you are not an official anything. You wear a zebra suit and mediate middle school and high school games. You’re not a judge upholding a legal system. Get off your damn power trip.

People are weird as hell man. Give some an ounce of power and they’ll take everything they can.




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I admire any of our posters who officiate, and working local games at a few $ per game. So getting clocked by players, coaches, parents, and fans are probably not high on their lists. But big time officiating sucks from the college football and basketball games I have seen recently. College b-ball should go to 6 fouls and the replay rules at least keeps football in check. Before IU just got screwed by TV Teddy and Hightower because of Knight. Now, it seems they all are horrible. I would soon like to see Arc get T’d up to see how are team responds. If not, how are we ever gonna start getting respect?

[Stuhoo]

Refereeing well is a REALLY difficult task, and it is attempted by flawed human-like people.

Sooooo... stuff routinely goes less than as well as fans would like.

And that is a largely unalterable reality.

 

[Old Friend]

5 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

In that tweet thread posted above with Armaan’s mother, some dweeb continued to say “you insulted an official”.

Once again apologies to the refs in here who are probably good people doing their job, but man you are not an official anything. You wear a zebra suit and mediate middle school and high school games. You’re not a judge upholding a legal system. Get off your damn power trip.

People are weird as hell man. Give some an ounce of power and they’ll take everything they can.

16 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

Sorry if this offends anyone (I’m not) but some (not all, or most even) HS refs have the biggest egos on the planet for a job that’s pretty dang inconsequential. In Illinois especially. I had people get kicked out of my games back in the day for things that wouldn’t even draw attention in church. You’d think that whistle was the pen signing executive orders sometimes. 

 

I admire any of our posters who officiate, and working local games at a few $ per game. So getting clocked by players, coaches, parents, and fans are probably not high on their lists. But big time officiating sucks from the college football and basketball games I have seen recently. College b-ball should go to 6 fouls and the replay rules at least keeps football in check. Before IU just got screwed by TV Teddy and Hightower because of Knight. Now, it seems they all are horrible. I would soon like to see Arc get T’d up to see how are team responds. If not, how are we ever gonna start getting respect?

 

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I don't think you can paint with this broad brush about referees/officials or whatever word you apply to them.  They officiate, therefore, they are "officials."    I've coached for 22 years.   Most of them have been great to work with and talk to.  Most have no ego.  Most are there for the kids; and many officiate basketball, baseball, and football as well.

Above there is a comment about this position being "inconsequential."   Really?  Okay then; other than first responders,  "trauma surgeon," "teacher," "for "suicide prevention specialist;" what jobs ARE consequential?  If not someone who's there entirely for the benefit of other people while having to listen to every disillusioned parent b!tch about his every move while making (after travel expenses) very little money; then who? Lawyers?  Insurance agents?  Accountants?

Are there bad referees?  Yep.  Are a few on a power trip?  I suppose.  But...think back to the games when officials have become confrontational.  When they've become animated (in a bad way) or had their radars up.   Generally speaking, the game itself, the people around it, and yeah...parents have been the ones creating that environment.

Think about a high school game.  How many people involved in that game are there almost exclusively and specifically for the benefit of the kids playing in that game?   The coaches are there most of the time for the kids, but also for their own jobs.  They want to win, and the kids on that particular team are their tools that season.  Parents have agendas.  They just do.  Officials?  If you think their motivation is extra money, you're just not informed about what they make.  ($75 for a football game and many drive 50 miles + and a Friday night starts for them at 5:30 when they arrive and ends about 10:00.  Taking into account travel time and expenses, you can do the math)

Making fun of the uniform they are required to wear?  Really?  And putting all of them into the same category?  Really? Why single out the people HERE who referee and assume everyone ELSE doing that job is an incompetent boob on a power trip?

When you walk into any room, there is someone in charge whose job it is to make sure whatever goes on in that room takes the shape and form it's supposed to.  In a basketball gym, those people are the referees.  Like it or not.  If they reacted to every BS thing they heard (many profane and more of them highly personal), they'd be institutionalized.

