(2019) PF Trayce Jackson-Davis to INDIANA

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

55 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

HoosierHoopster, this isn’t directed at you. Love having you here and think you really contribute. But I’ve heard so many times that Trayce needs to develop his midrange jumper, and that will get him to the NBA. I haven’t ranted about this issue in awhile so here goes. Shoot, maybe it will even bring mdn82 out of hiding. 
 

The midrange jumper (outside of the rare situation) is the dumbest shot in basketball. You won’t convince me otherwise. The game has moved away from it. There are very few players for whom any higher volume midrange jumper is a good shot, and they happen to be the best basketball players in the world. We’re talking a handful of guys here. It’s a bad shot for good shooters, and a worse shot for below average shooters. If shooting isn’t TJD’s strength, even if he improves, why encourage a below average shooter to take more of the worst shot in the game. 

 

To me, Trayce’s unique strength is his ability to cover ground fast. The basket is always two quick steps away from Trayce. Better ball movement (and yes having shooters to capitalize on good looks) creates seams for him to zoom in for the high percentage shot.

 

If I could pick something for Trayce to improve on, it would be passing. Remember Juwan’s passing? He’d survey the court fast and could make a great pass. If Trayce can prove he’ll deliver to the open shooter or some sweet dump passes, that will open things up just as well. Coaches aren’t dumb. They will park their defenders even if Trayce does develop the midrange jumper because even hitting them at an average clip (45% ?) produces junk offense. The more you take, the worse it is. I also think it highly unlikely Woodson wants his All American PF/C spending a lot of time on the perimeter. Put him where he’s excellent. As Adranga called it in his explanation of the 4-1 motion offense, the Dunker’s Spot. 
 

I think with better team off-ball movement and a commitment by Trayce to become a passer, he’ll see more opportunities for high percentage shots at the basket, and the team overall will be more efficient. And yes obviously improving his skill set and finishing will help him. But counting on one guy to just win 1-on-1 matchups isn’t great basketball and is a tough go in the B1G. We’ll have a much higher ceiling if our talented players also learn ball movement. 

For a big man, if you can hit in the 15-18 foot range, you're going to be set going into the NBA and the. Grow from there. Tim Duncan and LaMarcus Aldridge made a living there. 

[Stuhoo]

43 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

For a big man, if you can hit in the 15-18 foot range, you're going to be set going into the NBA and the. Grow from there. Tim Duncan and LaMarcus Aldridge made a living there. 

 

For TJD's NBA prospects it will be far more attractive if he develops a repeatable stroke from three point land.

He's not ever going to be Tim Duncan, but he could be Thomas Bryant, OG, Juwan, or a guy like Marq Morris--a guy that has to be guarded from the NBA 3pt line.

He doesn't even have to show many results from three--just a reasonable stroke and results at his eventual pro day.

 

[KzooHoosier82]

58 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

For TJD's NBA prospects it will be far more attractive if he develops a repeatable stroke from three point land.

He's not ever going to be Tim Duncan, but he could be Thomas Bryant, OG, Juwan, or a guy like Marq Morris--a guy that has to be guarded from the NBA 3pt line.

He doesn't even have to show many results from three--just a reasonable stroke and results at his eventual pro day.

 

The 3pt shot is crucial for his success in the NBA. Without it, he’s Juwan Morgan at best. He’s simply not big enough to post up on 4s and 5s in the league and not quick/explosive enough to mimic a Kawahi or Tatum. Just ask Caleb Swanigan how his pro career is going. 

[Demo]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

 

For TJD's NBA prospects it will be far more attractive if he develops a repeatable stroke from three point land.

He's not ever going to be Tim Duncan, but he could be Thomas Bryant, OG, Juwan, or a guy like Marq Morris--a guy that has to be guarded from the NBA 3pt line.

He doesn't even have to show many results from three--just a reasonable stroke and results at his eventual pro day.

 

Hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see that stroke extending to 23’ at all. The hand position, the body lean, the flat trajectory, all problems. Looking forward to seeing what he’s cleaned up this summer. The comp I’ve kind of settled on for him is Tristan Thompson. That guy has made a bunch of jack out of rim running, finishing, garbage baskets, rebounding, defense, relentless energy and just being a general pain in the @$$. Also speaks to the changes in the game that 10 years ago Thompson was the #4 pick in the draft and Trayce, who’s had a better college career, is struggling to just get drafted.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

 

For TJD's NBA prospects it will be far more attractive if he develops a repeatable stroke from three point land.

He's not ever going to be Tim Duncan, but he could be Thomas Bryant, OG, Juwan, or a guy like Marq Morris--a guy that has to be guarded from the NBA 3pt line.

He doesn't even have to show many results from three--just a reasonable stroke and results at his eventual pro day.

 

None of those guys remotely compare to his game. His NBA role will be catching lobs, rolling, rebounding and doing dirty work. He is Tristan Thompson with a better offensive game. He will play the 5 in the NBA. Maybe as his career goes along he ends up like an Al Horford but as of now he's Tristan Thompson. 