WAY too many people put themselves above the fray and sling insults at groups of people with no bearing or basis.  You know why officiating seems to be getting worse?  Same reasons politicians are getting worse.  Who wants the job?  What moron would walk into a gym and listen to Mrs. Johnson, who doesn't know the rules from Moby Dick scream personal insults for an hour and a half?  How many of us here would do a job for little money when all the feedback we get is negative and people with agendas are playing vocal judge and jury for the entirety of the work day?   I would encourage anyone who's b!tching about them without experience to give it a shot.  Then come back here and vitriolically insult them.

You either respect the position and their responsibility or you don't.  If you don't, you're the problem.  Not the solution.   And no.  I have never officiated a game of any kind save a little league baseball game 20 years ago.

 

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

I don't think you can paint with this broad brush about referees/officials or whatever word you apply to them.  They officiate, therefore, they are "officials."    I've coached for 22 years.   Most of them have been great to work with and talk to.  Most have no ego.  Most are there for the kids; and many officiate basketball, baseball, and football as well.
Above there is a comment about this position being "inconsequential."   Really?  Okay then; other than first responders,  "trauma surgeon," "teacher," "for "suicide prevention specialist;" what jobs ARE consequential?  If not someone who's there entirely for the benefit of other people while having to listen to every disillusioned parent b!tch about his every move while making (after travel expenses) very little money; then who? Lawyers?  Insurance agents?  Accountants?
Are there bad referees?  Yep.  Are a few on a power trip?  I suppose.  But...think back to the games when officials have become confrontational.  When they've become animated (in a bad way) or had their radars up.   Generally speaking, the game itself, the people around it, and yeah...parents have been the ones creating that environment.
Think about a high school game.  How many people involved in that game are there almost exclusively and specifically for the benefit of the kids playing in that game?   The coaches are there most of the time for the kids, but also for their own jobs.  They want to win, and the kids on that particular team are their tools that season.  Parents have agendas.  They just do.  Officials?  If you think their motivation is extra money, you're just not informed about what they make.  ($75 for a football game and many drive 50 miles + and a Friday night starts for them at 5:30 when they arrive and ends about 10:00.  Taking into account travel time and expenses, you can do the math)
Making fun of the uniform they are required to wear?  Really?  And putting all of them into the same category?  Really? Why single out the people HERE who referee and assume everyone ELSE doing that job is an incompetent boob on a power trip?
When you walk into any room, there is someone in charge whose job it is to make sure whatever goes on in that room takes the shape and form it's supposed to.  In a basketball gym, those people are the referees.  Like it or not.  If they reacted to every BS thing they heard (many profane and more of them highly personal), they'd be institutionalized.
WAY too many people put themselves above the fray and sling insults at groups of people with no bearing or basis.  You know why officiating seems to be getting worse?  Same reasons politicians are getting worse.  Who wants the job?  What moron would walk into a gym and listen to Mrs. Johnson, who doesn't know the rules from Moby Dick scream personal insults for an hour and a half?  How many of us here would do a job for little money when all the feedback we get is negative and people with agendas are playing vocal judge and jury for the entirety of the work day?   I would encourage anyone who's b!tching about them without experience to give it a shot.  Then come back here and vitriolically insult them.
You either respect the position and their responsibility or you don't.  If you don't, you're the problem.  Not the solution.   And no.  I have never officiated a game of any kind save a little league baseball game 20 years ago.
 

Great post

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[WayneFleekHoosier]

I’ve officiated basketball and coached for about 10 years. I do it for the kids. At the level I’m doing it, I don’t get paid.

Parents in all sports and virtually at all ages can be brutal. I get it though. They are so heavily invested and have zero control. It’s just the nature of things.

My experience is the refs I’ve worked with LOVE the sport and want to do a great job. It is a very,
Very hard job if you haven’t tried it. Especially basketball with so many subjective calls. I think there is some substance to the ego thing, but I don’t think that is the intention. You have to be in control or look in control or you will be eaten alive by the coaches, players, and families.

As far the the Franklin situation, it looks like no big deal whatsoever from all sides imo.


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[Stuhoo]

I’ve refereed basketball through high school rec and baseball, and flag football at IU intramural. 

Basketball is by far the most difficult to do well; very dependent on your partners and multiple places to focus on constantly, with subjective calls in all places.

 

[Brass Cannon]

35 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I’ve refereed basketball through high school rec and baseball, and flag football at IU intramural. 

Basketball is by far the most difficult to do well; very dependent on your partners and multiple places to focus on constantly, with subjective calls in all places.

 

I firmly believe basketball needs another official. There is too much on their plate. 

[Hovadipo]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I’ve officiated basketball and coached for about 10 years. I do it for the kids. At the level I’m doing it, I don’t get paid.

Parents in all sports and virtually at all ages can be brutal. I get it though. They are so heavily invested and have zero control. It’s just the nature of things.

My experience is the refs I’ve worked with LOVE the sport and want to do a great job. It is a very,
Very hard job if you haven’t tried it. Especially basketball with so many subjective calls. I think there is some substance to the ego thing, but I don’t think that is the intention. You have to be in control or look in control or you will be eaten alive by the coaches, players, and families.

As far the the Franklin situation, it looks like no big deal whatsoever from all sides imo.


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I largely agree with you here. Most doing the job love their sport(s) that they ref and even if they aren’t great at it, they’re fair and try to get better. Those people are saints because, as Old Friend said, the job really can suck.

The problem becomes when someone takes the power of the position and lets their ego get in the way of the job, creating a negative effect on a game. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s obvious when it does. It’s just a case of a few bad apples being way more visible than the regular ones as it is in literally anything else. Pointing that out apparently ruffled a couple (not yours) feathers. 

[Walking Boot of Doom]

I don't think you can paint with this broad brush about referees/officials or whatever word you apply to them.  They officiate, therefore, they are "officials."    I've coached for 22 years.   Most of them have been great to work with and talk to.  Most have no ego.  Most are there for the kids; and many officiate basketball, baseball, and football as well.
Above there is a comment about this position being "inconsequential."   Really?  Okay then; other than first responders,  "trauma surgeon," "teacher," "for "suicide prevention specialist;" what jobs ARE consequential?  If not someone who's there entirely for the benefit of other people while having to listen to every disillusioned parent b!tch about his every move while making (after travel expenses) very little money; then who? Lawyers?  Insurance agents?  Accountants?
Are there bad referees?  Yep.  Are a few on a power trip?  I suppose.  But...think back to the games when officials have become confrontational.  When they've become animated (in a bad way) or had their radars up.   Generally speaking, the game itself, the people around it, and yeah...parents have been the ones creating that environment.
Think about a high school game.  How many people involved in that game are there almost exclusively and specifically for the benefit of the kids playing in that game?   The coaches are there most of the time for the kids, but also for their own jobs.  They want to win, and the kids on that particular team are their tools that season.  Parents have agendas.  They just do.  Officials?  If you think their motivation is extra money, you're just not informed about what they make.  ($75 for a football game and many drive 50 miles + and a Friday night starts for them at 5:30 when they arrive and ends about 10:00.  Taking into account travel time and expenses, you can do the math)
Making fun of the uniform they are required to wear?  Really?  And putting all of them into the same category?  Really? Why single out the people HERE who referee and assume everyone ELSE doing that job is an incompetent boob on a power trip?
When you walk into any room, there is someone in charge whose job it is to make sure whatever goes on in that room takes the shape and form it's supposed to.  In a basketball gym, those people are the referees.  Like it or not.  If they reacted to every BS thing they heard (many profane and more of them highly personal), they'd be institutionalized.
WAY too many people put themselves above the fray and sling insults at groups of people with no bearing or basis.  You know why officiating seems to be getting worse?  Same reasons politicians are getting worse.  Who wants the job?  What moron would walk into a gym and listen to Mrs. Johnson, who doesn't know the rules from Moby Dick scream personal insults for an hour and a half?  How many of us here would do a job for little money when all the feedback we get is negative and people with agendas are playing vocal judge and jury for the entirety of the work day?   I would encourage anyone who's b!tching about them without experience to give it a shot.  Then come back here and vitriolically insult them.
You either respect the position and their responsibility or you don't.  If you don't, you're the problem.  Not the solution.   And no.  I have never officiated a game of any kind save a little league baseball game 20 years ago.
 