[HoosierHoopster]

3 hours ago, Stromboli said:

HoosierHoopster, this isn’t directed at you. Love having you here and think you really contribute. But I’ve heard so many times that Trayce needs to develop his midrange jumper, and that will get him to the NBA. I haven’t ranted about this issue in awhile so here goes. Shoot, maybe it will even bring mdn82 out of hiding. 
 

The midrange jumper (outside of the rare situation) is the dumbest shot in basketball. You won’t convince me otherwise. The game has moved away from it. There are very few players for whom any higher volume midrange jumper is a good shot, and they happen to be the best basketball players in the world. We’re talking a handful of guys here. It’s a bad shot for good shooters, and a worse shot for below average shooters. If shooting isn’t TJD’s strength, even if he improves, why encourage a below average shooter to take more of the worst shot in the game. 

 

To me, Trayce’s unique strength is his ability to cover ground fast. The basket is always two quick steps away from Trayce. Better ball movement (and yes having shooters to capitalize on good looks) creates seams for him to zoom in for the high percentage shot.

 

If I could pick something for Trayce to improve on, it would be passing. Remember Juwan’s passing? He’d survey the court fast and could make a great pass. If Trayce can prove he’ll deliver to the open shooter or some sweet dump passes, that will open things up just as well. Coaches aren’t dumb. They will park their defenders even if Trayce does develop the midrange jumper because even hitting them at an average clip (45% ?) produces junk offense. The more you take, the worse it is. I also think it highly unlikely Woodson wants his All American PF/C spending a lot of time on the perimeter. Put him where he’s excellent. As Adranga called it in his explanation of the 4-1 motion offense, the Dunker’s Spot. 
 

I think with better team off-ball movement and a commitment by Trayce to become a passer, he’ll see more opportunities for high percentage shots at the basket, and the team overall will be more efficient. And yes obviously improving his skill set and finishing will help him. But counting on one guy to just win 1-on-1 matchups isn’t great basketball and is a tough go in the B1G. We’ll have a much higher ceiling if our talented players also learn ball movement. 

Appreciated. 
I wasn’t talking midrange though generally. To be a legit NBA prospect, he needs to show consistent shooting and that includes an outside shot. The proverbial big is largely dead in the NBA, you need to move more like a wing and you need to be able to step outside and knock down shots. 
Trayce helps us in many ways, he’s a clearly tremendous All American level player. But there’s a reason he and Woodson are talking about him stepping outside and shooting — just as Juwan did (with mixed success). And i love Juwan as a player, and he did work on his outside shot and he dud make an NBA team.

For what it’s worth I’m maybe more optimistic on TJD’s ability to show an outside shot than some. He’s got a good stroke. He was clearly limited by CAM and that, uh, “offense.” I think we’ll see a decent level of shooting level from him this year

side note, on my phone deliberately ignorring a meeting i’m in, sorry if what I’ve posted is already covered in the thread

[Stuhoo]

19 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

None of those guys remotely compare to his game. His NBA role will be catching lobs, rolling, rebounding and doing dirty work. He is Tristan Thompson with a better offensive game. He will play the 5 in the NBA. Maybe as his career goes along he ends up like an Al Horford but as of now he's Tristan Thompson. 

Only without a Kardashian

 

 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

1 minute ago, Stuhoo said:

Only without a Kardashian

 

 

That's a positive. 

[Stromboli]

2 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

For a big man, if you can hit in the 15-18 foot range, you're going to be set going into the NBA and the. Grow from there. Tim Duncan and LaMarcus Aldridge made a living there. 

Nah. Tim Duncan was hurting his team by taking a high volume of midrange shots. I’ll look up Aldridge too, if you need me to. 
 

I said Trayce at 45% would be a bad shot. Never once did Duncan hit 45%, and was often far below it. I don’t understand the nostalgia here. Four out of 10 of Tim Duncan’s attempts were going in. And he’d get all of 8 points out of those 10 attempts. Duncan wasn’t really even great at the midrange, with his career percentage around 40%. Yes, he made a ton of them. But missed a lot more. Later in his career his percentages were worse than shown in the table below, but he kept chucking them up. I know you were being hyperbolic when you say he made a living out there. Duncan was awesome, but it wasn’t because of his midrange jumper, banked in or not. 
 

To bring it back to Trayce. I haven’t talked to any NBA scouts. Ever. I just don’t think NBA scouts are out there looking for a great midrange game. As now Stuhoo and HoosierHoopster and others have pointed out, developing a serviceable 3 would help. 
 

I can proudly say I’ve never watched any sort of Kardashian episode, and wouldn’t wish that world on Trayce. I have watched plenty of the Bachelor/Bachelorette. Not even ashamed. This last season of Bachelor in Paradise was a real doozy!
 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

6 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

Nah. Tim Duncan was hurting his team by taking a high volume of midrange shots. I’ll look up Aldridge too, if you need me to. 
 

I said Trayce at 45% would be a bad shot. Never once did Duncan hit 45%, and was often far below it. I don’t understand the nostalgia here. Four out of 10 of Tim Duncan’s attempts were going in. And he’d get all of 8 points out of those 10 attempts. Duncan wasn’t really even great at the midrange, with his career percentage around 40%. Yes, he made a ton of them. But missed a lot more. Later in his career his percentages were worse than shown in the table below, but he kept chucking them up. I know you were being hyperbolic when you say he made a living out there. Duncan was awesome, but it wasn’t because of his midrange jumper, banked in or not. 
 

To bring it back to Trayce. I haven’t talked to any NBA scouts. Ever. I just don’t think NBA scouts are out there looking for a great midrange game. As now Stuhoo and HoosierHoopster and others have pointed out, developing a serviceable 3 would help. 
 

I can proudly say I’ve never watched any sort of Kardashian episode, and wouldn’t wish that world on Trayce. I have watched plenty of the Bachelor/Bachelorette. Not even ashamed. This last season of Bachelor in Paradise was a real doozy!
 

Because shooting 45% from mid range isn't bad. Just like shooting 35% from 3 isn't bad. 

[Stromboli]

18 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Because shooting 45% from mid range isn't bad. Just like shooting 35% from 3 isn't bad. 

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be hilarious here. Please say yes. 
 

0.35 x 3 = 1.05 pts per attempt. Pretty good!

0.45 x 2 = 0.90 pts per attempt. Pretty bad!

[Stuhoo]

Just now, Stromboli said:

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be hilarious here. Please say yes. 
 

0.35 x 3 = 1.05 pts per attempt. Pretty good!

0.45 x 2 = 0.90 pts per attempt. Pretty bad!

And, it's easier to get an offensive rebound on a missed three.

[Brass Cannon]

The only reason Trayce developing a mid range jumper will help him get to the pros is if it opens up more space for him to improve his inside game. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

4 hours ago, Stromboli said:

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be hilarious here. Please say yes. 
 

0.35 x 3 = 1.05 pts per attempt. Pretty good!

0.45 x 2 = 0.90 pts per attempt. Pretty bad!

That's fine. An open shot is an open shot. You shoot open shots. 

[Stromboli]

26 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

That's fine. An open shot is an open shot. You shoot open shots. 

- DeVonte Green

      - Loaded Chicken Sandwich 

[Stuhoo]

Oh man—a sandwich showdown throw down!

May the better bread and fillings win. 
(we will keep score by tabulating points per possession, and tomato sauce/mozzarella  quality)

[IU Scott]

10 hours ago, Stromboli said:

HoosierHoopster, this isn’t directed at you. Love having you here and think you really contribute. But I’ve heard so many times that Trayce needs to develop his midrange jumper, and that will get him to the NBA. I haven’t ranted about this issue in awhile so here goes. Shoot, maybe it will even bring mdn82 out of hiding. 
 

The midrange jumper (outside of the rare situation) is the dumbest shot in basketball. You won’t convince me otherwise. The game has moved away from it. There are very few players for whom any higher volume midrange jumper is a good shot, and they happen to be the best basketball players in the world. We’re talking a handful of guys here. It’s a bad shot for good shooters, and a worse shot for below average shooters. If shooting isn’t TJD’s strength, even if he improves, why encourage a below average shooter to take more of the worst shot in the game. 

 

To me, Trayce’s unique strength is his ability to cover ground fast. The basket is always two quick steps away from Trayce. Better ball movement (and yes having shooters to capitalize on good looks) creates seams for him to zoom in for the high percentage shot.

 

If I could pick something for Trayce to improve on, it would be passing. Remember Juwan’s passing? He’d survey the court fast and could make a great pass. If Trayce can prove he’ll deliver to the open shooter or some sweet dump passes, that will open things up just as well. Coaches aren’t dumb. They will park their defenders even if Trayce does develop the midrange jumper because even hitting them at an average clip (45% ?) produces junk offense. The more you take, the worse it is. I also think it highly unlikely Woodson wants his All American PF/C spending a lot of time on the perimeter. Put him where he’s excellent. As Adranga called it in his explanation of the 4-1 motion offense, the Dunker’s Spot. 
 

I think with better team off-ball movement and a commitment by Trayce to become a passer, he’ll see more opportunities for high percentage shots at the basket, and the team overall will be more efficient. And yes obviously improving his skill set and finishing will help him. But counting on one guy to just win 1-on-1 matchups isn’t great basketball and is a tough go in the B1G. We’ll have a much higher ceiling if our talented players also learn ball movement. 

I am sorry but this line of thinking is what is hurting offenses in college basketball. Any open shot is a quality shot no matter if it is a layup a mid range shot or a 3.  It is funny that all of this analytics tells us that shooting more 3's or layups is the most effecient offense.  If this the best way then why is scoring so far down compared to the past.  IU of the 90's with Cheaney, Henderson and Anderson made a living on the 15 foot shot.  They averaged over 80 points a game without shooting a high volume of 3's.

[Brass Cannon]

1 hour ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

That's fine. An open shot is an open shot. You shoot open shots. 

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

[hoosierbgh]

6 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

Yes, of course, but then there is the opposing defense working to take away those preferred open shots. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

7 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

And if that offensive gets an open shot from 15-18 feet, shoot it. Why would we tell Trayce to go shoot 3s when he can't hit from 15 feet?