Old - you asked where the line stops for what might be considered inconsequential and then listed teachers, trauma surgeons, and first responders? A referee is not on the same level here - serious consequences exist in those professions. Life or death and long term health and success type consequences.

Responding to the guys in here who ref for their kids or local organizations - good on you. I’m sure you’re all high character people who try to do things the right way. My post was likely poorly worded, but my criticism was directed at the TV Teddy’s of middle school basketball. Plenty of crap happens that no one should have to deal with, especially at that pay level, but that doesn’t justify abusing the “power” granted to you.

Bringing those two thought together - imagine what teachers deal with. The same kids, for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, on terrible salaries.


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[HinnyHoosier]

Bringing those two thought together - imagine what teachers deal with. The same kids, for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, on terrible salaries.


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If this tells you anything, they're quitting at record pace in this state.


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[RaceToTheTop]

It's amazing how when watching an IU game how I feel the officials are doing a crappy job compared to watching a game where I don't have a dog in the fight.

We are biased as fans....kind of our job.  I keep the scorebook for a local high school team and have gotten to know refs and their reffing styles over the past thirty years or so.  Have to say there are just about one in twenty that I feel aren't fit for the job....and those tend to be the ones that I am just seeing for the first time or two which means they are pretty new to the varsity level, so there is a good chance that they will grow into it.  Guys that ref for twenty years or more don't stick around if they aren't competent.

Let's take Teddy Valentine for example.  The truth is if it was just about calling a game....he was adequate.  His problem was one of personality, not ability.  And that was ultimately the reason power conferences stopped hiring him.  As IU fans we hated him because he seemed to intentionally egg on confrontations, but I think if you track the numbers the calls he made were in line with other officials.  That said, keeping your personality out of the way is something he failed at.  I'm not a fan of an official being the 'show'.  I've seen officials at the high school level interact with a rabid fan in such a way to calm the fan down and make the entire experience much more enjoyable for everyone.  Something as simply as an official laughing at a particularly funny jab given to them by a fan typically helps calm the fan base.

[RaceToTheTop]

3 hours ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

If this tells you anything, they're quitting at record pace in this state.


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Part of it is the amount that players are questioning every call, particularly the obvious ones.....and it seems to be a reflection of a coach not controlling their own players.

[Brass Cannon]

Just now, brumdog45 said:

Part of it is the amount that players are questioning every call, particularly the obvious ones.....and it seems to be a reflection of a coach not controlling their own players.

I think he was talking about teachers. 

[RaceToTheTop]

6 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I think he was talking about teachers. 

Okay, didn't catch that.  I am a teacher and can back that up.  Also have an incredible shortage of those going into the profession.....and in their infinite wisdom the state DOE instituted a teacher testing program which further removes candidates in an already short field.  At this point there are something like 2,000 teaching positions filled in the state by people without teaching credentials.

To give you an idea about what's happening with these tests -- the first year they changed the test needed to receive a middle school math endorsement, only 2 of the 50 teaching candidates passed it.  The cut scores for most of these tests are set at unrealistic levels.

[Chips&Dipo]

3 hours ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

If this tells you anything, they're quitting at record pace in this state.


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That is also because they haven't got a pay raise in over five years. My friend and sister have the same salary they had when they started teaching over five years ago. They haven't even got a cost of living adjustment. Plus, they have to pay for many of the supplies they need to do their job. But hey, at least we saved the tax payer that extra $1.25 a year!

[RaceToTheTop]

4 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Old - you asked where the line stops for what might be considered inconsequential and then listed teachers, trauma surgeons, and first responders? A referee is not on the same level here - serious consequences exist in those professions. Life or death and long term health and success type consequences.

Responding to the guys in here who ref for their kids or local organizations - good on you. I’m sure you’re all high character people who try to do things the right way. My post was likely poorly worded, but my criticism was directed at the TV Teddy’s of middle school basketball. Plenty of crap happens that no one should have to deal with, especially at that pay level, but that doesn’t justify abusing the “power” granted to you.

Bringing those two thought together - imagine what teachers deal with. The same kids, for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, on terrible salaries.


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What's strange is that we can say with the same logic that coaches have 'inconsequential' jobs as well, yet fans create web sites wanting to fire them.  And the truth is we don't want them fired for something that is long term -- building their player's character -- but rather because they don't win games.  This isn't pointed at any particular coach or poster, just an observation.

[Walking Boot of Doom]

What's strange is that we can say with the same logic that coaches have 'inconsequential' jobs as well, yet fans create web sites wanting to fire them.  And the truth is we don't want them fired for something that is long term -- building their player's character -- but rather because they don't win games.  This isn't pointed at any particular coach or poster, just an observation.

Present bias. A strong behavioral trait of humans.


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[jonz44]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:19 PM, Old Friend said:

I don't think you can paint with this broad brush about referees/officials or whatever word you apply to them.  They officiate, therefore, they are "officials."    I've coached for 22 years.   Most of them have been great to work with and talk to.  Most have no ego.  Most are there for the kids; and many officiate basketball, baseball, and football as well.

Above there is a comment about this position being "inconsequential."   Really?  Okay then; other than first responders,  "trauma surgeon," "teacher," "for "suicide prevention specialist;" what jobs ARE consequential?  If not someone who's there entirely for the benefit of other people while having to listen to every disillusioned parent b!tch about his every move while making (after travel expenses) very little money; then who? Lawyers?  Insurance agents?  Accountants?

Are there bad referees?  Yep.  Are a few on a power trip?  I suppose.  But...think back to the games when officials have become confrontational.  When they've become animated (in a bad way) or had their radars up.   Generally speaking, the game itself, the people around it, and yeah...parents have been the ones creating that environment.

Think about a high school game.  How many people involved in that game are there almost exclusively and specifically for the benefit of the kids playing in that game?   The coaches are there most of the time for the kids, but also for their own jobs.  They want to win, and the kids on that particular team are their tools that season.  Parents have agendas.  They just do.  Officials?  If you think their motivation is extra money, you're just not informed about what they make.  ($75 for a football game and many drive 50 miles + and a Friday night starts for them at 5:30 when they arrive and ends about 10:00.  Taking into account travel time and expenses, you can do the math)

Making fun of the uniform they are required to wear?  Really?  And putting all of them into the same category?  Really? Why single out the people HERE who referee and assume everyone ELSE doing that job is an incompetent boob on a power trip?

When you walk into any room, there is someone in charge whose job it is to make sure whatever goes on in that room takes the shape and form it's supposed to.  In a basketball gym, those people are the referees.  Like it or not.  If they reacted to every BS thing they heard (many profane and more of them highly personal), they'd be institutionalized.

WAY too many people put themselves above the fray and sling insults at groups of people with no bearing or basis.  You know why officiating seems to be getting worse?  Same reasons politicians are getting worse.  Who wants the job?  What moron would walk into a gym and listen to Mrs. Johnson, who doesn't know the rules from Moby Dick scream personal insults for an hour and a half?  How many of us here would do a job for little money when all the feedback we get is negative and people with agendas are playing vocal judge and jury for the entirety of the work day?   I would encourage anyone who's b!tching about them without experience to give it a shot.  Then come back here and vitriolically insult them.

You either respect the position and their responsibility or you don't.  If you don't, you're the problem.  Not the solution.   And no.  I have never officiated a game of any kind save a little league baseball game 20 years ago.

 

Excellent post! I coached youth sports as my son was growing up. Baseball for about 8 years and basketball about 3-4. I have to admit that at times I was hard on refs/umps the first couple of years but the longer I was involved the more understanding I became. 

1) it's just a difficult job any way you cut it. Split second judgment calls required constantly and somebody is ALWAYS going to be unhappy, 2) parents can be ahole's and many of them teach their kids it's ok to be that way, 3) most of them sincerely love the game and are just trying to give back to something that has brought them much happiness. 

I've had more than one come up to me days or weeks later and say coach, I blew that call in such and such situation. 

I've thought about officiating myself and I'm not sure I could handle it. 

[ccgeneral]

 @MattGlenesk: Indy-area boys  scoring leaders:

[Alford Bailey]

Watched the replay vs Zionsville. Really like Armaan.